3d6 in order....

[shadzar]

So everyone knows about it and everyone hates it, but where does the dislike for rolling 3d6 in order for ability scores come from?

pre-3rd you didnt get mass bonuses for ability scores, and many people on here dont like ability checks in favor of d20 system anyway.

leaving out the option of NWPs, you only had the ability checks when you tried to do weird things. NWPs like 3rd skills/feats were jsut modifiers to ability scores anyway.

so where did the min/max even come from so 3d6 in order wouldnt work? were that many people sad they couldn't play a paladin, ranger or bard?

let get real for once and explain your reasons for needing to control as best as possible your characters ability scores, rather than let them be a product of the world and luck to how your character was born, and you jsut use that to play. make sure you mention which edition your reason pertains to since each changes the nature of ability scores, and any options used like NWPs and such. why does it really matter to YOU?

[infected slut princess]

Let's answer your question by rolling up a character.

Str 8
Dex 9
Con 12
Int 12
Wis 12
Cha 8

This character sucks anal juice.

Now in the same party, let's roll up some more characters.

Str 6
Dex 10
Con 10
Int 11
Wis 14
Cha 10

Str 8
Dex 11
Con 12
Int 5
Wis 15
Cha 12

Str 12
Dex 9
Con 14
Int 10
Wis 9
Cha 6

----------

Basically, all of these characters are losers.

[Ancient History]

It's a matter of options and choice as well. In oD&D you couldn't be a paladin unless you made some amazingly lucky rolls during chargen. The requisite ability scores for classes basically meant you were often highly restricted in the characters you could play...and honestly, the whole system of procedurally generated characters with a random seed is a bit weird in the freer option-rich environment of modergn gaming.

[hogarth]

[..] pre-3rd you didnt get mass bonuses for ability scores [..]

Wrong.

An 18 Dex in AD&D gives a +4 to AC and an 18 Dex in 3E gives a +4 to AC.

An 18 Con in AD&D gives a +4 to hit points/level and an 18 Con in 3E gives a +4 to hit points/level.

An 18 Cha in AD&D gives you MORE than a +4 to monsters liking you and an 18 Cha in 3E gives you a +4 to monsters liking you.

[Judging__Eagle]

It's really simple. I don't want to play Rogue.

I want my table top game character; that I have to actually spend time thinking about equipping, fleshing out, and developing a personality for, to not die because of lolrandumb stuff like "your scores are too low".

While 3d6 in order is good for a wargame where each player controls 1 leader, and 2-50 fodder soldiers. See what ISP posted, those characters are the "fighters" who you don't care too much about if an Ogre kills and eats. If any of the rolled characters has "notable" abilities they get to be a real character like a Spell-caster or Cleric. To say that's not how you played your OD&D or 1e AD&D games is disingenuous, or a sign of incredible lack of imagination.

However, most of the time managing a small army is the opposite of what you want your game to be like; so simply using the alternate stat assignment methods is better.

My 2e group preferred either the "roll out six arrays in order, place into a grid/matrix, you can only use one stat from each column" or the "roll a large bunch of dice, add their values to create your stats, no summed dice can result in values 'over' 18" methods. Neither actually generated all stellar stats, neither actually guaranteed an 18. However your stats could easily hit 16 once or twice, which was good for the 10% xp bonus.

Today we're not trying to shoehorn a wargame into being an RPG; because we're not seven-year olds who have nothing to do with our lives except roll up characters to feed to the meatgrinder that is low level game play with the hope of reaching beyond that. Instead we're trying to frame our RPGs along the material that actually informed the creation of RPGs.

If our characters can't be "John Carpenter" of ERB's Sword & Planet stories, then Ernie Gygax was not only a non-crediting, monomaniac, but also lying one who liked to pull bait-and-switch. The source material of D&D is "sword & planet"; full stop. Any, and all arguments otherwise require the speaker to talk about what their 'specific vision' actually is, because their vision doesn't jive at all with the actual source material Ernie Gygax pointed Rob Kuntz towards for their D&D games.

If our characters can't be jumping around like mini-supermans who can crush enemies skulls with our bare fists; we at least expect to be able to conquer inter-galactic empires in distant dimensions starting with nothing but a loincloth and a ball-peen hammer.

[Red_Rob]

Oh goody, another Shadzar "What is wrong with X" thread. This will go well.

[shadzar]

@hogarth

in WotC editions you get the same thing, plus save boosts, boosts from skills, what else? the numebr of bonuses based on scores are much more than just those you mention.

It's a matter of options and choice as well. In oD&D you couldn't be a paladin unless you made some amazingly lucky rolls during chargen. The requisite ability scores for classes basically meant you were often highly restricted in the characters you could play...and honestly, the whole system of procedurally generated characters with a random seed is a bit weird in the freer option-rich environment of modergn gaming.

that "option-rich" environment you mention existed back then too once GURPs came out, but still AD&D was on the top of the heap.

why do you really need more options than just the character?

in the above set of scores rolled, i see the following in order for example:

Wizard
Cleric
Thief
Fighter

all of them have scores above average (9~10)

where did all the options that took the game through 30 years come from prior to feats/skills? NWPs weren't always used, and not everyone liked PO. it was only a few years after PO came out (1995) that WotC bought T$R (1997).

what options really were missing prior? sure if you rolled really bad, then obviously just roll again. getting all 6's and below is not a playable character, it died during training, have a memorial for it and get a new one before the game even starts.

also those rolls made above are pretty much the points array without going overboard with 18 in a single stats used in "modern" gaming environment.

so is it just the modern systems that make 3d6 in order not work, or its inflated number of "options" (that i will read as "lists o shit" or "fake options")?

@JE masturbating over his hate for Gygax

the game says CAN emulate, not ALWAYS MUST emulate stupid shit that not everyone wants or like, such as John Carter. it seems you really love 4th edition the medieval fantasy simulacrum of Marvel superheroes game.

[hogarth]

If our characters can't be "John Carpenter" of ERB's Sword & Planet stories, then Ernie Gygax was not only a non-crediting, monomaniac, but also lying one who liked to pull bait-and-switch.

In Gary Gygax's question & answer discussion at ENWorld, someone asked him about rolling up stats and he admitted that he just let players keep rolling up characters until they got a set of stats that they liked.

[infected slut princess]

"Wow, these stats totally suck. I want to reroll."

<Repeat x 100>

"Wow, after an hour of rerolling, I now have 3 18s in my stats, and no score less than a 15! I can pick the class I wanted and rock this game. I am ready to play!"

That shit drives me nuts.

There is also THIS awesome variation:

PLAYER: "Wow, my stats suck, I want to reroll."

DM: "YOU CANNOT REROLL ANY OF YOUR STATS. YOU MUST PLAY WITH THIS CHARACTER."

PLAYER: "Oh damn. Well when the adventure starts, my character picks a fight with the city guard and gets totally murdered. Oh well, I guess I get to roll up a new character!"

[shadzar]

"Wow, these stats totally suck. I want to reroll."

<Repeat x 100>

"Wow, after an hour of rerolling, I now have 3 18s in my stats, and no score less than a 15! I can pick the class I wanted and rock this game. I am ready to play!"

That shit drives me nuts.

"Munchkin go home."

the only response you should get to what you said. you are implying that all modern gamers are just munchkins in disguise, which i will not totally disagree with.

[Grek]

There you have it. The real reason why 3d6 in order is terrible:

Even people like shadzar and Gary Gygax who are nominally advocating it don't actually use it in play. They realize that actually trying to play a character who rolled all 6s in the same party as someone else rolled all 16s is ludicrous.

[JigokuBosatsu]

If our characters can't be "John Carpenter" of ERB's Sword & Planet storie

This John Carpenter?

[hogarth]

@hogarth

in WotC editions you get the same thing, plus save boosts, boosts from skills, what else? the numebr of bonuses based on scores are much more than just those you mention.

This may shock you, but high stats also gave you save bonuses and skill (NWP) boosts in AD&D. In fact, a high stat gave you more of a skill boost in AD&D.

Are you sure you've actually played AD&D before?

[K]

I don't want to RP a heroic fantasy character who is also supposed to be be stupid, weak, or ugly. The 3d6-in-order produces those characters often enough to seem like a design.

Fantasy can handle clumsy, sickly, or foolish, but the dump stat in Str, Int, or Cha is basically an exercise in letting the DM and game make you feel powerless and worthless.

It doesn't matter if the actual stat doesn't have a significant modifier to roll because people will spend entire sessions making jokes about your character with an Int of 4.

[echoVanguard]

This John Carpenter?

I believe JE meant "John Carter" as in "of Mars". Although I must admit that I would probably take an offered opportunity to play as John Carpenter in a Call of Cthulhu game.

echo

[JigokuBosatsu]

I know, that's why I was poking fun.

And now that you mention it, a John Carpenter-themed 80s CoC game would be awesome.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CTVFlMy5kdw

[shadzar]

There you have it. The real reason why 3d6 in order is terrible:

Even people like shadzar and Gary Gygax who are nominally advocating it don't actually use it in play. They realize that actually trying to play a character who rolled all 6s in the same party as someone else rolled all 16s is ludicrous.

no, you are stupid and just dont understand the game s all this proves. nobody would roll all 6s or all 16s. the point is the average range, visavis the rolls above being so close to later point arrays...

learn something about statistics. all6s is comparable to all 15s statistically speaking, both are as unlikely as the other.

both are in the 4th position from the ends of the scale.

@hogarth

in WotC editions you get the same thing, plus save boosts, boosts from skills, what else? the numebr of bonuses based on scores are much more than just those you mention.

This may shock you, but high stats also gave you save bonuses and skill (NWP) boosts in AD&D. In fact, a high stat gave you more of a skill boost in AD&D.

Are you sure you've actually played AD&D before?

lets re-read the first post maybe?

leaving out the option of NWPs, you only had the ability checks when you tried to do weird things. NWPs like 3rd skills/feats were just modifiers to ability scores anyway.

skills in 3.x were not optional but required, while NWPs were not a required part of the system. it was included in various places because it assumed that those people using them would like to have the details for the NPCs. not an incorrect assumption, but also just as easily thrown out of modules as ignoring chapter 5 of the PHB.

lets check the save bonuses shall we?

CON: Poison Save bonus at a score of 19....you arent rolling a 19 on 3d6

wow. a whole 1 save that gets a boost, and only if you roll a 19 on a range of 3~18.

dwarves get racial saves based on CON vs magic.

dwarves get a +1 to CON, making them the ONLY race that can even get the poison save bonus from CON at chargen.

halflings get progressive saves against RSW and Spells for each 3.5 points of CON.

yeah that is a whole lot of save boosts from ability scores.



are you sure you actually played AD&D before?

I don't want to RP a heroic fantasy character who is also supposed to be be stupid, weak, or ugly. The 3d6-in-order produces those characters often enough to seem like a design.

who said it was made to ONLY play heroic fantasy? this is something not every adheres to

Fantasy can handle clumsy, sickly, or foolish, but the dump stat in Str, Int, or Cha is basically an exercise in letting the DM and game make you feel powerless and worthless.

this is a group problem. you view the numbers as something other than they are and try to assign value to the payers based on the number their character has. have you tried not being an asshole to the other people playing? maybe play D&D rather than a penis waving contest?

It doesn't matter if the actual stat doesn't have a significant modifier to roll because people will spend entire sessions making jokes about your character with an Int of 4.

see above. try playing D&D rather than having a penis waiving contest. or try playing with people that arent complete juvenile assholes?

[hogarth]

To be fair, if you ignore the parts of shadzar's posts that are complete bullshit, then his posts aren't complete bullshit. Tautologically speaking, that is.

[deaddmwalking]

why does it really matter to YOU?

I've played my share of random characters. I'm done with that, thank you very much.

I don't play 1st or 2nd edition anymore because I enjoyed the ability to customize characters that came with 3.x.

3d6 in order is a step backwards for me.

And while 'all 6s' is statistically unlikely, it is totally possible, as is 'all 15s' or even close. Someone with 5 scores below 10 and someone with 5 scores above 14 can and does happen in a party. I don't find that conducive to my fun, regardless of which side I happen to be on.

[Red_Rob]

lets check the save bonuses shall we?

CON: Poison Save bonus at a score of 19....you arent rolling a 19 on 3d6

wow. a whole 1 save that gets a boost, and only if you roll a 19 on a range of 3~18.

dwarves get racial saves based on CON vs magic.

dwarves get a +1 to CON, making them the ONLY race that can even get the poison save bonus from CON at chargen.

halflings get progressive saves against RSW and Spells for each 3.5 points of CON.

yeah that is a whole lot of save boosts from ability scores.



are you sure you actually played AD&D before?

Really?

Really, really?

*sigh*

Dexterity
Defensive Adjustment applies to a character's saving throws (see Glossary) against attacks that can be dodged--lightning bolts, boulders, etc. It also modifies the character's Armor Class.

Wisdom
Magical Defense Adjustment listed on Table 5 applies to saving throws against magical spells that attack the mind: beguiling, charm, fear, hypnosis, illusions, possession, suggestion, etc. These bonuses and penalties are applied automatically, without any conscious effort from the character.

[Kaelik]

To be fair, if you ignore the parts of shadzar's posts that are complete bullshit, then his posts aren't complete bullshit. Tautologically speaking, that is.

It's really easy to ignore all the parts of shadzar's posts that are complete bullshit without missing any of the parts that are worth reading.

You just put him on ignore and then never ever click to see his posts.

[Cyberzombie]

So everyone knows about it and everyone hates it, but where does the dislike for rolling 3d6 in order for ability scores come from?

The real question is why anyone would like it. I can't see many positives to it.

You can't play the kind of character you want to play. If you wanted a fighter but rolled crap strength, well tough shit, you're playing a rogue or a wizard.

Not to mention, your character very likely ends up being mediocre and thus sucks for life. Especially back in AD&D where you needed a 15 minimum for even a +1 bonus, you were going to roll up a lot of duds, and someone in the group gets lucky and you get stat envy.

Rolling for stats is an archaic mechanic that game designers have since figured out sucks because nobody wants to be the sidekick. There's no advantage to being the fighter with 12 strength traveling with Conan. You just suck. Hell, AD&D even gave Conan an XP bonus you didn't get, so he even leveled faster.

[infected slut princess]

Even better: You may recall how some classes get 10% bonus XP if they have a 16 or better in their primary stat.

[rampaging-poet]

You can't play the kind of character you want to play. If you wanted a fighter but rolled crap strength, well tough shit, you're playing a rogue or a wizard.

Having lurked previous shadzar threads, I can say with some certainty he considers that a feature rather than a bug. In shadzar's D&D, you show up, generate a random character (which is somehow different than the DM just handing you a character), and explore the world the DM has set out for you. Just like in real life you don't get to choose how strong and tough you are, and you have to make the most of what the Random Number Generator gave you. While I can definitely see the appeal of such games, I don't think they are the best or only way to play. Shadzar does.

[shadzar]

I don't play 1st or 2nd edition anymore because I enjoyed the ability to customize characters that came with 3.x.

You can't play the kind of character you want to play.

i am thinking this is the very nature of the beast of modern gaming. as i have been thinking in previous threads, and this one using an extreme in ability scores....people are less interested in playing the GAME, and more interested in emulating some character from some other place.

i posit that ability scores could be easily remove all together and D&D could still be played.

i know this existed prior to WotC, it is what brought about PO and S&P specifically. but where did the idea that the character concept came before the game come from?

i mentioned to DDMW before about playing without anything but a character race/class, the name and the equipment list, and he felt like he had no control over the character, but it was really the game mechanics he had no control over, just as when purchasing an RPG in the first place. when people look at a character in ANY game they are fundamentally just the game playing itself and the player has those few details to act on or against, race/class, equipment and the characters name.

WoW, EQ, D&D, this is all the character really is.

how does the importance on the minutiae really dictate the way someone must play a character? that is why in the first post i mentioned the scores didnt allow playing bard, paladin or ranger to go ahead and preempt the "cant play class X with scores ABCDEF".

nobody in the right mind forced the all 6's character to be played, but it made it more real than the superheroes of Marvel that K wants.

that is why the progression from 2d6 in order to more methods occured, because the racial or class restrictions on scores were not allowing someone wanting to play a wizard from playing a wizard. so jsut remove the ability scores all together, then what happens?

does the game become less about making a character from some other story and importing it to D&D, or do people feel like they have les control since the control they have is still only limited by the OTHER rules of the game, that they choose to use? if the fake sense of control needed that much in order to counter suspected DM abuse?

NWPs everyone can agree is a joke jsut looking at the fire-building example. people thought that you couldn't build a fire if you didn't have it. still haven't figured out why anyone thought that, but did it offer more options really or less during play?

how big a role does ability scores play in you playing the game itself? could you play if they didnt exist or would the concept be so alien you* wouldnt be able to play without them?

*you being the reader, not a person quoted in this post.