Another ridiculously large multiquote for you guys...
Sigma, don't break the thread!
Calibron wrote:Sorry, it's just that I am a devout Christian, yet I'm constantly reminded about how much the Christian community tends to suck. This annoys me.
Don't feel bad - all comunities suck because people tend to suck. Seriously, I think Frank would agree with me saying that the average self-styled "Communist" is a retard (at least, that's what I see in my country). That has just as much bearing on him that the suckitude of the average Christian has on you. For a more pungent example, there's people who think RPGists are more learned/intellectual that average - I offer the WotC boards as counterproof, and that doesn't make the people here idiots.
shirak wrote:Lago, I think we are playing two very different games. To me, the greatest difference a hero can make is to stop the war. To you, the hero must convert all others to his own view. The problem is that Elves don't think of Orcs as people and fellow members of the Brotherhood of Humanoids, they think of them as the enemy! Orcs are not really people, they are mindless killing beasts. And this worldview is backed up by an actual god who comes down and preaches it and reinforced by several thousand years of Orcish aggression. The Elves aren't changing anytime soon, not because it's impossible but because to make it halfway plausible you'd have to architect a shift in societal conditions and institute what amounts to a brainwashing program. You'd have to destroy the Elven culture and replace it with another. And that is not happening in a tactical wargame.
Yeah, what Lago wants is different from the vast majority of D&D games. But, well, on how to do it: do we really need brainwashing? Seriously, won't a social change trigger different cultural values? Of course, part of it is killing both Corellon and Gruumsh (and Lago has mentioned the "kill the gods is needed" part
numerous times, so let's not act as f he thought
anybody can be reasoned with) and a couple other gods (easy ...); then, just convince the remainders that it was all for the good (like, a world where elves don't need to
die painfully fighting orcs every year - not to mention the rapes, before anyone tries to pull off a "dying to be rewarded is good!"). Maybe the remaining gods could even
help changing societies ... Before anyone asks how to do so, it's essentially "spend some years alternating between getting negociable favors and hiding from the gods with mindblank/genesis".
Voss wrote:[pretty much everything]
Most of your point seems to be that nobody in any setting had ideas close to modern views of equality/peace/self-sacrifice.
And that's wrong - Jesus "Ilmater" Christ exists in Faerûn, and, seriously isn't the "Lion of God" some people would claim to worship - he's the guy who takes beatings for others. And, before anyone claims he's just an idiot that would try to be diplomatic with the Tarrasque, just consider he hangs with Tyr and Torm - I think he does see value in people with big swords. So, just imagine a setting where those three (Could it be some "Holy Trinity" joke, by the way?) win (after having discarded Helm for being a racist bastard). Consider none of those is a racial god, and consider that the best way to be worshipped is to make worshipper's lives good - at the limit of "we won and the evil gods are dead", that means making
everyone's lives good and being worshipped by all of them (at this point, the warrior gods would probably still be warriors because the next step would be storming the lower planes) ...
Besides, you know, being good according to our modern definition may be anachronistic for the times, but, you know,
characters can just have new ideas. Or, more funnily, just consider a fantastic Earth where Jesus was a cleric of all creation (see Lago's idea, and allow me to fit the wizard's defensive magic in, which I feel it should have) and had a party of similarly hardcore diplomancers - are you telling me the setting wouldn't change?
Some things I considered worthy of special mention:
Voss wrote:A vow of poverty isn't a measure of morality - it's a fvcking personal quirk, particularly in cultures where most people don't have any damn money in the first place.
I think that deserves special mention - if one happens, for example, to be born rich, how isn't "I am a person just like everybody else, and thus don't deserve to have more than other people" a moral stance? I'm not saying I consider that an intelligent decision (I don't, as keeping the money and using it well would be smarter than fracturing it in tiny pieces
even for the purpose of helping others) or that I find it particularly praiseworthy (I don't either, since I don't think "everybody's equal" is justice - meritocracy is), but it
is a decision that defines someone's morals, not a "I like to wear blue"-style quirk.
Voss wrote:Hell, in some places around the world, its still acceptable behavior.
And I think most people on this board consider this unacceptable (which makes it comprehensible that they wouldn't want their characters to do the same, even in a fictional setting) - don't you? Anyway, that's an example of a single planet having room for more than one set of morals; you seem to try to imply that the seemingly much larger D&D multiverse doesn't ...
Voss wrote:Lago wrote:cycle of war and death and misery
That, traditionally, is called life.
And I hazard saying life'd be better if it looked less like this - so would fictional characters' lives, for anyone that happened to care (for example. people roleplaying good characters).
Voss wrote:The bit that we are actually really damn good at.
Some people accept this as a fact, and some try to progress in other directions ...
Voss wrote:Interestingly, this finally gives us a point to half-orcs. They help to alleviate the losses the orcs suffer when they come into conflict with the better organized races- the orcs are stealing women and raping them to build their numbers back up.
And I'd
love playing a rapist...
[/sarcasm]
RandomCasualty at [unixtime wrote:1188066351[/unixtime]]
Lago_AM3P at [unixtime wrote:1187996443[/unixtime]]
Here's what I think a 5th level character should be able to do.
- With a lot of convincing and kindness, convince an aboleth or a beholder that their way of life is wrong and should seek a better way of living.
- After kicking the butts of both a local wild elf tribe and the orc tribes, make them sit down and come up with a lasting peace treaty after hundreds of years of warfare.
- Incite the populace of a good-sized town, including the guards, that they should really reconsider their laws which subjects women to oppression that the Biblical times would wince at. People who aren't at the speech or meeting somehow hear this meme.
- Make a revenant give up its relentless need for revenge.
If a 5th level character can do all that, then why is there even any wars in your campaign world? I mean, you'd get some 15th level diplomat at some point who just achieves world peace, and then nobody cares anymore.
That's the big problem with diplomancy, Lago. It, at the very least, shouldn't be able to reliably convert over-CRed enemies. Also, a big pitfall is making the diplomancer not be a team player (not leaving much for others to do because the enemies were converted). That's why I'd make some creature types be basically immune to diplomacy.
