RobbyPants wrote: Stuff.
MGuy wrote:Grovelling and supplicating are actual actions though and would thus should have a roll. There sure as hell shouldn't be one over whether or not the orcs are hostile. That's the been the only thing I've been questioning since the beginning because the way Frank is putting it there should be a roll to determine both which I don't think there should be one to determine that the orcs already don't like you. Whether or not there should be a roll on what they do about hasn't been a part of any argument I've made.
If I'm reading you and Frank correctly, I don't think you're too far off from what he's saying. I'm getting the impression it goes like this:
1) MC sets a starting disposition for the orcs (aggressive).
2) MC takes into account anything the PCs have passively or preemptively done (Do they have weapons drawn? Are they on neutral ground? Does the group contain any dwarves?).
3) Based on the starting disposition (MC-fiat) and the modifiers (passively determined by circumstance and by any actions the PCs took before hand), MC makes an initial attitude roll. So, the aggressive orcs could become hostile to armed dwarves on sight, or they could become cautious to humans out in the middle of a neutral area that don't have weapons drawn, or whatever.
4) The encounter has started, and people can start to make decisions as to whether to use Diplomacy, fight, run, or whatever.
So, from what I can tell, you setting the initial attitude is akin to Frank setting the initial disposition: 100% MC fiat. It's just that after that, Frank is taking actions into account that happen
before the encounter. The initial attitude roll is to determine how successful those actions are.
So, if your goal is to put aggressive orcs at ease, you might walk around with your weapons sheathed, have your half orc barbarian "leading" the group up front, and avoid disputed territories to boost your modifiers. Once that part is done, assuming MC doesn't roll "the orcs want to kill you, no questions asked", then the group can always attempt to engage in Diplomacy once the encounter starts (a second roll).
Agree with your summary. However, I also assert that steps 1-3 yield a result functionally identical to MC fiat. Furthermore, I assert that direct MC fiat is
better. Consider:
In your (MC) game, I (PC) say "I tear up that shrubbery and eat it. Do I start flying?" You, being a reasonable MC, do which of the following:
a) assign a low probablilty of success and roll for it.
b) "No."
c) "Not no, but hell no."
Adding in wacky randomnesses makes games stupid. It removes player agency (because thier actions have less predictable outcomes and it's easier to start eating things and hoping you roll high on "Does it give me a divine rank?"). Setting cohesion goes to shit, etc.
FrankTrollman wrote:OK, now do the comparison: Lord Fancypants goes out with various amounts of money on different days. The PCs watch his behavior and attempt to intercept him on a day when he will have more or less money than usual on his person. How would you feel about the DM telling you in that case that Lord Fancypants had no gold on him without rolling dice?
I would say unkind things about the DM whether or not he rolled the dice if the players plotted a stickup and Lord Fancypants had no money. That's just asshattery. That doesn't mean Fancypants ever carries a lot of money, or that he doesn't take precautions when he does, but any rolling should be to make the number more flavorful (20k GP -> 20117 GP), not to actually change it.
There should be a pattern that players can work out (or at least recognize) and plan around, and deviations from that pattern should be plot points. In Pirates of the Carribean, pirate fights always stop when you say "Parley." That's not a diplomacy roll, that's just how pirates
work. Diplomacy comes later, when you try to actually talk.
In DnD, it should work the same. If your Orc Raiding Party #327 are fanatically opposed to the color red, they aren't
likely to attack redshirts, they should
always attack redshirts. If there's something making them not want to attack, the DM should conciously decide how his characters' motivations balance.
Overall, it's the same rection I get for players who instead of
playing their damn character, announce "I'm making a wisdom roll to not tell the king his pants are ugly." I'm more sympathetic because the MC has more work, but it's still the same thing.