The Shadowrun Situation

[Fuchs]

Okay, so your theory is that a civilization that had a couple thousand years to get spellcasting down pat should be worse than one that's only had a couple decades practice? Granted, technology moves faster these days, but not that fast.

We went from the brothers Wright to the moon in 7 decades. Science made that happen. Modern thinking, modern communication, made that happen.

There are many civilizations who had a thousand years or more to get whateve down pat - and whatever they did we surpassed it in the 20th century. Ancient and medieval mentality will shackle progress.

ED lore should at best serve like nature today, as an inspiration how to improve, not as something that works better.

Not to mention that in first edition, ED magic was actually weaker in game mechanics than SR magic. I played both, and SR mages could do stuff ED dreamed of - like healing people fully in seconds, casting three times faster, full astral projection starting out, more bound elementals, and spells that actually killed in one blow.

That was due to ED being a typical fantasy game, with "wail on the monster for rounds and rounds until it dies" fights, while SR's magic needed and needs to stand up to modern firearms in killing power and speed.

You can't have a game where magic is balanced for fantasy battles, and then assume that magic will be better than magic balanced for firearms.

[Ancient History]

Fuchs, if you want to go into the nitty gritty comparison of actual Earthdawn spell effects versus Shadowrun spell effects, I will go there, and you will lose and be proven wrong. Because you're trying to apply logic to a game, and games are not logical. I don't actually want to have that debate, because I honestly don't care that much about it at this point in time, so accept that the games as written don't line up to the games as you think they should be, m'kay?

I would generally agree with you that Science Is Better, particularly in Real Life, but we're not dealing with Real Life at the moment.

So the Theran Empire is secretly run by dragons, then?

Immortal Elves. Sortof. It's a bit of a mess, really.

[Fuchs]

It's a question of game mechanics, AH. The systems were, in my opinion, mechanically far too different to be actually in the same universe, "different magic tradition" nonwithstanding. And when the mechanics don't work well enough, all the fluff in the world won't help.

I'll grant that there were some ED spells one could not do in SR, but overall, ED should have, with all the "More mana, higher magic" background fluff, beaten SR's magic in all aspects - casting speed, power, area of effect, utility, healing - and should have offered all the options SR did, and then some. It did not do that.

The game as written had rather slow and weaker magic in ED1 compared to SR1 (and I'd say SR2 as well), in my experience. Simply having 3 seconds rounds in SR and 10 seconds rounds in ED1 meant ED magic was slower. And slower means weaker. A lot weaker in the case where you actually could get multiple actions in a single 3 seconds rounds, with high rolls, cyber or reaction-enhancing spells. Quickened spells aka "Buffs", turning your SR mage into powerhouse moving almost as fast and eing almost tough as a sam? Not in ED. Add in the way you could spend karma in SR1, compared to the ED mechanics, and Area of effect, spell selection, and SR1 comes out on top.

When my mage went nova, burning karma for rerolls and buying successes in SR1, things died. When I went "nova" in ED, things.... got hurt. There were no one-shot kills in ED.

If ED was meant to have stronger magic than SR, why wasn't that done by game mechanics? Why weren't the rounds adjusted so ED magic at least was as fast as SR?

[Fuchs]

And, heck, don't get me started on range. SR combat spells had range: Line of sight.

ED spells had... 40 yards, 100 yards, etc.

Yeah, very impressive, folks. I am supposed to think that a magical culture who has researched magic for 1000s of years and hasn't managed to get LOS range combat spells working despite upposedly having a higher mana level is in the same universe - and comparatively stronger?

My suspension of disbelief doesn't cover that case.

[Ancient History]

Earthdawn spells could raise the dead, cause hurricanes, capture cities in bottles, and use blood magic to fertilize the crops.

[Fucks]

Fuchs, you're an idiot. But I love your ramblings and your stubborn claims that you know the one real truth and everybody else is wrong. Go on with that! Don't care about facts that other people bring up! Make your own Truth!

Your life must be shit.

[Fuchs]

Then it makes even less sense why their bread and butter combat spells are so damn weak compared to SR's. Why they cast so slowly, and lack the options SR offers. It's like they developped nukes, but the firearms were stuck at the level of matchlocks. Not to mention that SR magic offers a lot of that with great form spirits.

My point is: ED was made as a medieval fantasy game, with the usual tropes. It wasn't made to fit SR's universe mechanically.

(Which is rather weird, since every PC in ED is a magical character one could have taken SR's magic system with adepts and mages, and ported that over. Would have been more logical, and the high-magic stuff would likely feel not as stupid.)

[Stahlseele]

Earthdawn spells could raise the dead, cause hurricanes, capture cities in bottles, and use blood magic to fertilize the crops.

Well, SR has the Animate spell and Cybermancy.
And granted SPELLS won't cause hurricanes USUALLY, Great Form Spirits can do so just fine.
I sill like to point out that any mage that can summon a Force 4 Great Form Earth Elemental can level entire cities by having it use QUAKE LOS Power.

[Ancient History]

Then it makes even less sense why their bread and butter combat spells are so damn weak compared to SR's. Why they cast so slowly, and lack the options SR offers. It's like they developped nukes, but the firearms were stuck at the level of matchlocks. Not to mention that SR magic offers a lot of that with great form spirits.

Yes, and there's a reason for that: the Scourge. When casting spells quickly will get your soul eaten, you look for a safer technique.

My point is: ED was made as a medieval fantasy game, with the usual tropes.

This is demonstrably not true.

It wasn't made to fit SR's universe mechanically.

This is true.

(Which is rather weird, since every PC in ED is a magical character one could have taken SR's magic system with adepts and mages, and ported that over. Would have been more logical, and the high-magic stuff would likely feel not as stupid.)

And this is where you fail, again. The Earthdawn magic system is a thing of unparalleled game design beauty, particularly in comparison to SR. It effectively accomplishes its key goals, and in an innovative and logical way.

[Fuchs]

There are a few exceptions, but overall, playing a caster didn't feel like one was playing in a world where magic is more powerful and advanced than in SR. It felt far more limited, and restricted. That's a big, and stupid mistake in a system. I simply can't accept that in thousands of years, ED didn't manage to get say manabolt working at LOS.

(And SR has bloodzilla, although in a later version.)

[Ancient History]

I simply can't accept that in thousands of years, ED didn't manage to get say manabolt working at LOS.

One more time, let me try to get this across: what you think does not matter.

[Mandella]

So what happened to Earthdawn anyway? Did it not sell well, or did it just lose out in the general collapse of FASA?

Who owns the rights to it now?

[Fuchs]

Then it makes even less sense why their bread and butter combat spells are so damn weak compared to SR's. Why they cast so slowly, and lack the options SR offers. It's like they developped nukes, but the firearms were stuck at the level of matchlocks. Not to mention that SR magic offers a lot of that with great form spirits.

Yes, and there's a reason for that: the Scourge. When casting spells quickly will get your soul eaten, you look for a safer technique.

That would be true - but even when throwing caution in the wind and casting raw you were far slower than in SR. I would have thought that casting raw would have been at least as fast as SRs.

My point is: ED was made as a medieval fantasy game, with the usual tropes.

This is demonstrably not true.

ED has all the big tropes: Ancient elven kingdom/magic, Big Dragons, Feudalism, Evil Magic Empire, Small bands of special heroes from all races but the evil ones battling threats in increasing danger. Not even the post-apocalypse is that new, Dark Sun did it better. And the gameplay did feel like D&D - so much, we ultimately dropped ED for D&D. So, we went from playing SR, ED and D&D to playing SR and D&D. At least D&D had the "magic is more powerful than in SR" vibe more than ED.

It wasn't made to fit SR's universe mechanically.

This is true.

And that's why it shouldn't be SR's past.

(Which is rather weird, since every PC in ED is a magical character one could have taken SR's magic system with adepts and mages, and ported that over. Would have been more logical, and the high-magic stuff would likely feel not as stupid.)

And this is where you fail, again. The Earthdawn magic system is a thing of unparalleled game design beauty, particularly in comparison to SR. It effectively accomplishes its key goals, and in an innovative and logical way.

My personal impression of how ED felt in game aside, to be a part of SR's past it should have meshed with SR mechanically. That would have been logical in that context.

Would it have been ideal for a fantasy game? Probably not. But that's why having a fantasy game being the past of SR is a bad idea anyway, especially when the simplest mechanics don't match well enough to offer "magic in ED is stronger" as a result when compared.

[Ancient History]

Earthdawn wasn't selling well by the standards of the time (i.e. it was selling more than most RPGs do these days), and so was discontinued. FASA still owns it, and licenses the product out to RedBrick Ltd. and possibly some other companies in Europe.

[Fuchs]

I simply can't accept that in thousands of years, ED didn't manage to get say manabolt working at LOS.

One more time, let me try to get this across: what you think does not matter.

Range of spells matters a lot. Why exactly did ED spells have so small ranges? Militarily, range is very important. Why did no one manage to get that range in ED, and everyone had it in a few years after the awakening in SR?

[Ancient History]

That would be true - but even when throwing caution in the wind and casting raw you were far slower than in SR. I would have thought that casting raw would have been at least as fast as SRs.

No, if you force cast it you're just as fast as SR, and you take drain.

My point is: ED was made as a medieval fantasy game, with the usual tropes.

This is demonstrably not true.

ED has all the big tropes: Ancient elven kingdom/magic, Big Dragons, Feudalism, Evil Magic Empire, Small bands of special heroes from all races but the evil ones battling threats in increasing danger. Not even the post-apocalypse is that new, Dark Sun did it better. And the gameplay did feel like D&D - so much, we ultimately dropped ED for D&D. So, we went from playing SR, ED and D&D to playing SR and D&D. At least D&D had the "magic is more powerful than in SR" vibe more than ED.

Jesus, why do I have to explain this? You are not describing medieval fantasy. You are describing several fantasy tropes that apply to a wide variety of related fantasy settings. Earthdawn is distinctly non-Medieval, to the point where it doesn't operate under any sort of feudal system. The game was deliberately designed to provide a setting basis for standard D&D tropes, like character classes (Disciplines), levels (Circles), and Vancian magic (spell matricies).

See, in Dark Sun, you couldn't say that you were a 6th-level Preserver casting the 1st-level spell magic missile without breaking character. Levels, classes, all of that shit were game mechanics terminology, not in-game terminology. Earthdawn was designed so that you could say you were a 3rd Circle Elementalist casting a 2nd circle spell in character.

It wasn't made to fit SR's universe mechanically.

This is true.

And that's why it shouldn't be SR's past.

Really getting tired of arguing this point: you are welcome to your opinion. It doesn't matter. Suck it up. Move on.

[Fuchs]

That would be true - but even when throwing caution in the wind and casting raw you were far slower than in SR. I would have thought that casting raw would have been at least as fast as SRs.

No, if you force cast it you're just as fast as SR, and you take drain.

ED had 10 second rounds. SR had 3-5 second rounds and you could have several actions during that. ED Raw casting is far slower.

[Username17]

A player character magician is far more powerful in Shadowrun than a player character spellcaster in Earthawn. I honestly can't even believe we're having this discussion. Earthdawn magic is competitive with a fucking pointed stick, Shadowrun magic is competitive with a machine gun mounted on a truck. It's not even a close call here.

Every so often some whiny fangirl will fap over the fact that some 10th to 15th circle spell or another does something that Shadowrun Magic doesn't do: generally pointing out the spell that links two doors (a form of teleportation) or the whole raising the dead thing. But you know what? So fucking what? Firstly, we're talking about very high circle characters versus the limitations of what are essentially starting characters in Shadowrun, and secondly most of that shit isn't all that impressive compared to what starting Shadowrun characters can do anyway.

Seriously, a starting character can pull a Force 12 Air Spirit out of their ass. Sure, there is a good chance that won't work, and a disturbingly good chance the character will up and die, but they can do it. And a Force 12 Air Spirit will mop the fucking floor with a Great Dragon. Seriously, the only thing that keeps the Great Dragon in the game there is that it can probably conjure an equivalent spirit. You look at the monsters that the Earthdawn characters can maybe make a play at fighting around Circle 15 (fap fap fap), and Shadowrun characters can threaten them magically right out of high school. Picking up a few Grades of power, and they can seriously make a very valid attempt at winning. Against what is literally the final boss of the entire Earthdawn Setting.

Weather Control is cool and all, but it's also available to literally every Magician you can make with the basic book as long as you have a Magic Attribute of at least two. The destructive power unleashable by actual conjurers and ritualists who spend some metamagics on those processes is simply not even comparable. A Grade 4 Initiate who happens to be into Ritual Sorcery can murder Ghost Walker through the fucking trid screen from a home base in Iowa. A similarly charged Initiate who happens to fap to conjuration instead could sink Thera by getting up one day and deciding to do that.

Starting Shadowrun characters are, what? The equivalent of Seventh Circle Nethermancers or so? Maybe better than that? The third circle Illusionism version of Astral Sense is not even a small fraction of how cool the Astral Perception that SR Magicians get for free is. The Fifth Circle version of Fireball is so short of the SR Fireball as to be laughable (it's smaller in area, requires a source of flame, does less damage, only goes 100 yards, and takes forever to cast). To find an actual spell that is even close to its SR equivalent, you need to grab things like Beast Form (which is, yes, Seventh Fucking Circle).

-Username17

[Ancient History]

T'be fair, I am a whiney fangirl. But Fuchs is still trying to compare apples and oranges here.

[Lago PARANOIA]

You know, a lot of this discussion makes me think that the whole reason why spellcasters get this 'I'm god-like and I'm fapped to' trope is because they tend to have the advantage of being way ahead of the technology curve.

Except for teleportation, a lot of the tricks that mages--even high-end mages like in D&D--can do are just not that impressive once you have access to late 21st-century technology. Oh, you can do a simacrulum loop? Well, my rigger hacks into an entire garage of mini-mechs. Oh, you can create a pile of swords and shit with a wave of your hands? I can just call a factory down in China to make a bigger amount and have them deliver it to me.

When you compare Shadowrun magicians to the power of other mages in fiction, they rank really high. Not as high as a pre-4E D&D magician or a Naruto magician, but they're probably in a top five or top ten list of powerful mages from fiction that people actually care about. The reason why they don't seem that big a deal is that they're competing for attention with people who have access to science-fiction technology... and frankly the hacker/rigger tends to steal the show in most games.

[Crissa]

Of course, put an SR caster in ED and they'll accidentally summon a Horror which would eat them.

...So it's kinda not fair to compare the two directly like that.

But the complaint was that Earthdawn was infecting SR, but the evidence just isn't there.

What is infecting SR are mary-sue or Forgotten Realms tropes that everyone is better than you.

-Crissa

[TheFlatline]

But the complaint was that Earthdawn was infecting SR, but the evidence just isn't there.

Wait, what?

There have been multiple plot line proposals and discussions that literally link back to Earthdawn that are supposed to be setting-changers.

The complaint is that "ancient magic wins out over everything else, period" is a cliche and is a tired one on top of that. We have riggers, hackers, street samurai, clone vats, nanotech and a nearly transhuman cultural level in Shadowrun, but ultimately, it comes down to artifacts left over from Earthdawn that are the only things that matter because they are earth-shaking important.

And I tend to agree with that. They might seem terribly important, super-powerful characters might suspect that they're important, or even be convinced that they're super important, but ultimately it kind of says "fuck you" to the technology side of Shadowrun.

How about the artifacts *are* super powerful, but the megacorps get ahold of them, and in an amazing feat of bureaucratic ineptitude, they get sent to some R&D lab, where some scientist puke extracts all the magical power out of them and uses it to power the world's most accurate clock. The dragons, immortal elves, and other powers that be freak out, but it's too late. We'll always know precisely what time it is though.

I dunno, I'm sick of "the ancient artifact from another era is our salvation/doom" cliche.

[Fuchs]

T'be fair, I am a whiney fangirl. But Fuchs is still trying to compare apples and oranges here.

How so? I keep hearing ED magic is so advanced, and when you look at the mechanics, it isn't. And what but the mechanics should you use to compare them?

[Fuchs]

How about the artifacts *are* super powerful, but the megacorps get ahold of them, and in an amazing feat of bureaucratic ineptitude, they get sent to some R&D lab, where some scientist puke extracts all the magical power out of them and uses it to power the world's most accurate clock. The dragons, immortal elves, and other powers that be freak out, but it's too late. We'll always know precisely what time it is though.

I dunno, I'm sick of "the ancient artifact from another era is our salvation/doom" cliche.

I prefer the "Oh... the most powerful artifact of the forgotten age... ah... it... it duplicates what R&D created last year?"

[Ancient History]

Your whole spiel can be boiled down to you complaining about someone getting filthy, filthy Earthdawn on Shadowrun, and when it was pointed out that at no time did Earthdawn or even "ancient magic" overpower Shadowrun's modern tech-heavy culture, you started into your fucking rant about how Earthdawn magic should be fucking retarded because it was developed by a bunch of cavemen 10,000 years ago and we're so much smarter now because we have Science!

Which is a long way to say: you're being a dick and trying to draw parallels between two systems which were designed, from the start, to be completely different - probably specifically to avoid falling into the trap of trying to draw such parallels. Earthdawn is a different fucking game system, and despite its connections with Shadowrun a different setting. What you can do in Earthdawn ultimately means bupkiss in Shadowrun, and vice versa.