The Shadowrun Situation

[TheFlatline]

The DotA, if you'd bothered to read them, are pretty shit. You haven't seen the last ones yet probably, but unlike Harlequin or Harlequin's Back, DotA is not a complete story. It's a team of runners jetting around the world to pick up some artifacts because they're being paid to do so; there's no actual plot as to why they're picking them up or what their boss is going to do with them because that plotline - shown in the documents at different stages - was so fucking bad it was dropped before DotA was being written, and yet they started writing them anyway. I had to fucking campaign to get an ending that didn't completely suck balls nailed onto the end of those adventures in the form of Harlequin's Gambit, and my leaving basically sunk that book because I took half of it with me and now the line developer's being a prick about it.

I understand fully the situation you're explaining. "This is shit, we need *some* kind of narrative that doesn't suck balls" is an admirable goal.

And I get that Coleman has a massive, throbbing erection for the IE and other uber-magic shit.

But I'll be truthful. The above post that mentions some German dragon decided to roast the peasants and got shot in the head with a tank cannon not only makes me chuckle, but seems so perfectly... "Shadowrun" that I'd consider using it as a one-liner to sell people on the Man/Machine/Magic aspect in a light-hearted sort of way.

I don't get, from a design standpoint, why ancient magic trumps all in Shadowrun specifically. That brings the setting back closer to generic fantasy, which is frankly what people are trying to avoid when they start playing Shadowrun.

I haven't played a lot of SR campaigns over the years, maybe only 3 or 4 serious games, but there was never a lot of magic wanking. We have D&D for that. We always dug the idea that some troll could graft a fucking tank cannon onto his shoulder if he was stupid/rich enough. The magic was there almost as a spice.

[TheFlatline]

One central part of the Shadowrun setting is that no matter how badass the players are, ultimately the fate of the world is decided by men in suits. No one is irreplaceable, no one is invulnerable and the power lies with companies, bureaucracies and governments, not individuals.

I'd say that statement is debatable. There is evidence to support it in some Shadowrun material, but there's also evidence against it in Shadowrun material going way back into the early editions. It's one of those basic themes of Shadowrun that they've waffled back and forth on. Look at early books like Harlequin and Harlequin's Back, they were very focused on the runners' impact on the world. And probably half of the Shadowrun novels, at least, don't agree with that statement.

But yes, that's a conflict in the setting. It seems to often want to express that nearly every individual doesn't matter, except possibly the PCs.

Actually, that's not terribly contradictory. Unless you're in the right place, at the right time, you don't mean shit. The men in suits have way more money and power than you'll ever have, and at best they'll smooth your intentional efforts to the contrary out after some time.

But once in a while shit hits the fan. And much like Bruce Willis in the Die Hard movies, the PCs have the worst fucking luck EVAR when it comes to avoiding the spotlight.

[Murtak]

One central part of the Shadowrun setting is that no matter how badass the players are, ultimately the fate of the world is decided by men in suits. No one is irreplaceable, no one is invulnerable and the power lies with companies, bureaucracies and governments, not individuals.

I'd say that statement is debatable. There is evidence to support it in some Shadowrun material, but there's also evidence against it in Shadowrun material going way back into the early editions. It's one of those basic themes of Shadowrun that they've waffled back and forth on. Look at early books like Harlequin and Harlequin's Back, they were very focused on the runners' impact on the world.

Of course they are. Harlequin is an immortal elf after all. Hence my complaint.

And probably half of the Shadowrun novels, at least, don't agree with that statement.

These are the books I read:

Into the Shadows: Various short stories. Zero world impact in any of them.
Never Deal with a Dragon: zero world impact.
Choose Your Enemies Carefully: zero world impact.
Find Your Own Truth: thwarted the plans of a totem spirit and an exec. No changes to corporation, totem spirit still player selectable, though presumably slightly less powerful than otherwise. Next to zero world impact.
2XS: A single Bug Queen slain. Zero world impact.
Changeling: Zero world impact.
Never Trust an Elf: Immortal elves and dragons. Hard to tell whats going on, but zero perceivable world impact.
Streets of Blood: Zero world impact.
Shadowplay: Runners prevent a war between corporations. Hard to tell what would have happened, but I'd say this one counts as far as the runners affecting the world is concerned.
Night's Pawn: Zero world impact.
Striper Assassin: Zero world impact.
Lone Wolf: Zero world impact.
Fade to Black: Zero world impact.
Nosferatu: Immortal elf vampire wants to release killer virus. Explicitly revealed to have been a pawn. Zero world impact.
Burning Bright: Runner present for important event, but impact comes from a corporation.
Who Hunts the Hunter: Zero world impact.
House of the Sun: Runner present for important event, but impact comes from a immortal elf. Actions of an individual make the difference, so I guess it counts.
Worlds Without End: Earthdawn crossover. World impact unknown, but presumably exists.
Just Compensation: Zero world impact.
Black Madonna: Insane immortal elf hacker creates super virus. Counts.
Preying for Keeps: Zero world impact.
Dead Air: Zero world impact.
The Lucifer Deck: Weird-ass one-of-a-kind spirit can bypass matrix security at will. Total bullshit. World impact unknown, because of insanity of storyline.
Steel Rain: Zero world impact.
Stranger Souls: Immortal dragon decides fate of the world. Counts.
Headhunters: Zero world impact.
Clockwork Asylum: See Stranger Souls. Counts.
Beyond the Pale: See Stranger Souls. Counts.
Wolf and Raven: Zero world impact.
Psychotrope: Insane AI tries to kill Seattle, is dissuaded. World impact unknown. Sourcebooks indicate not much, book indicates somewhat more.
The Terminus Experiment: Arguably one city did not need to be nuked. Not different from a bug infestation or virus though. Small world impact.
Run Hard, Die Fast: The idiocy hurts. Zero world impact.
Crossroads: Zero world impact.
German books:
Das zerrissene Land: Zero world impact.
Die Augen des Riggers: Zero world impact.
Die graue Eminenz: Zero world impact.

So by my count that is 26 books in which the actions of individuals have no impact and 9 in which they do. Of those 9, 7 feature the plans of immortal elves, immortal vampire super mages or immortal dragon metaplane gambits. The other 2 feature runners desperately trying to stay alive and choosing their best option of survival. Shadowplay is the one book where a mortal even thinks about affecting the world. So disregarding immortals the count is 1 out of 28, 2 if we count affecting the world by accident. In contrast 7 out of 9 books featuring immortals as involved parties affect the world, and the 2 that do not have the immortals fighting other immortals.

And this is why I hate immortal elves, super vampires and all that crap. It is literally another genre. It does not belong in the Shadowrun setting.

[Stahlseele]

Well, the Spider Totem wanted to launch several Nuklear Weapons. Also, Sam Verner did a second Great Ghost Dance.
Lofwyrs Brother wanted to launch a Nuke too in that one Talon centric Novel.
The immortal Elf Vampire would have released that would have killed ALL NON ELVES.
Streets of Blood basically allowed HKB to become one of the biggest players in England.
An all out Corporate War would have been the beginning of a Mad Maxx Setting. Or Tank-Girl.
One Horror that made it through, the personal Horror of one immortal Elf. It is not about Shadowrunners at all in this one, it's completely about the immortal ones.
Lucifer Deck. A Spirit made up of light does not simply bypass any matrix security, but wipes every cluster he goes through because of hit nature. Basically the magical Version of the Crash Virus. Could have destroyed the whole Matrix . . Again . . ok, so i guess that does not count, it would have been the second of two times by then and the second of three times all in all <.< . .
Psychotrope basically depicts how Mirage, the AI that came from Echo Mirage, created Otaku out of 5 Individuals. It tried to do this on the scale of all of Seattle. Imagine a complete turning of all people in Seattle logged in into Otaku. That would have been some impact.
Terminus Experiment would have seen the release of an improved strain of the HMHVV that creates vampires who don't need to fear the sun or wood, who presumeably don't need to drink blood and can eat regular food . . The Ordo what'sit'sname would have loved to turn large parts of the world into these super vampires and degrade everybody else to cattle.

[Wesley Street]

Speaking of "zero world impact", since the end of 2nd ed./beginning of 3rd ed. it seems like every piece of published adventure material has been a big sprawling epic requiring a campaign plot book. What's the anathema to one-shots that don't intersect the metaplot?

SR would benefit from what RedBrick is doing with the Earthdawn Shards - stand-alone adventure collections in one book. It would provide a little diversity for players who don't want to spend a year in game time mopping up after technomancers or running drugs. It would also be a good format for high-quality fan-generated material (such as the poor guy who "won" the 20th anniversary contest and was never heard from again) as well as freelancers looking to pick up an extra contract or two.

First ed. kicked off the Universal Brotherhood metaplot with a one-shot but the whole story was spread out over a few years. And there was a variety of self-contained adventures, like Elven Fire, in between.

[Stahlseele]

You mean, like, the Shadowrun Missions?

[Wesley Street]

Missions aren't self-contained. They have their own over-arching plot. They're four-hour convention games and are written like four-hour convention games. Also, speaking as someone who wrote one, they're kinda terrible. At least Manhattan was.

I'm thinking more along the lines of: everything a GM and player needs to know about the adventure is contained in the adventure. The adventures aren't sequels, prequels or part of a story series. And they're collected in one package.

[Stahlseele]

ah, i see.
never played them, i thought they did not have anything to do with each other.

[mean_liar]

I am so happy to have never read a SR novel.

[jjasper]

For all these complaints about immortal elves and dragons, hardly anyone is pointing to an alternative path.

So, here's a scenario to play with - Imagine if a really powerful AI or super-emerged technomancer was able to clone the memories of one of those immortal elves? There are several immortal elves running around, and we know we can have e-ghosts of people, and the game hasn't said how they happen. So what happens when all of that secret knowledge gets put into the hands of some AI or technomancer group?

And if you want to totally ignore elves and dragons, say that an AI or super technomancer produced a way to fully upload and make perfect copies of meta-human consciousness. Woof-bang, we're at the singularity. Now what?

[Wesley Street]

I am so happy to have never read a SR novel.

I read one. 2XS. I was in junior high school so that's my excuse.

For all these complaints about immortal elves and dragons, hardly anyone is pointing to an alternative path.

I don't mind Immortal Elves, Great Dragons and Mega-AIs. They fit fine with the setting. The Harlequin adventures were cool for their time and are fun for anyone going through them for the first time. What I do find irritating is that these NPCs are used as ultra pivotal touchstones in the SR universe and therefore are a problem that can never be solved. That smells of creative laziness and poor game design.

[Stahlseele]

i've read them all.
and for fan fiction, they are not all that bad . .
but i only genuinely enjoyed a select few of them.
favourite is shelley. no world changing plot, believeable characters and funny.

[Ganbare Gincun]

3. Nothing like that is mentioned, but if it was, then one should not claim ED's magic was more powerful.

I'm not making the claim that ED's magic was more powerful. But there's a huge gulf of time separating Earthdawn and Shadowrun, and we don't really know what transpired in the interim. I'm not sure if anyone ever intended on spelling out "why the world changed", if they were content to leave it to DM's Fiat, or if the issue was simply overlooked. But it's not really worth getting worked up about.

[TheFlatline]

I don't mind Immortal Elves, Great Dragons and Mega-AIs. They fit fine with the setting. The Harlequin adventures were cool for their time and are fun for anyone going through them for the first time. What I do find irritating is that these NPCs are used as ultra pivotal touchstones in the SR universe and therefore are a problem that can never be solved. That smells of creative laziness and poor game design.

You mean they're turning SR into Forgotten Realms, which is meta-wank.

I miss the old-school stand-alone adventures too. I have a bunch of them from 2nd ed. Problem is, they don't sell very well I imagine.

Which means that online-only distribution should be one answer for low cost, high crunch adventures. The benefit is that you actually have a bullpen for writing talent that you can evaluate to see if they create consistent, consumable content for the audience. If they deliver, you have a potential writer/dev.

Another option is to make single shot, stand-alone adventures that do not have, impact, or reference metaplot be easily licensed. If you can figure out how to fund and print it, great! CGL takes a grand or two in licensing fees per title, and off you go. Let the 3rd party folks drum up markets.

[Starmaker]

I read one. 2XS. I was in junior high school so that's my excuse.

2XS is an excellent book both as a standalone novel and as part of Shadowrun.

[Neurosis]

My favorite Shadowrun novel is either Shadowplay or the very first one. A lot of them are kind of or very bad. I think my very least favorite ones are by Steve Kenson, although I rather like the game content and adventures he contributed to in his time with SR.

Also the ridiculously dark one set in the newark sprawl. I like how it essentially ended in a TPK. It made me smile.

You mean they're turning SR into Forgotten Realms, which is meta-wank.

What means "meta-wank"? I don't know if you're referring to metahumans, the concept of meta-plot, neither or both.

Missions aren't self-contained. They have their own over-arching plot. They're four-hour convention games and are written like four-hour convention games. Also, speaking as someone who wrote one, they're kinda terrible. At least Manhattan was.

I too would like to see more self-contained adventures. But how can something be "kinda terrible"? Terrible is an extreme and kinda is a moderator. Nitpicky bullshit, I know, but seriously...I wasn't blown away by most of the Missions I've read/run (they're all from the second Denver arc though, not Manhattan) but I wouldn't call them terrible. For the most part, they're not GOOD but there's a whole lot of room between good and terrible.

[Ancient History]

For anyone still interested in following the bankruptcy case, CGL's lawyer has filed a motion asking for each creditor to obtain a $75k bond. (link)

[Neurosis]

Trying to make heads nor tails of that link now. What exactly does this mean?

[Ancient History]

CGL is asking the judge to require each of the creditors attempting to force them into bankruptcy to post a $75,000 bond. If the creditors fail at their effort, the bond is used to pay CGL back for its expenses on the trial.

[Neurosis]

So basically (if this goes through) then if the creditors can't "pay to play" they can't push forward with the involuntary bankruptcy petition? Seems kind of....unfair? I have no idea where they guy who they allegedly owe only about $2k for services rendered is going to get the means to post a $75,000 bond.

Of course I'm also still not sure that I comprehend the situation.

[Ancient History]

From my understanding, that's about the size of it. I think it works like most surety bonds where they only have to put up like a fraction of the principal through a bond agency...but admittedly, I don't know. Of course, posting the bond doesn't guarantee they'll win either.

If the judge even signs off on this motion.

[Neurosis]

It doesn't effect CGL's chances of winning but it does seem to effect the chance that the (plaintiffs?) creditors will drop the (suit?) involuntary bankruptcy petition. Depends on what the fraction of the principal is, probably.

If CGL DOES go bankrupt, what does that mean for SR?

[Username17]

It doesn't effect CGL's chances of winning but it does seem to effect the chance that the (plaintiffs?) creditors will drop the (suit?) involuntary bankruptcy petition. Depends on what the fraction of the principal is, probably.

It's an intimidation tactic. If they were actually spending $225k on their legal defense, they could have just paid their fucking bills.

If CGL DOES go bankrupt, what does that mean for SR?

It means that Topps gives the license to any of the other companies that want the license. Same thing it has always meant.

-Username17

[Stahlseele]

Hopefully to Pegasus Spiele in Germany.
Also, this looks like more desperate shuffling for money to me.
75k PER CREDITOR?
How many are there? 5? 10?
That together is a not too unsubstantial part of the house money which went missing . . and how much are they paying their lawyer, if they are asking for this kind of money for their time as the accused?

[Username17]

Hopefully to Pegasus Spiele in Germany.

Or to Arclight in Japan. Their pro-Nazi semi-pornographic card game is apparently actually really cool. From a mechanics standpoint, the historicity of a game where you play Nazi school girls who show their panties off while trying to take Moscow for the Third Reich from Stalin (who is a wizard) probably doesn't need to be gone into in over much detail.

And yes, that totally is a real thing. And yes, Arclight totally are the people who did SR Japan.

-Username17