The Gaming Den

hogarth wrote:

FrankTrollman wrote:So we're calling it. 4th edition D&D gets its last book around the September mark, with the Rules Compendium. There is never going to be an Arcane Power 2 or a Shadow Power or a Darksun Player's Guide or any of that. The DMG 3 will not happen.

I just checked the product list:
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/Catalog.aspx

Isn't the book "Player's Handbook Races: Humans" a 4th edition supplement? It's (supposedly) due out in December. Or do you think they're just flushing out the pipeline?

Yes and no. Player's Handbook Races: Humans is a 32 page magazine. It also comes out 3 months after the last material made for use with 4th edition D&D (the Rules Compendium, which according to Greg Bilsland's Twitter will have "significant updates" to the core rules). It's weird and incongruous. But it's not a real book, and never has been.

My impression is that it is on the schedule in case the Rules Compendium defies expectations and revives interest in the game line. Since they have 4th edition materials "all the way to the end of the year" then they could start producing materials again in 2011 and claim it was all a big misunderstanding. Pretty decent way to cover bases, it's not like PHR: Humans costs them anything - it's just a 32 page magazine after all.

-Username17

FrankTrollman wrote: The new books are going to have "no rules changes," but miraculously be 1/10th as long as the normal books. Also they will be trade paperbacks for cost reasons, but be distributed in boxes with cardboard sheets and dice. The old hardcover books will be "supported" but they won't actually be making any more of them. The classes will be the same, they just won't have any of the same powers.

No rules changes probably means that they will leave the core combat stuff (the basics) unchanged from 4E. It however doesn't mean that they won't omit rules. So for instance, we may not see grab or bull rush as an action in DDE. The actual powers themselves will largely be changed, but are not truly "rules" in the general sense, but rather class abilities and specifics. Much in the way that Magic the gathering can have new cards without changing its base rules.

Also, 4E rules continue to change drastically (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/UpdateMay2010.pdf), so they're basically just changing the DDE rules by patching the fuck out of 4E before DDE comes out. I mean fuck, 4E has huge amounts of errata every 2 months and they're still planning on releasing more.

FrankTrollman wrote:The new books are going to have "no rules changes," but miraculously be 1/10th as long as the normal books. Also they will be trade paperbacks for cost reasons, but be distributed in boxes with cardboard sheets and dice. The old hardcover books will be "supported" but they won't actually be making any more of them. The classes will be the same, they just won't have any of the same powers.

I'm really betting the D&D Essentials are gonna look lik Warhammer FRP 3.0 now.

Run for the hills. The end is nigh!

Personally I'm kind of looking forward to the death of D&D, it'll open up the Heroic High Fantasy genre to some new blood.

Calibron wrote:Personally I'm kind of looking forward to the death of D&D, it'll open up the Heroic High Fantasy genre to some new blood.

D&D won't die for as long as someone thinks they can make money off the name.

IGTN wrote:

Calibron wrote:Personally I'm kind of looking forward to the death of D&D, it'll open up the Heroic High Fantasy genre to some new blood.

D&D won't die for as long as someone thinks they can make money off the name.

Yes, I don't think anyone is predicting "the death of D&D" any time soon.

When a reasonably successful book elsewhere in the industry sells 15,000 books and makes a tidy profit, and "Dungeons and Dragons" has an unsuccessful edition because it only has 1.5 million players - there is absolutely no chance that anyone is going to let the D&D brand die.

No chance at all.

Even if the fanbase halved and halved again it would still be worth keeping the brand alive from a publishing standpoint. The Dresden Files guys are ecstatic (and rightfully so) because they have over 2000 books sold in direct sales alone (and similar amounts through each of a couple of different distributors). But it'll be a cold day in hell before you can't sell fifty or a hundred thousand copies of something called a "Dungeons and Dragons Player's Handbook."

-Username17

You don't think Hasbro'll start focusing the intellectual property into a more profitable area?

Calibron wrote:You don't think Hasbro'll start focusing the intellectual property into a more profitable area?

If they wanted to get rid of their D&D unit, I suspect they'd sell it to someone else rather than just shutting it down.

Just to be clear, when I say "The end is nigh" I mean people are gonna be up in arms like the WHFRP people became with 3.0.

Please lynch Calibron only if you don't agree with D&D dying.

And yet Penny Arcade seems to have blast with the game, and it's my theory that their endorsement allowed 4E to last as long as it did.

I get the feeling they don't actually use the rules except in the most tertiary sense.

Jilocasin wrote:I get the feeling they don't actually use the rules except in the most tertiary sense.

Did the Penny Arcade people ever announce that they had abandoned Skill Challenges, or did they simply use them less and less until they weren't on the menu any more?

-Username17

Eh, I'm pretty sure it was the second one, but I don't frequent the PA forums or listen to any of their podcasts. I do think it's worth nothing though that Gabe is willing to throw out or alter the rules almost completely and spends lots of money and does homebrewed minigames all the time.

FrankTrollman wrote:It also comes out 3 months after the last material made for use with 4th edition D&D (the Rules Compendium, which according to Greg Bilsland's Twitter will have "significant updates" to the core rules).

I looked up the Rules Compendium, and it is part of the essentials line.

Data Vampire wrote:

FrankTrollman wrote:It also comes out 3 months after the last material made for use with 4th edition D&D (the Rules Compendium, which according to Greg Bilsland's Twitter will have "significant updates" to the core rules).

I looked up the Rules Compendium, and it is part of the essentials line.

Weird. It originally wasn't. And indeed, on the Catalog, it's still separate - part of the 4e D&D structure. But if you look at the Specific Entry, you see that it's been changed to be in the Essentials line.

That's weird.

-Username17

A 4E vs Essentials power struggle?

So potentially Essentials could have completely inconsistent rules after the first two books go to print? That would be, well, par for the course I guess.

Penny Arcade is all about getting money for their mouths.

-Crissa

FrankTrollman wrote:

Data Vampire wrote:

FrankTrollman wrote:It also comes out 3 months after the last material made for use with 4th edition D&D (the Rules Compendium, which according to Greg Bilsland's Twitter will have "significant updates" to the core rules).

I looked up the Rules Compendium, and it is part of the essentials line.

Weird. It originally wasn't. And indeed, on the Catalog, it's still separate - part of the 4e D&D structure. But if you look at the Specific Entry, you see that it's been changed to be in the Essentials line.

That's weird.

-Username17

I remember a list from around the Essentials line anouncement that listed the 10 products of line, and the Rules Compendium was listed amoung them.

Date 02/03/10 Coming This Fall ...
List

For Everyone
Dungeons & Dragons Fantasy Roleplaying Game Starter Set (Red Box) -- September 2010
Dungeons & Dragons Rules Compendium -– September 2010
Dungeons & Dragons Roleplaying Game Dice Set -– August 2010

For Players
Heroes of the Fallen Lands -– September 2010
Heroes of the Forgotten Kingdoms -– November 2010

For Dungeon Masters
Dungeon Master’s Kit -– October 2010
Monster Vault -– November 2010
Dungeon Tiles Master Set: The Dungeon -– July 2010
Dungeon Tiles Master Set: The City –- October 2010
Dungeon Tiles Master Set: The Wilderness -– December 2010

Further adjustment to the catalog: PHB Races: Humans ha been canceled. There are no longer any 4e books scheduled after GenCon.

-Username17

FrankTrollman wrote:Further adjustment to the catalog: PHB Races: Humans ha been canceled. There are no longer any 4e books scheduled after GenCon.

-Username17

That is somewhat suggestive, isn't it?

virgileso wrote:And yet Penny Arcade seems to have blast with the game, and it's my theory that their endorsement allowed 4E to last as long as it did.

Remember, Gabe had never actually run a D&D game before 4th ed and has played WoW heavily according to their blog half of their web site.

If memory serves, the game he started running was with other non-tabletop-gamers. They have nothing to reference their gaming experience against. They "dipped" into AD&D lightly as a novelty, but they didn't see the evolution of the game.

Which reinforces what I've said about 4th ed since the beginning: 4th edition was designed to attract non-gamers who love WoW, and it was assumed that hardcore D&D fans would grit their teeth and play since it was the only game in town.

That and I find that Gabe & Tycho really, *really* enjoy nebbish grinding experiences, which 4th ed seems full of. The games they enjoy and obsess over publicly I find to be mind-numbingly annoying. In fact, while I enjoy their comics, their game recommendations tend to do the exact opposite. I approach their suggestions with extreme caution.

Assuming that such a thing is possible, how do you appeal to the grinders without alienating the people who want a game that's fast and/or evolving and/or simple?

Sometimes I think that 4E's approach where you had a strict schedule that detailed when and what you got things and made it universal was a good idea. Not just averting empty levels, but also advertising the crap you DID get very blatantly. I also note that 4E also provides a metric ton of tchotchkes--feats, powers, magical items, backgrounds, rituals, paragon path powers and features, epic destinies and features, etc.

Said worthless gewgaws doesn't necessarily have to be game-transforming, they just have to be THERE. Always keep that reptilian cortex of the brain looking for instant and short-term pleasure stimulated.

TheFlatline wrote: That and I find that Gabe & Tycho really, *really* enjoy nebbish grinding experiences, which 4th ed seems full of. The games they enjoy and obsess over publicly I find to be mind-numbingly annoying. In fact, while I enjoy their comics, their game recommendations tend to do the exact opposite. I approach their suggestions with extreme caution.

Well, they also loved Mass Effect 2, which is not grindy at all, so I guess it depends on the game.