Pathfinder Is Still Bad

[ishy]

The 3.5 orc is CR ½ not 1.

Keep in mind they also changed the int & wis stats around and gave him wpn focus instead of alertness.

[virgil]

They still decreased its CR, more than tripled its HP, and made it more accurate.

[GâtFromKI]

Isn't adventuring supposed to be more like playing the lottery? If you are unlucky you won't make much, but if you get a rich haul than you can already retire basically?

In the D&D 3/Pathfinder/D&D 4 paradigm?

If you adventure for 1 level, you gain a salary of exactly 1 000 gp, or the game is OMGbroken. that's why "craft gun and earn money" is OMGbroken.

[koz]

Holy shit PF.

Does a wizard (or other character that uses a spellbook), receive bonus spells to add to his spellbook when he gains a level in a prestige class that grants an increase to spellcasting?

No. The increase to his spellcasting level does not grant any other benefits, except for spells per day, spells known (for spontaneous casters), and an increase to his overall caster level. He must spend time and gold to add new spells to his spellbook.

Sauce.

So essentially, they've now made PrCing for wizards worse... for some reason. Since full casting PrCs don't actually give you your two spells per level anymore. What. The. Fuck.

[Count Arioch the 28th]

I'm just being an advocate of the Devil here, but isn't it largely agreed that PrCs for Wizard and Cleric generally gave you more powers for nothing?

I'm not saying it's a particularly well thought out or implemented fix, but I can kind of see their motivation.

[koz]

I'm just being an advocate of the Devil here, but isn't it largely agreed that PrCs for Wizard and Cleric generally gave you more powers for nothing?

I'm not saying it's a particularly well thought out or implemented fix, but I can kind of see their motivation.

Clerics are not affected by this - they know their entire spell list already. This is specifically a wizard nerf, and a rather strange one at that.

[rasmuswagner]

I'm just being an advocate of the Devil here, but isn't it largely agreed that PrCs for Wizard and Cleric generally gave you more powers for nothing?

I'm not saying it's a particularly well thought out or implemented fix, but I can kind of see their motivation.

Clerics are not affected by this - they know their entire spell list already. This is specifically a wizard nerf, and a rather strange one at that.

Oh, the Sorcerer got some of that action, too. The limited spell retraining only happens when you take Sorcerer levels, not if you Prestige out.

[Juton]

I'm just being an advocate of the Devil here, but isn't it largely agreed that PrCs for Wizard and Cleric generally gave you more powers for nothing?

I'm not saying it's a particularly well thought out or implemented fix, but I can kind of see their motivation.

Clerics are not affected by this - they know their entire spell list already. This is specifically a wizard nerf, and a rather strange one at that.

Maybe this was back in the beta, but I thought it used to be that only advancing in cleric would unlock new domain spells. I'm not sure if this is still the case, but I think your domain powers are based off just your cleric level not your caster level.

[Pseudo Stupidity]

Spells cost such a tiny amount of gold that you're still often better off PRCing out unless you think you'll hit 20 and want a sweet capstone. Divination wizard to level 8 then loremaster past that is totally worthwhile. You gain several feat-equivalents (an actual bonus feat, toughness as a bonus feat, +2 to saves that matter) and +whatthefuck to knowledge skills. Loremaster is worth the 300 or so gold you'll be wasting each level on the 2 spells you'd have gotten for free. The only problem is you light a feat on fire with skill focus (knowledge), but you gain so many feats it doesn't even matter.

Straight wizard got buffed pretty hard, so you're losing that bonus feat every 5 levels (so you lose up to 2), +1 hp/level from favored class and you won't get your fucking amazing capstone, but loremaster is pretty worth it. Hell, just dip it three levels or so when you aren't getting new spell levels to get a net gain of a feat and a language at the cost of 3 hp and six spells.

But yeah, it's stupid you don't get free spells and makes people not want to PRC out of the best class in the game even more.

[ishy]

I always get the feeling the paizo devs hate multi-classing and prestige classes. So anyway they can make them crappy but allows them to say, that it was always like that, we are just clarifying it, is a win in their book.

[Juton]

I always get the feeling the paizo devs hate multi-classing and prestige classes. So anyway they can make them crappy but allows them to say, that it was always like that, we are just clarifying it, is a win in their book.

I think it's more than a feeling, I think they've stated words to that effect before. At the very least the have the idea that munchkins will love to 'abuse' multiclassing while the true and good roleplayers will straightclass. You can also see it in their ratio of base classes to prestige classes, they've released 11 new base classes and only 36 new prestige classes in their 3-4 years. WotC put out that many prestige classes in about 2 complete books, so compared to WotC Paizo absolutely hates PrCs.

[hogarth]

I always get the feeling the paizo devs hate multi-classing and prestige classes. So anyway they can make them crappy but allows them to say, that it was always like that, we are just clarifying it, is a win in their book.

I think it's more than a feeling, I think they've stated words to that effect before. At the very least the have the idea that munchkins will love to 'abuse' multiclassing while the true and good roleplayers will straightclass.

Here's a couple of James Jacobs's comments on prestige classes:

Paizo does not dislike prestige classes. I actually quite like them; I actually like them better than archetypes. But there absolutely WAS a bloating of prestige classes during the 3rd edition era, and a lot of gamers got sick of them, and as a result we saw a LOT of "don't do prestige classes" from our customers, and so we didn't. I think that now we're at a place where we COULD start doing prestige classes again. And so we have been; but generally in things like the APs or the Campaign Setting line. And we'll keep doing them. More if more folks ask for them.

...but I just wanted to point out that Paizo is not against multiclassing or prestige classes. One of the main design goals of Pathfinder was to make the base classes viable from 1st to 20th level, but that doesn't also mean we hate prestige classes. It just means we want the base classes to be worth it from start to end... otherwise we'd just do 10 level base classes and let folks multiclass or prestige class once they go beyond 10th level.

Note, however, that the prestige classes that JJ likes are usually the kind that are terrible mechanically, but they have fluff associated with them so that makes them good, right? That's why he mentions putting them in the (fluff-heavy) adventure paths and campaign setting product lines.

[CatharzGodfoot]

I always get the feeling the paizo devs hate multi-classing and prestige classes. So anyway they can make them crappy but allows them to say, that it was always like that, we are just clarifying it, is a win in their book.

I think it's more than a feeling, I think they've stated words to that effect before. At the very least the have the idea that munchkins will love to 'abuse' multiclassing while the true and good roleplayers will straightclass. You can also see it in their ratio of base classes to prestige classes, they've released 11 new base classes and only 36 new prestige classes in their 3-4 years. WotC put out that many prestige classes in about 2 complete books, so compared to WotC Paizo absolutely hates PrCs.

The Tomes have a similar ratio. WotC too often created PrCs for things which should have been playable from level 1.

[Daztur]

I'm just being an advocate of the Devil here, but isn't it largely agreed that PrCs for Wizard and Cleric generally gave you more powers for nothing?

I'm not saying it's a particularly well thought out or implemented fix, but I can kind of see their motivation.

Clerics are not affected by this - they know their entire spell list already. This is specifically a wizard nerf, and a rather strange one at that.

This sort of thing is the biggest reason there no way in fuck I'm going to run Pathfinder, far more than anything else in this thread there are just so many tiny changes of this sort that I'd never keep them straight.

[koz]

rasmus: This has always been the case - it's hardly unique to Pathfailure that Skip Hates Sorcerers.

The reason I find this to be really weird is that basically, this is a completely weird, asymmetric nerf, targeted at wizards and nobody else, based on a common misconception people used to have... about five years ago, if memory serves.

[A Man In Black]

Um.

The samsarans, from the upcoming "Dragon Empires Gazetteer," have blue skin.

Samsarans are a race who are not born—they are reincarnated. They can remember snippets of many past lives, and make excellent wizards and clerics, for they are as wise as they are intelligent. They're also generally very tied to traditions and honorable and kind-hearted... but there are ALWAYS exceptions.

[CapnTthePirateG]

I assume we're supposed to recognize the 4e blatant ripoff? That's fucking sad. Profanity required.

[hogarth]

I assume we're supposed to recognize the 4e blatant ripoff? That's fucking sad. Profanity required.

Can you be more specific with your comment? I'm pretty sure 4E didn't invent the Hindu concept of reincarnation.

[Pseudo Stupidity]

The keywords you're looking for that make it a 4e ripoff are the following.

Not born- they are reincarnated; Remember snippets of many past lives; as wise as they are intelligent; tied to tradition; honorable; kind-hearted.

4e Devas are beings that are reincarnated and remember snippets of their many past lives, have +2 wis and +2 int, are pretty much always good (basically angels) and are all about that honor and tradition shit. They also like dressing in fancy things that look like wings, which I'm sure Paizo will add soon once they realize they forgot it.

They stole the one really flavorful race from 4e, a change of pace after stealing everything from 3.5.

[GâtFromKI]

ZOMG they stole the concept of Deva from D&D 4, just like James Cameron stole the concept of Space Hulk from GW!

I also think Bayonetta stole the whole angel concept from D&D.

[Pseudo Stupidity]

If it was just the concept that'd be fine, as I'm sure the concept is old as dirt.

They clearly stole the fucking mechanics and flavor (they're good, honorable, traditional and have vague memories of past lives). That's a pretty blatant ripoff.

You can at least change something if you're going to do that. Well, I guess they changed the name.

[hogarth]

The keywords you're looking for that make it a 4e ripoff are the following.

Not born- they are reincarnated; Remember snippets of many past lives; as wise as they are intelligent; tied to tradition; honorable; kind-hearted.

4e Devas are beings that are reincarnated and remember snippets of their many past lives, have +2 wis and +2 int, are pretty much always good (basically angels) and are all about that honor and tradition shit. They also like dressing in fancy things that look like wings, which I'm sure Paizo will add soon once they realize they forgot it.

They stole the one really flavorful race from 4e, a change of pace after stealing everything from 3.5.

Interesting.

[ishy]

Is there anything in the entire pathfinder product line other than adventures paths and settings etc. that isn't a blatant rip off?

And is ripping good stuff not actually still better than inventing your own crappy stuff?

[Pseudo Stupidity]

Well, while it's likely better than anything Paizo could write, it's sad they're stealing from 4e. Why? Because 4e doesn't need to get kicked while it's down.

They do their own thing sometimes, it's just bad more often than not. The gunslinger was genuinely Pathfinder, complete with being full-on retarded as far as functioning (especially at level 1) in a normal campaign world goes.

[hogarth]

According to Twitter and their latest strip, the folks at Penny Arcade are getting into the Pathfinder Beginner Box set. That'll probably garner them a few more customers.