Solution to the Tea Party.

[Maj]

After PR's conversation, I figured I'd add my own...

My mother-in-law sent this saccharin "life lesson" to Ess and it's resulted in a completely surreal conversation.

A young woman was about to finish her first year of college. Like so many others her age, she considered herself to be very liberal, and among other liberal ideals, was very much in favor of higher taxes to support more government programs, in other words redistribution of wealth.

She was deeply ashamed that her father was a rather staunch conservative, a feeling she openly expressed. Based on the lectures that she had participated in, and the occasional chat with a professor, she felt that her father had for years harbored an evil, selfish desire to keep what he thought should be his.

One day she was challenging her father on his opposition to higher taxes on the rich and the need for more government programs. The self-professed objectivity proclaimed by her professors had to be the truth and she indicated so to her father. He responded by asking how she was doing in school.

Taken aback, she answered rather haughtily that she had a 4.0 GPA, and let him know that it was tough to maintain, insisting that she was taking a very difficult course load and was constantly studying, which left her no time to go out and party like other people she knew. She didn't even have time for a boyfriend, and didn't really have many college friends because she spent all her time studying.

Her father listened and then asked, "How is your friend Audrey doing?"

She replied, "Audrey is barely getting by. All she takes are easy classes, she never studies and she barely has a 2.0 GPA. She is so popular on campus; college for her is a blast. She's always invited to all the parties and lots of times she doesn't even show up for classes because she's too hung over."

Her wise father asked his daughter, "Why don't you go to the Dean's office and ask him to deduct 1.0 off your GPA and give it to your friend who only has a 2.0. That way you will both have a 3.0 GPA and certainly that would be a fair and equal distribution of GPA."

The daughter, visibly shocked by her father's suggestion, angrily fired back, "That's a crazy idea, how would that be fair! I've worked really hard for my grades! I've invested a lot of time, and a lot of hard work! Audrey has done next to nothing toward her degree. She played while I worked my tail off!"


The father slowly smiled, winked and said gently, "Welcome to the conservative side of the fence."

[Maj]

Ess fired back a reply that was admittedly a little short because he just finished going through this same BS with my dad (only my dad recognized his erroneous thinking and stopped being prickish).

Do you realize that every time you send me something like this, you're accusing me of being a lazy person? Beyond the sting of that implied accusation, however, crap like this has already been proven wrong.

It's called the Just World fallacy:

http://youarenotsosmart.com/2010/06/07/ ... d-fallacy/


The simple fact is, in the real world, there is only a very loose connection between hard work and success. Conservatives use the Just World fallacy to justify their desire to keep money in the hands of the very rich -- after all, if the rich got rich by working hard (which only a small minority actually did), then the poor are poor because they don't work hard (which is demonstrably bullshit -- watch any episode of Undercover Boss to see someone learning that lesson firsthand.)

All of the cute little fables are JUST cute little fables -- in the real world, single mothers work three jobs and get paid less than a living wage for it while the people who "have" are more often than not people who gambled on the stock market and got lucky, or exploited one of various methods of legally screwing over thousands of people...or, quite regularly, they inherited it because of their great-grandfather doing one of the above. Of the remaining people, the majority of the rest got rich because of an idea they had, not the amount of work they did. That's not to say that there aren't plenty of counterexamples -- but statistically...

Well, let's take a look. Of the Forbes 400 in 2010, a full 25% (109) were Wall Street financiers -- they got their money by selling the synthetic CDOs that killed the economy and collecting huge fees while they did it, or they simply gambled on stocks and got lucky. Scammers and lottery winners. A full HALF of them inherited a business or substantial wealth and simply didn't waste it.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and- ... us-suffer/
http://www.faireconomy.org/press_room/1 ... forbes_400

That means that only 25% of the list has the POTENTIAL to be in the position their in due to "hard work". There's significant possibility that many of them were smart, cunning, or simply lucky rather than hard-working.

The conservative "hard work = success" view point is a complete and utter lie. If it weren't, I personally know at least seven single mothers who would be on the Forbes 400 by now. The simple fact is that wealthy people don't work harder, they aren't better people, and they tend to be kind of douchebags:

http://www.rationalskepticism.org/news- ... 17377.html

All of this serves as the contrapositive to my real point, which is that I am -- and the other 45% of the country that is collecting food stamps, Temporary Assistance for Needy Families, and/or unemployment benefits are -- not lazy. No one can or will use the fact that they have more money than I do to justify the notion that they deserve their wealth and I deserve to be poor. That's utter bullshit.

You can question the notion that it's "fair" for the government to take money away from the rich and give it to the poor -- but you WILL NOT EVER rightly believe that the rich and poor "deserve" to be in the positions they're in.

[Maj]

The conversation went back and forth with some details that I don't feel at liberty to post, but came to a screeching halt when Ess asked his mom this:

Have you noticed that every time we really get into it, I pull out statistics, logic, sociology, and psychology that backs up what I think, and you inevitably just say "hey, I believe what I believe and it ain't changing it regardless"?

The reply...?

The reason I don't (use links to websites to) argue my viewpoint is that you can find support for just about any point of view you wish to find support, whether using statistics, logic, sociology or psychology... It's a loosing game that I really don't wish to play.

Yeah, I know you think I always just fall back on 'that's my belief and I'm sticking to it'. Fine. I don't apologize for my opinions nor do I feel a need to justify them... The life experience behind them and some modicum of innate intelligence have lead me to believe they have a solid basis, and since I'm having this dialog with my son, and not trying to change the opinion of the world, I don't wish to waste energy pursuing the 'loosing game' mentioned above. It is what it is.

This sort of world view completely boggles my mind. Utterly. Why should people even bother to learn to read if everything is just made up and facts should be avoided?

[sabs]

Ah yes, the old, everyone whose poor didn't work hard and is a lazy bastard who should suck it, conservative mantra.

[Juton]

There was a finding somewhere, that when someone is presented with statistics that contradict a falsely held belief, their belief is actually reinforced. If that's true how can you ever hope to persuade anyone?

[sabs]

The Guillotine?

[Maj]

There was a finding somewhere, that when someone is presented with statistics that contradict a falsely held belief, their belief is actually reinforced. If that's true how can you ever hope to persuade anyone?

Gradually.

Head-on confrontation is more likely to reinforce someone else's opinion because is puts them in a situation where they have to face the idea that something intrinsic to them is wrong. Yelling, "Change your mind because you're stupid/bad/wrong" just makes a person come up with every and any reason to justify the fact that they are not, in fact, stupid/bad/wrong.

If you can find a way to sidle up to someone's opinion so the person isn't bombarded with cognitive dissonance, they can change their opinion without the freaking out. For example, it was a book about Public Relations that changed my thinking about the Libertarian political perspective, and it's a book about Twinkies that's making me rethink energy policy. Neither book actually addresses either of those subjects.

The thing about the exchange is that it's over the idea that redistribution of wealth is a bad thing. While Ess isn't for it all willy-nilly, he does believe that it's required in order to fix the economy. His mom, though, has the knee-jerk response of "BAD!!!!!!" like most of the stereotypical tea-partiers, yet she actually agrees that the current distribution of wealth is a problem.

[Count Arioch the 28th]

I have run against a similiar phenomenom before.

Although it is more effort for you to do so, I would recomend that Ess not communicate with your mother unless at great need. I understand it being your mother that it's harder for you, but Ess has no real reason to speak to her. (I think I spoke to my mother in law maybe twice a year when I was married, and it suited me just fine. Then again, I was told by my ex that she called me some rather nasty names when I wasn't around, so it made it easier.) I have found it impossible to persuade anyone of anything.

TL;DR: Haters gonna hate.

[sabs]

Actually its' Ess's Mother, not his mother in law.
it's Maj's mother in law.

Not talking to one's own mother is always more problematic.

[Count Arioch the 28th]

Ah, nuts. Sorry, mis-read it.

Not talking to one's own mother is not a good solution in most cases, but I stand by the "Haters gonna Hate" line.

[Koumei]

The Guillotine?

The method of execution (which generally doesn't leave much time for a change of mind) or the chokehold?

[Kaelik]

Not that it would work in this situation, but one way to convince people is to call someone else stupid, and make them look stupid for having that opinion. Even people with that opinion will sometimes realize they are wrong, as long as it's someone else you are making fun of.

[Neeeek]

After PR's conversation, I figured I'd add my own...

My mother-in-law sent this saccharin "life lesson" to Ess and it's resulted in a completely surreal conversation.

I found that story kind of hilarious, actually. My response to it is pretty simple: I've got a BA and a JD, and I'll probably get 2 or 3 Master's degrees before I die. Possibly another doctorate. And I'm an incredibly lazy student. I've been known to have hour long debates in classes where I read a one page summary of the 500 page book the debate is about. Hell, I aced a final once by rephrasing an idea I once read in a sci-fi novel. If anyone doesn't deserve the scholastic success they've had, it's me. Yet I do just fine and my classmates routinely ask me for help when they are have trouble, because I tend to be obviously better at the subject, whatever it happens to be.

Hard work, especially in school, isn't nearly as important to success as knowing how to work the system and, frankly, natural talent/having a good memory.

[Sashi]

Hell, I aced a final once by rephrasing an idea I once read in a sci-fi novel. If anyone doesn't deserve the scholastic success they've had, it's me.

I got a perfect score on the Verbal of the GRE because I had read Snow Crash.

[violence in the media]

His mom, though, has the knee-jerk response of "BAD!!!!!!" like most of the stereotypical tea-partiers, yet she actually agrees that the current distribution of wealth is a problem.

I've seen the same thing. These people are genuinely offended by the mental image of Wall Street types rolling around in McDuck money bins, but then they get behind Republicans who say that the Democrats aren't properly incentivizing these guys to create jobs because of all the pesky regulations and taxes and uncertainty. What. The. Fuck.

It's like people have this shared fantasy that some do-gooding capitalist is going to ride in and create well-paying jobs that hard-working Americans will fill. He'll do this somehow without screwing real Americans somewhere else, without claiming exorbitant sums for himself and his investors, and without strengthening any economy but America's. Finally, he'll accomplish this task without raising the spectre that the government is going to "redistribute" your $40K salary or the miscellaneous collection of crap you leave to people in your will.

[RobbyPants]

Hard work, especially in school, isn't nearly as important to success as knowing how to work the system and, frankly, natural talent/having a good memory.

That's what I've been trying to tell my cousin for a long time. He has many legitimate complaints about the system, but he utterly refuses to work with it or to make it work for him. He just complains and wonders why the world seems to shit on him.

[sabs]

Americans have this shared delusion that if you just work hard enough, you too can be that rich guy. Americans dream of making $1 Million a year, and so the idea that you're going to tax those people. Just aint cool, cause that could be me one day.

Even if that's just fucking ludicrous.

[Count Arioch the 28th]

Well, in your cousin's defense, the college system IS pretty counter-intuitive if you haven't been properly prepared. I myself am only now learning after 3 years, and I still mess up a lot.

I think it's due to my peasant upbringing. I have a feeling if I was born to the aristocracy I would have been trained to do this. Not that what I did learn is without merit, I just wish I had learned to be prosperous rather than tough.

[RobbyPants]

Well, in your cousin's defense, the college system IS pretty counter-intuitive if you haven't been properly prepared. I myself am only now learning after 3 years, and I still mess up a lot.

I think it's due to my peasant upbringing. I have a feeling if I was born to the aristocracy I would have been trained to do this. Not that what I did learn is without merit, I just wish I had learned to be prosperous rather than tough.

Oh, and I agree with you and him on these matters. My complaint isn't that he thinks the system sucks (it does). My complaint is he refuses to work with it at all. He basically complains about it and does nothing to fix it. Granted, while fixing it is a monumental task, I find his approach to be a complete lose-lose situation.

Basically, he's refusing to take any action to improve his situation. Yes, I know about learned helplessness and all, but literally doing nothing is a certain road toward failure. At least if he tries, he has a chance of succeeding. Maybe he's waiting for some random winfall or something.

[Count Arioch the 28th]

I get what you are saying. I know a couple people like that.

[Psychic Robot]

My parents are the exact same way. They're very much Reagan Republicans (my dad much more so than my mom), but they think that it's morally wrong for the CEO of Walmart to be making $35 million a year while his serfs making just above minimum wage. But they won't support taxes on the wealthy because they believe in supply-side economics.

The problem, I think, is that the conservatives who lived through Reagan's reign of destruction have an emotional attachment to him. They see the charming, charismatic Gipper who could pat us on the back while standing firm against the Soviets, and they remember the economic boons under him caused by his unsustainable policies. They remember the good ol' days, as they were, and that cements in their mind Reagan as one of the greatest presidents the United States has. And if he's great, his ideology was great, and that means that the poor just need to work harder.

Now, that being said, I do agree that hard work is a contributing factor to success. The liberal idea that "oh no the corporate overlords are killing everything" has a basis in reality, but the idea that there is no possible way to get ahead and that the American dread is dead is a load of bull. Post-Reagan, things are a lot harder, but a man does not need to be ultra-wealthy to be successful.