The Gaming Den

TheFlatline wrote: I should amend that the retcon/reboot option almost *always* happens when a new company takes over the IP.

I would personally throw caution to the wind, accepting even mediocre material (after all, the new company is going to hire at least some of the old hands back) in return for the current crop of rascals being shown the door on a permanent basis.

TheFlatline wrote: If for whatever reason Topps awarded the IP to a different company there might be a significant chance of rewriting some history or as was also posted, jumping forward 50 or 60 years and retaining the history, but not the direction BT lore is going in.

I am not entirely sure of the post-3132 direction... it seems to involve a lot of ginchy BattleMechs making a comeback in various forms, and a lot of fighting among the remnants of the once-Great Houses. Or so I gathered from the MW:DA materials I saw online.

I actually would not mind someone writing scenarios where an IndustrialMech was the best you could get for the job at hand. Things would be seriously down powered, but you could do it.

The trouble is, we'd see tanks become ascendant again and this ain't 'TankTech', it's giant stompy robots. So the transition would have to be very, very brief.

Or so it seems to me.

Do you think Shadowrun would have to endure something similar?

Cent13

Plot-wise? Nah... not at this place in time. SR4 still hasn't moved very far beyond what the old vanguard of writers had developed. I hate the matrix rules, but the metaplot was pretty decent.

Now, if CGL keeps SR for another couple years, that could all change. I mean, you are seeing a surprising amount of writing concerning Salt Lake City and the Mormons... I have a hedging suspicion they'd like to make SLC the new "default" setting.

The Great Mormon Conspiracy aside, I don't see that happening. For better or for worse, Seattle has been the default setting for 20 years and that's never going to change. And to be fair, we haven't seen any SLC-centric material published.

Oh look... over a month has passed and IMR has yet to pay me for now-published contracted work. What a shocker. I'm debating if it's even worth pursuing.

Don't Missions adventures take place in and around Denver these days? And the fan favorite from Runner Havens was Hong Kong, not Seattle.

Seattle being the default of anything is very much subject to change.

-Username17

The second season of Missions was in Denver. Season three was in Manhattan. The next season of Missions was intentionally moved back to Seattle because, according to the dev team, "it's what everyone uses as their default setting".

Again. I don't see it changing. Ever. Seattle and SR are like chocolate and peanut butter. Even if the write-up in Runner Havens sucked. Plus Seattle 2072 has been out for a long while now.

Moving Missions back to Seattle was something I pushed heavily for. I thought it was daft that CGL had just published a big book all about Seattle and didn't have anything else on the schedule that could be used to forward plots inside the city that most people used. Meanwhile, Manhattan Missions wasn't lighting the world on fire, and so getting support for other electronic-only projects was difficult as hell.

Everybody had a hell of a time trying to get anything worked into Missions. I tried to work a Dawn of the Artifacts crossover, didn't happen. The people in charge just weren't interested in it at all. Ideas were solicited for working something, anything from DotA in there to cross-promote and the Mission writers wouldn't take any ideas and kept throwing out such complete shit I finally said to hell with it.

Honestly, and with all respect to John Dunn and Stephen McQuillian for the work they put into it, I never understood what the hell they were trying to do with Missions. The adventures when they were free got some decent feedback, but they didn't try to showcase new products or settings at all, and the focus on tournament play meant that there were tremendous restrictions on what your character options actually were. It was terribly frustrating.

Ancient History wrote:Everybody had a hell of a time trying to get anything worked into Missions. I tried to work a Dawn of the Artifacts crossover, didn't happen. The people in charge just weren't interested in it at all. Ideas were solicited for working something, anything from DotA in there to cross-promote and the Mission writers wouldn't take any ideas and kept throwing out such complete shit I finally said to hell with it.

Honestly, and with all respect to John Dunn and Stephen McQuillian for the work they put into it, I never understood what the hell they were trying to do with Missions. The adventures when they were free got some decent feedback, but they didn't try to showcase new products or settings at all, and the focus on tournament play meant that there were tremendous restrictions on what your character options actually were. It was terribly frustrating.

That is in-fucking-sane. These events are supposed to cross over into printed material to generate buzz. Even if you foreshadowed an event in a mission it could generate buzz and sales.

I always tried to tie in any BattleTech "World-Wide" event with a print product, but I had the exact opposite problem as you Bobby. My problem was that the writers couldn't be bothered to mesh the events of the universe with the events of the "event". It was like pulling teeth.

Dunn and Osterhout were always really easy to work with. The BattleTech writers could be real bung-holes sometimes.

I was always very frustrated that FanPro and CGL seemed to think that the sum total of thier marketing efforts should be to have a website and to have a booth at GenCon. I always harped on the fact that gamers are in game stores. Let's market there.

Oh well. Water under zee bridge.

Clutch

I think Denver was successful in its way because it was spearheaded by two competent SR writers who could take advantage of the, then, newness of SR4. I don't think 'Street Magic' had even been released when John and Stephen started Denver.

Missions, as they stand now, have three big problems working against them:

1) The attempt is to recreate the feel of 'Living Forgotten Realms' without an understanding of how LFR works (or doesn't).

2) They're written by 'insiders' who might as well be working on the outside. Communication between the dev team/freelancers and Missions is shoddy at best but usually non-existent. Yes, AH tossed in his ideas on DotA tie-ins but only 'Dusk' and 'Midnight' had been released and 'Harlequin's Gambit' was still only in the discussion stage. There wasn't much to grasp at.

The globe-trotting tone of DotA isn't appropriate for a Seattle Missions setting but that's a different discussion.

3) The SR freelancers and devs don't want to write Missions because the pay is crap. So you have the Missions Coordinators grabbing whoever is interested. Even people who flat out admit that they don't know how to write. Run-on sentences, comma splices, inappropriate punctuation, irritating word repetition, etc. etc. I actually re-wrote two entire Manhattan Missions by hand because it was quicker than actually trying to put in edit notes. I made more money and spent a quarter of the time aping Sean MacDonald's map-style in Illustrator and Photoshop than writing.

The Manhattan Missions setting PDF was a piece of crap and the perfect example of what happens when you have 10+ writers and people who don't know how to make maps. I don't know why it was even created because no writers referenced it. As far as I know, the sequel was scrapped. I might as well post my revised 'Manhattan: Organized Crime' and 'Seattle: Rain City' drafts for free since I'm probably never going to be paid for them.

I pushed to have the Missions team rededicated as the SR "B Team;" writing PDF-only 32 page adventures that might actually sell to the general public. But the idea was shot down.

The current Missions season is being split into two parts: the reunification of the Ork Underground with Seattle and some sort of ambiguous tie-in to DotA.

I'm also not surprised that SR products designed for tournament play don't sell. As long as Missions continues down the same production path that trend will stay the same.

2) They're written by 'insiders' who might as well be working on the outside. Communication between the dev team/freelancers and Missions is shoddy at best but usually non-existent. Yes, AH tossed in his ideas on DotA tie-ins but only 'Dusk' and 'Midnight' had been released and 'Harlequin's Gambit' was still only in the discussion stage. There wasn't much to grasp at.

The globe-trotting tone of DotA isn't appropriate for a Seattle Missions setting but that's a different discussion.

No offense Wes, but as I recall you were part of the problem. The problem had nothing to do with anyone's desire to turn Missions into some globe-trotting fiasco; I bent over backwards trying to work ideas that would fit into the overhaul storyline without moving Missions outside of its current sprawl. The problem was the Missions people didn't want to play, and the ideas they threw out were absolute crap that had nothing to do with the plot at all.

The SR freelancers and devs don't want to write Missions because the pay is crap. So you have the Missions Coordinators grabbing whoever is interested.

No...in point of fact, I at least offered to help out pro bono once or twice. The problem is that Missions were generally shit and uninteresting and there weren't many of us in the freelancer pool to spare. If you had to make a choice between working on Feral Cities or trying to correct the latest railroad in Denver, guess which one most people will pick?

Ancient History wrote:No offense Wes, but as I recall you were part of the problem. The problem had nothing to do with anyone's desire to turn Missions into some globe-trotting fiasco; I bent over backwards trying to work ideas that would fit into the overhaul storyline without moving Missions outside of its current sprawl. The problem was the Missions people didn't want to play, and the ideas they threw out were absolute crap that had nothing to do with the plot at all.

No offense Bobby, but you threw out a handful of very vague ideas which wouldn't qualify as plot seeds. So I think we may have some very different definitions of bending over backwards. I was also the only one who was putting out anything resembling fleshed out ideas. If you want to call them crap, that's your prerogative, but hanging out with the Sinsearch and escorting Frosty does not a four hour Missions/tournament adventure make.

Trying to build something out of loose concepts that haven't been committed to a product when you're not even working with the dev team is impossible.

Ancient History wrote:No...in point of fact, I at least offered to help out pro bono once or twice. The problem is that Missions were generally shit and uninteresting and there weren't many of us in the freelancer pool to spare. If you had to make a choice between working on Feral Cities or trying to correct the latest railroad in Denver, guess which one most people will pick?

*shrug* If you say so.

FrankTrollman wrote:Randall Bills has certainly permanently lost my trust. The moment someone says that they are putting religion before justice, integrity, and financial rectitude they have thoroughly painted themselves with the irrationality brush. They literally cannot be trusted, because they have said that the voices of invisible spirits that only they can hear are more important than honoring contracts. Or you know, acting in a trustworthy fashion.

I haven't been on here for a while and I know there were a couple of discussions I was involved in where I haven't responded yet. But I've just been doing a quick catch up on this thread and I want to comment on the above.

I'm a deeply religious person. I am not (much) offended by Frank's dismissal of my beliefs. So long as Frank treats me the same as everybody else, it makes no difference and Frank is more than entitled to his belief. But I want to say that if Frank, as an atheist, finds it offensive that someone uses their religion to justify wrong-doing, then trust me when I say that it's not remotely as offensive as it is to me when they use their religion to justify their wrong doing.

I'm (rather obviously) not a Mormon, but it's shameful for *anyone* to justify wrong-doing by saying "God gave me permission".

FrankTrollman wrote:

Clutch9800 wrote:

Randall apparently said that at an owner's meeting.

What do you mean "Owners Meeting"? I thought we'd pretty much established that the Coleman's own the whole kit and kaboodle.

If there was an "Owners Meeting" and people were invited to it wouldn't that legally imply that they were owners?

Clutch

That at least is easy: Loren Coleman has been telling about 12-15 people simultaneously that they did in fact own some portion of In Media Res for the last 3 or 4 years. He has taken money from them in exchange for this, written pieces of paper that said that they owned "stock", held meetings with these "owners" and filled out Tax Forms as if they were entitled to some portion of the company's profits by dint of owning parts of it.

I'm pretty sure I've seen this movie. It was called the Producers and ended with them blowing up the Theatre to get out of the messy financial commitments they'd made.

Wesley Street wrote:

Ancient History wrote:No offense Wes, but as I recall you were part of the problem. The problem had nothing to do with anyone's desire to turn Missions into some globe-trotting fiasco; I bent over backwards trying to work ideas that would fit into the overhaul storyline without moving Missions outside of its current sprawl. The problem was the Missions people didn't want to play, and the ideas they threw out were absolute crap that had nothing to do with the plot at all.

No offense Bobby, but you threw out a handful of very vague ideas which wouldn't qualify as plot seeds. So I think we may have some very different definitions of bending over backwards. I was also the only one who was putting out anything resembling fleshed out ideas.

Okay, let's not have this argument here. I don't recall if you had access to the first round of ideas I pitched, and I know I don't have access anymore to the ideas you pitched since they kicked me off of basecamp.

We can both at least agree that Missions has seen a lot of missed opportunities. DotA was one, the Desert Wars campaign was another, and then there was that silly not-a-contest where the "winner" was supposed to write an adventure and which got swept under the rug or forgotten.

This topic got interesting again all of a sudden.

Oh look... over a month has passed and IMR has yet to pay me for now-published contracted work. What a shocker. I'm debating if it's even worth pursuing.

Let us know if/when they do. I am really curious whether they have improved in this area as they have alleged.

Everybody had a hell of a time trying to get anything worked into Missions. I tried to work a Dawn of the Artifacts crossover, didn't happen. The people in charge just weren't interested in it at all. Ideas were solicited for working something, anything from DotA in there to cross-promote and the Mission writers wouldn't take any ideas and kept throwing out such complete shit I finally said to hell with it.

Honestly, and with all respect to John Dunn and Stephen McQuillian for the work they put into it, I never understood what the hell they were trying to do with Missions. The adventures when they were free got some decent feedback, but they didn't try to showcase new products or settings at all, and the focus on tournament play meant that there were tremendous restrictions on what your character options actually were. It was terribly frustrating.

I was kind of digging Missions up until they A) Started being in Manhattan; B) Apparently continued being based on the continuity of NPCs in all 25+ Denver missions and C) Most importantly STOPPED being free.

I pushed to have the Missions team rededicated as the SR "B Team;" writing PDF-only 32 page adventures that might actually sell to the general public. But the idea was shot down.

Why?

@Knasser: I have some more feedback for you, (the kind that you are very angry here about never receiving. I will e-mail it to you if/when I get a spare moment or ten to compose my thoughts.

knasser wrote:I'm a deeply religious person. I am not (much) offended by Frank's dismissal of my beliefs. So long as Frank treats me the same as everybody else, it makes no difference and Frank is more than entitled to his belief. But I want to say that if Frank, as an atheist, finds it offensive that someone uses their religion to justify wrong-doing, then trust me when I say that it's not remotely as offensive as it is to me when they use their religion to justify their wrong doing.

You don't really know that. The thing is, there is literally nothing in the universe more annoying to me than someone using "God" as a reason for anything. And I'm the guy who gets mad about everything.

So maybe you are more upset, but maybe not.

Schwarzkopf wrote: I was kind of digging Missions up until they ... C) Most importantly STOPPED being free.

If you were signed up to the demo team and running the minimum number of games per year (I think it was 4, but I don't remember exactly) you got all the Missions free and you got them well in advance of their PDF release -- just the manuscripts, but usable.

Kaelik wrote: You don't really know that. The thing is, there is literally nothing in the universe more annoying to me than someone using "God" as a reason for anything. And I'm the guy who gets mad about everything.

Well I can't say that it's universal, but the point I'm making is that when someone tries to implicate you in their wrong-doing it adds an extra layer of bile to the whole thing. I mean if, for example, you were white and you saw two other white people beating up a black person, that would be bad. But if they then come up and clap you on the back and say "we white people got to stick together", it's going to make you pretty pissed off even independently of the actual assault.

No, you may be more offended by this than me, who knows? But you see the point I'm making that his behaviour can be even more offensive to religious people than to the non-religious. Aside from all that, as someone who believes in God, I find it insulting to God to try to commit wrongs in his name. That's something atheists wont be worrying about.

Anyway, not trying to compete on how angry we are with him. Just explaining a reason which may not have occured to people why the relgious can be as or more angry with such behaviour than the non-religious.

http://www.shadowrun4.com/wordpress/2010/09/devblogging-the-people-of-war/ wrote:The writers were definitely smokin’ the freelancer crack, as we like to say,

Did anyone see this blog update and do a spit take?

Aside from how unprofessional it is, and ignoring the insult to people who are dealing substance abuse problems, why would a company with a history of failing to pay their freelance talent allow their spokesman to make a comment like that?

Maybe it's all about IMR failing to be professional, which wouldn't surprise me in the least.

T'be honest, "freelancer crack" is an in-house joke for Shadowrun that's been going on for years, much like "d20 gives you cancer." It's pretty much the SR answer to "what were they smoking?" and with no particular intent to offend anybody.

The real offensive thing in that post is that it demonstrates how completely Jason Hardy doesn't know what the fuck he's talking about.

..and of course, it's pointless to say anything negative about his comments, because they'll do pretty much what they do on every Catalyst site - erase the negative remark. It doesn't exist, right? So everything comes up roses.

I have seen some really incompetent people in positions of power, and not just one or two, in my past couple of careers. It occurs to me that while they may suck at their job, or suck as managers, or suck as supervisors, they do excel at something and at times I like to think I've almost put my finger on it.

You can understand my carrying on about the 'Inner Ring'... there really isn't any other way to describe it. And no way to combat it. Maybe the property will prosper financially and creatively, and maybe it won't. But the one thing you can be sure is that as long as they last, Shadowrun and BattleTech will feed the egos of the people who write it and the folks who (mis)manage the company.

Seen in that light, Jason Hardy's continued employment in his current position is not strange in the least.

Cent13

The real offensive thing in that post is that it demonstrates how completely Jason Hardy doesn't know what the fuck he's talking about.

I have seen some really incompetent people in positions of power, and not just one or two, in my past couple of careers. It occurs to me that while they may suck at their job, or suck as managers, or suck as supervisors, they do excel at something and at times I like to think I've almost put my finger on it.

If I was still getting offended by mere incompetence--even in positions of authority--I'd have gone on a killing spree a long time ago. After spending a year rewriting doctoral dissertations for dipshits with degrees who have a masters and are going for a PhD but can't and won't learn the difference between "ominous" and "anonymous" let alone how to fucking CITE properly, my 'ineptitude based rage' limit break is set pretty high. Reading that post by Jason, I got barely a tick on my meter.

That said, I think that he meant "freelancer crack" in a positive sense. Although it does seem like a weird sentence to just be tossing out there.

You can understand my carrying on about the 'Inner Ring'... there really isn't any other way to describe it. And no way to combat it. Maybe the property will prosper financially and creatively, and maybe it won't. But the one thing you can be sure is that as long as they last, Shadowrun and BattleTech will feed the egos of the people who write it and the folks who (mis)manage the company.

Seen in that light, Jason Hardy's continued employment in his current position is not strange in the least.

Accepting (for now) your hypothesis what I don't get is how he was inducted into the old boy's club.

The Freelancer Crack comment is a simple matter of Jason not understanding when to use his inside voice. He's using some dumpshock slang on a company press release, where it will be read by people who don't know what the fuck he is talking about and will just be moderately offended. But you'd get the same result putting Gaming Den slang on a press release too. Can you imagine if you just put "suck a barrel of cocks" in the middle of a paragraph?

But as Ancient History points out, that's not even the problem. The problem is that he is talking about war and what makes it interesting and immersive, and never once does he mention shit like disagreements or concessions. You know, the reason wars actually begin and end. The back stories of people who happen to be in war torn areas can be fascinating, but it actually has precisely fuck all to do with what wars are, how wars are fought, why wars happen, where wars take place, or when wars end. The book he is describing could be called Pizza! or House Painting! or absolutely fucking anything else because it doesn't have fuck all to do with war.

That and he seems to admire Forest. Which either means he is evil or stupid or both.

-Username17

Forrest is kind of like Walter Model, a skilled commander in an evil cause who was personally committed to the cause. This doesn't change the fact that both were military geniuses and were among the best generals in their wars.

kzt wrote:Forrest is kind of like Walter Model, a skilled commander in an evil cause who was personally committed to the cause. This doesn't change the fact that both were military geniuses and were among the best generals in their wars.

But that's the point - they were personally committed to the cause. So were Goebbels and Himmler. We call them scum - why not Model? And by extension, Forrest? I believe a perceived lapse of moral judgement suggested by admiring Forrest is valid.

"Minister 'X' is kind of like Joseph Goebbels, a skilled propagandist in an evil cause who was personally committed to the cause. This doesn't change the fact that both were communications geniuses and were among the best manipulators of public opinion in their wars."

Being the best doesn't relieve you of the burden of acting like a man ought to...

Cent13