Annoying Game Questions You Want Answered

tussock · Post by **tussock** » Tue Mar 10, 2015 8:00 am

GURPS 4th will totally do old tanks and WWI shit. TL 6, the game is full of it, more in High-Tech. The great advantage of the system is if you want to drop in some time travel or elder things or zombies or mysticism or whatever the fuck, it just has everything.

But it also works fine for gritty bolt-action 303's, Maxim guns, and those terrible WWI grenades, tanks, and aircraft, and also your makeshift trenching-tool weapons and barb-wire knuckle-dusters. Like, you'll want to care a good deal about your exact range and cover and how far you can get in one second with or without a run-up to eliminate enemy aim bonus and stuff, so you'll want to have a few detailed maps for raiding the enemy trenches at night. Hope one of the characters can read the right language and didn't spend all their points on guns, move, and dodge.

The core books are pretty huge though, just in case Star Trek arrives and tries to stop your war, but then the Darleks invade, causing a Vampire apocalypse and intervention by the Fantastic Four, you know, like GURPS games tend to go.

angelfromanotherpin · Post by **angelfromanotherpin** » Sat Mar 14, 2015 3:20 pm

I thought that the whole deal with Pathfinder goblins was that they were #yolo fishmalks. Why is the PF Goblin comic about grim badass goblins who are nothing like the established fluff?

Meikle641 · Post by **Meikle641** » Sun Mar 15, 2015 4:12 am

So, how does this work... Lovecraft gods and such can be used in game and books, but anything branded Call of Cthulhu is copyright to Chaosium? I seem to recall hearing it explained on the Den once.

angelfromanotherpin · Post by **angelfromanotherpin** » Sun Mar 15, 2015 4:44 am

FrankTrollman wrote:Steve Jackson Games got permission from Chaosium to use their intellectual property, and the credits page gives you a window into how little there actually is of that. This book needed permission to use the Call of Cthulhu trademarked name in a roleplaying game context (as opposed to using the term “Call of Cthulhu” in a movie, TV show, novel, or any other context, which you don't need their permission for because they don't own the term), and to reprint a specific drawing of August Derleth's design of an Elder Sign that Chaosium happens to own. Not the design, just that specific drawing of that design.

It's pretty trivially easy to write a Cthulhu-based RPG without using any IP that Chaosium actually owns. Most of Chaosium's material is actually just “fair use” or public domain references to the works of authors who are explicitly allowing their works to be shared and in many cases also long dead. If you wanted to publish Call of Cthulhu your own damn self you could copy the game almost word for word so long as you gave it the title of a different HPL story and used a different font. CthulhuTech showed how easy that is a few years back. But US Steve Jackson liked licensing other peoples' stuff whenever possible, and so he was willing to cut a deal with Chaosium to license their ownership of... two logos.

Meikle641 · Post by **Meikle641** » Sun Mar 15, 2015 4:49 am

That's the one. Thanks.

ishy · Post by **ishy** » Mon Mar 16, 2015 2:59 pm

angelfromanotherpin wrote:I thought that the whole deal with Pathfinder goblins was that they were #yolo fishmalks. Why is the PF Goblin comic about grim badass goblins who are nothing like the established fluff?

Because the pathfinder fluff is not entertaining to read. Thus you don't truly associate goblins with their racial description.
Instead you'll get inspired by the art, like say, these guys:

vagrant · Post by **vagrant** » Mon Mar 16, 2015 6:11 pm

So I'm gonna be playing in a Tome game and wanna run a shadow genasi shadowcaster. Which variant should I use? I don't mind using IGTN's version from Book of Elements, but it seems...incomplete. Does anyone have a functioning shadowcaster or can explain how the fuck that one works? (What the hell is a recharge? Can I learn mysteries out of order in a path, and at what level do I get higher level mysteries? His write-up is shit and has far too many fucking undefined terms.)

Orion · Post by **Orion** » Mon Mar 16, 2015 6:21 pm

If a mystery can be recharged, it can be used once, and then used again provided that in between the uses the shadowcaster spends at least one consecutive minute not using any mysteries.

If you don't cast any mysteries for 10 rounds, all of your rechargeable mysteries reset. Basically, "rcharge" mysteries are encounter powers.

vagrant · Post by **vagrant** » Mon Mar 16, 2015 6:27 pm

Edit: Nevermind.

Would you recommend using Kaelik's Shadowcaster instead? IGTN's seems a bit lackluster in comparison.

koz · Post by **koz** » Mon Mar 16, 2015 6:46 pm

I'm just going to leave this here.

radthemad4 · Post by **radthemad4** » Fri Mar 20, 2015 11:24 pm

How did Wizardry originally get invented in D&D land? Possible methods and your own guesses would also be appreciated. I'm thinking careful examination of a sorcerer could potentially have been involved.

angelfromanotherpin · Fri Mar 20, 2015 11:36 pm

Eddie Wizzard was an avant-garde singer/dancer. One night, a very particular combination of limb-flailing and scatting produced a Ray of Frost, and that was the beginning of wizardry.

Meikle641 · Post by **Meikle641** » Fri Mar 20, 2015 11:40 pm

I figure it was the synthesis of natural philosophy and mysticism. Probably sorcery and divine magic would be the earliest casters around. These people know there's at least two kinds of magic, and sorcery is clearly a thing that many species can use, so they worked on backwards engineering magic from the world at large and creatures with SLAs and sorcery.

Or something.

radthemad4 · Post by **radthemad4** » Fri Mar 20, 2015 11:49 pm

angelfromanotherpin wrote:Eddie Wizzard was an avant-garde singer/dancer. One night, a very particular combination of limb-flailing and scatting produced a Ray of Frost, and that was the beginning of wizardry.

A 15 minute long combination? Well... it's not impossible I guess. I kinda like the idea of all spells originally being rituals before someone figures out preparation.

Meikle641 wrote:I figure it was the synthesis of natural philosophy and mysticism. Probably sorcery and divine magic would be the earliest casters around. These people know there's at least two kinds of magic, and sorcery is clearly a thing that many species can use, so they worked on backwards engineering magic from the world at large and creatures with SLAs and sorcery.

Or something.

Yeah, that makes sense.

vagrant · Post by **vagrant** » Sat Mar 21, 2015 7:54 am

Like everything else in DnD, a dragon did it. Or a time-traveling wizard. Or a demon with wizard levels. But probably a god of magic, like Vecna or Boccob or whatever.

I would assume one of the gods of magic just taught someone, whether through an outsider or divinations.

deaddmwalking · Post by **deaddmwalking** » Sat Mar 21, 2015 12:15 pm

Magic is a 'natural law' like electromagnetism. As an invisible force, it is difficult but not impossible to study. Areas with a natural magical effect were the first area of study. Druidism was probably developed first, followed by other divine magic. Rigorous study (particularly in areas 'forbidden' by established religion led to arcane magic. The rise of arcane magic would largely parallel modern medicine - probably including the use of cadavers for experimentation.

OgreBattle · Post by **OgreBattle** » Sat Mar 21, 2015 12:33 pm

So are illusions in Shadowrun well written enough rules wise that one group of players at one table will likely be playing the same game as another group? If they are, what's stopping similar rules from being ported over to D&D, where illusion rules are vague enough to vary wildly from table to table.

Whipstitch · Post by **Whipstitch** » Sat Mar 21, 2015 6:14 pm

The biggest problem is group buy-in. The D&D illusion rules are a mess in part because illusions are potentially extremely powerful. The writers never found a good kludge for determining appropriate things for low level and high level illusions to be doing, which results in all sorts of ad hoc rulings just to prevent Silent Image from being shit-right-on-your-face powerful. By contrast, Shadowrun Illusion magic is just straight up unambiguously powerful, and lots of people aren't going to stand for that shit.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Sat Mar 21, 2015 6:45 pm

Whipstitch wrote:The biggest problem is group buy-in. The D&D illusion rules are a mess in part because illusions are potentially extremely powerful. The writers never found a good kludge for determining appropriate things for low level and high level illusions to be doing, which results in all sorts of ad hoc rulings just to prevent Silent Image from being shit-right-on-your-face powerful. By contrast, Shadowrun Illusion magic is just straight up unambiguously powerful, and lots of people aren't going to stand for that shit.

Basically this. Shadowrun Illusions are balanced against spending the same initiative count letting loose two bursts from an assault rifle or throwing a grenade. A combat action in Shadowrun is a big fucking deal and the weapons people use are expected to drop fools.

The fact that Trid Phantasm simply unambiguously lets you control the vertical and the horizontal in a huge area and completely fool people who see and hear the contents makes it extremely powerful. But no one fucking cares, because players are also empowered to like blow up the buildings they are in and stuff.

As long as people expect burning hands to do "bullshit damage," they are never going to be OK with silent image doing the thing it obviously has to do in order to work at all.

-Username17

OgreBattle · Post by **OgreBattle** » Sat Mar 21, 2015 6:59 pm

How's After Sundown take on illusions measure up, is it basically the same as shadowrun's trid phantasm? Some instances of illusion rules being...

The Threshold to hit something that is Adjacent to you is zero. Seriously, it's right next to you. However, if the target is a resisting creature that is aware of the impending attack, the threshold is increased to half the target's Agility + Combat (if any). Yes, against skilled opposition it is much easier to shoot an opponent from 3 meters away where they can't interfere with the shot than it is to shoot them from within arm's reach where they can.

The Threshold can be further modified by circumstances. If the target has cover or its location is suspect (as in the case of illusions or intervening shower curtains), the threshold is increased by 1 or 2. If you're operating beyond the accurate range of your weapon...

---

Mask of a Thousand Faces While active, those who meet the character will treat them as if they were a different person. The character may choose the appearance (including clothing and carried items) freely, but taking any action that would be impossible for the facade allows onlookers to see through the illusion. For example, if a character uses the Mask to appear as a person who had no gun and then fires their gun, people would see them as they really are. Activating Mask of a Thousand Faces is a Simple Action and requires an Agility + Stealth or Charisma + Larceny test. Mask of a Thousand Faces can be disrupted as if it were a Sorcery with a power source identical to the character using it.
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The Smoking Mirror The character controls the vertical and the horizontal. The character spends a Complex Action and three power points so they can determine what is seen and heard for the rest of the scene. The area covered is limited to Line of Sight, and extends out to 30 meters per point of Potency. The character makes a Stealth + Intuition or Logic + Operations check and observers can only see through the illusion if they get an equal number of hits on an Intuition + Perception test.

These illusion rules feel pretty straight forward, seems like you just get one chance to see through the illusion for the scene.

Phantasmagoria (Discernment and Authority) - “You're eating maggots Michael, how do they taste?”

By spending two power points and a Complex Action, the character can make a magical illusion that fools recording devices and the senses of creatures. The character can control the vertical, the horizontal, and the audio within the area. The illusion extends to a column with a 3m radius and height per point of Potency, and it can be moved at any speed out to an area in line of sight by spending a Simple Action per round. The Illusion's contents can be changed to apparently react to events reactively so long as the character can see their own illusion and cares. The realistic nature (or not) of the illusion is determined by an Intuition + Artisan or Charisma + Expression test. Characters can spot the weirdness with an appropriate skill (usually Intuition + Empathy or Intuition + Perception). The Illusion normally ends at the end of the scene, but for another power point, the character can leave an Illusion standing until the next sunrise, but binding an Illusion like this makes it unable to be moved (though it can still react to apparent stimuli so long as it remains in its defined area).

This one also sounds like you just make your check the moment you interact with it and if you fail you don't notice. Though the threshold example still makes it sound like even if you know it's an illusion it can still be visually obscuring and affect your accuracy threshold.

Ice9 · Post by **Ice9** » Sat Mar 21, 2015 8:00 pm

I think you could do it, but you'd need to change the entire primary line of illusion spells so they scaled by a metric that was relevant, not by how many senses they get.

So: Major Image - it works even close up and lets you do whatever. Like trid-phantasm, it's quite powerful. And is set at an appropriate level for that kind of power.

Then for the lower level ones, you have illusions that are more limited than that. Because, for example:
* Only works from at least X distance away (mirage style).
* Just suggests objects/creatures in a vague way, you can't be precise with it.
* Fools people for a moment, but after a few rounds they automatically see through it.

icyshadowlord · Post by **icyshadowlord** » Sat Mar 21, 2015 8:33 pm

How good / bad is Call of Cthulhu, and is it worth playing with a somewhat competent DM ?

angelfromanotherpin · Post by **angelfromanotherpin** » Sat Mar 21, 2015 8:37 pm

icyshadowlord wrote:How good / bad is Call of Cthulhu, and is it worth playing with a somewhat competent DM ?

Reviewed.

Korwin · Post by **Korwin** » Mon Mar 23, 2015 6:15 am

icyshadowlord wrote:How good / bad is Call of Cthulhu, and is it worth playing with a somewhat competent DM ?

CoC is bad.
With an competent DM? You might be playing another game, because CoC is bad.

Blade · Post by **Blade** » Mon Mar 23, 2015 10:22 am

Illusions in Shadowrun are fine until you consider touch illusions. When you touch an illusory wall, you get the impression of touching something. When you lean on an illusory wall, you... get the impression of falling through a wall? Or maybe your mind is so intent on thinking there's a wall there that your body will stay against the illusory wall?
I guess you can find a way to explain it, but this lacks explanation so it might vary from one group to another.

Then there's the difference between "realistic" and "unrealistic" illusions. Once again, it's fine for visual illusions. You can easily imagine the difference between the two, but it's harder for sound, smell, taste or touch illusions. Some GM consider that it's just that the target somehow knows it's an illusion, but even then it's still not clear what this implies.

For CoC, it's more about the atmosphere than anything else, so if the DM is good and you like that kind of game, the rules don't really matter and shouldn't detract anything from the game.