Cheese Updates, 3.5

[Sma]

Request:
Combine OA Iajitsu Master first round cutting upness with any (near) full caster (arcane preferred) progression. Alternative would be a near full caster with some sort of charge scheme that does not require a mount or lance.

I dont need a detailed build some pointer will suffice

Thanks ahead,

Sma

[Username17]

Combine OA Iajitsu Master first round cutting upness with any (near) full caster (arcane preferred) progression. Alternative would be a near full caster with some sort of charge scheme that does not require a mount or lance.

That's a tall order. Iajitsu Master requires 5 levels of investment before it does anything passably cool (namely, to add your charisma bonus to damage nine times on the first round of combat), and 10 levels of investment to do anything that's remotely broken (gain an extra two attacks out-of-phase at the beginning of combat when everyone is still flat footed).

But taking all those levels means that it is hard to be a "caster" in any relevent fashion.

---

Hard. But not impossible. Consider the Artificer. The only thing he needs his spellcaster level for is qualifying for item creation. So once you get to level 8 in Artificer, you can jolly well just take Practiced Spellcaster and still get Staff creation on time - which is of course the only thing you actually need to maximize your skills. And by maximizing them, I of course mean getting unlimited bonuses to all of them.

And when you have an unlimited Iajitsu Focus check, you win D&D at level 13.

Not a great build, but certainly servicable. You would also get to have a steam punk mechanical katana. Like one of the heroes of Samurai 7.

-Username17

[The_Hanged_Man]

Interesting. Only problem is that the Artificer needs those free crafting XP to keep pumping out lewt. Didn't you have some way of keeping XP, or regaining it, or something?

[Username17]

1104787385[/unixtime]]Interesting. Only problem is that the Artificer needs those free crafting XP to keep pumping out lewt. Didn't you have some way of keeping XP, or regaining it, or something?

Sure. Since Artificer is still your highest level, you can lose a level and then restore it and it comes off yoru Artificer levels and goes back onto your artificer levels - this resets your Craft bubble.

-Username17

[MrWaeseL]

Don't you need that epic Iajitsu Focus feat from the site to get infinite Iajitsu Focus? I thought it normally capped at +9d6.

[Sma]

The Waesel´s right no more than 9d6 before epic, still thanks Frank I knew it was a tall order, but thats why I came here, needing to take levels of caster while not taking them presented me with some difficulties. Never thought of the artificer. Good catch, and being artificer even allows you to exploit all the other infinite power loops.
While not exactly what I was looking for It´ll have to do.

Sma

[Essence]

I'm sure there's some way to cheese your way into Nar Demonbinder or one of those other classes that can get you 7th or 8th level spells, and still leave you time for 5 levels of Iaijutsu Master. I don't have any books that have any of those 'catch-up' classes in them, thugh, so I can't help on that front. I'm sure someone will come up with a bizarre Samurai/Shiba Protector/Ur-Priest/Iaijutsu Master or something.

I'd also check into the "I win, biatch" thread, and see if the mixmaster PrC in there can help you get what you need.

[Sma]

Sadly the Chameleon wont help in this case. The Iajitsu stuff is not Feat based and isn´t on the list of class features the chameleon can mimic. Closest I got was using the Illithid Savant and eating some people who could do what I wanted. But even that gets his power so late to not even matter, and requires you to play a Mindflayer who gets hit with LA.

Sma

[Username17]

Don't you need that epic Iajitsu Focus feat from the site to get infinite Iajitsu Focus? I thought it normally capped at +9d6.

Yep. That's why you are "only" adding your Charisma bonus 9 times.

Closest I got was using the Illithid Savant and eating some people who could do what I wanted. But even that gets his power so late to not even matter, and requires you to play a Mindflayer who gets hit with LA.

Well... not exactly. You can still PAO into a Mind Flayer and qualify for that class. You still need to eat brains of high CR stuff to get in, so it will be a while before you can get in, even with cheese on top.

I'd also check into the "I win, biatch" thread, and see if the mixmaster PrC in there can help you get what you need.

Yes and no. The Chameleon can allow her bonus feat to switch around to meet qualifications for PrCs. Unfortunately, none of her other abilities can. So if you want to be a Chameleon who gets another spellcasting PrC, you need to take a bunch of levels of some other spellcasting class before hand.

So as a Cleric 5/Chameleon 10 you can take Divine Oracle and put the bonus caster levels into Chameleon (where they each count as two caster levels). And then as soon as you hit Epic you can turn your bonus feats into extra spell levels of Chameleon (getting 7th, 8th, and 9th level spells from any list). Of course, using Curse of Lycanthropy and "Human Heritage" - you can become an Epic Character around level 14.

Remember:

Regardless of the method used to attain 21st level, once a character reaches that point he or she is considered an epic character.

So even if your method is "layering templates onto yourself that grant you temporary levels that last until dispelled" - you are still considered an Epic character forever more. And that means that you can take Epic Feats as the bonus feats out of those. Which means that you want: Improved Spell Capacity.

Problem: Your chameleon spellcasting doesn't count for that. Solution: You don't need to qualify with your chameleon levels! Enter: Imbue Familiar with Spell Ability and Spell Reaver.

First: you cast IFwSA to give your Familiar a 4th level Assassin spell. Then you use a Ring of Spell Storing to Spell Reave the IFwSA onto yourself - granting you an Assassin spell of the normal maximum level that doesn't come from your Chameleon ability (directly). Now you qualify for Improved Spell Capacity, and once you have that, you have a 7th level slot from a feat, so you keep qualifying for it indefinately.

-Username17

[Sma]

Well... not exactly. You can still PAO into a Mind Flayer and qualify for that class. You still need to eat brains of high CR stuff to get in, so it will be a while before you can get in, even with cheese on top.

Thats true, but the need to eat CR 15+ people at lower levels sort of makes it hard to do

Then onto the alternative which would be a charging or spring attacking caster. Basically anythings fair as long as he does massive damage on a single strike, without being mounted.
I keep looking for something like spirited charge for on foot people, but the only thing I can find is shock trooper.

Sma

[User3]

I am aware that what I am asking for is complete crap and sucks conceptual-wise, but I sort of want to play it.

Ahem. Utilizing items, PrCs, feats, and spells to the best of my ability, is there any way I can go about creating a decent Wizard/Monk?

[Sma]

What part of Wizardry and what part of monkness are you especially attached to. As in Unarmed fighter that casts a few spells or Wizard that handles himself halfway decent in unarmed combat ? Another big point will be how high your dislike for polymorphery is.

[MrWaeseL]

You could just walk on the beaten path of wizard cheese, but that doesn't make your very monkish.

[Sma]

The easiest way would br using the Master of the East Wind from Dragon 314. It fully advances spellcasting and Monk abilites. You need Ki Strike (Magic) and 3rd level spells though.
If you´re not above qualifying with a Monks Belt, you might even end up semi decent for a monk, but thats just me and my conviction that less monk more good ;P

Monk 1/Wizard 5/Master of the East Wind 10.

Feats: Kung Fu Genius (lets you use Int instead of Wis for your Monk abilities), BAB 9, Fort: 6, Ref: 6, Will:13
Caster Level of 15, meaning 8th level spells (barely), fights as a 11th level Monk, meaning greater flurry)
you´ll probably want to invest in some spellstoring gauntlets to deliver touch spells, while you whiff at your opponents. Your saves are also going to need some work.
You probably should finish off with one of the Cleric PrC´s to get some abilities while keeping full spellcasting. And probably a cleric cohort for Divine Might in a Ring of Spellstoring.

Greetings,
Sma

[MrWaeseL]

The "Dragon Below" domain has lesser planar ally as a level 4 spell.

Also, can epic spells have negative DC's? I couldn't find anything about that in the ELH.

[Sma]

The "Dragon Below" domain has lesser planar ally as a level 4 spell.

The Cleric has Lesser planar ally as level 4 spell too, so no need to go a hunting

Sma

[User3]

For some reason I thought it was level 6 normally...

[Username17]

So you want to cast all arcane and divine spells at over caster level 20 spontaneously before Epic? No problem.

The key here is level trade-out. You start life as a 9th level Rogue, because that's an entirely reasonable thing to be. Then you decide to start becoming the mayor of crazy town. So you become an Ur Priest. And you become a Beholder Mage.

Then you start losing levels big time and regaining them - as Ur Priest, Beholder Mage, Geomancer, and you end up as a 10th level character who is:

Rogue 2/ Beholder Mage 1/ Ur Priest 2/ Geomancer 2/ Mystic Theurge 3.

The next 10 levels are going to be 8 Geomancer levels and 2 Mystic Theurge levels. You'll split your Geomancer levels evenly between Ur Priest and Beholder Mage, and likewise with the Geomancer levels.

So you have 12 effective levels of Beholder Mage (which makes your caster level 24), and 12 effective levels of Ur Priest (which means that your caster level is 24). And you have a spell book and can cast any spell you know spontaneously. And you have the whole progression of both classes - so it's 9th level spells.

And finally, if you managed to get any spell stalks implanted, you can spell stalk any of your arcane or divine spells out ot 9th level out of any of them every turn.

-Username17

[fbmf]

I haven't had a chance to read this, but I hear tell that it is the cheesiest of all cheese.

Enjoy!

Game On,
fbmf

[Josh_Kablack]

It's not.

It's someone who found a new Psionic path to unlimited Shapeshifting and gains a number of infinite loops off of it.

It's respecable sure, and the Sarruhk's Manipulate Form ability seems to open up whole new vistas of cheese, but overall the character honestly is not anything worse than using Shapechange for Shambling Mound Immunity, Black Pudding Split, and Barghast Feed to get an infinite number of infinite hit dice clones with infinite Con.

[Essence]

Barghast Feed can only net you a total of 18 HD now. Not that an infinite number of clones with 35 or so HD and infinite Con is a problem or anything...

[Murtak]

Manipulate Form is just even more abusive than polymorph and Shapechange. All that thread is about is how many abilities you can gain at what level (and how many actions it takes).

Last I checked they were down to level 5 (possibly level 3) and two rounds to infinite actions, infinite stats, infinite levels, infinite divine ranks and all Ex, Sp and Su abilities ever printed. And just on the side it includes by definition every infinite loop ever discovered. So I guess it is really not anything new, put it is well-done, not to mention quite entertaining.

[Josh_Kablack]

1128204967[/unixtime]]Barghast Feed can only net you a total of 18 HD now.

Did I miss an errata ?


And while lvl 3 is impressive for an infinite loop, really, Divine Rank 1 is all you need. Alter Reality lets you cast every spell and gets you infinite actions every round all by itself.

[Kirin_Corrigan]

Barghast Feed can only net you a total of 18 HD now.

Did I miss an errata ?

No, you just missed the Barghest entry. Barghests can Feed up to 9 HD, after that they become Greater Barghests. Greater Barghests can feed only up to 18 HD (MM 3.5, page 23).

And while lvl 3 is impressive for an infinite loop, really, Divine Rank 1 is all you need. Alter Reality lets you cast every spell and gets you infinite actions every round all by itself.

[Josh_Kablack]

1. The 18 hit die limit of the Greater Barghast is not actually contained within the "Feed (Su)' ability text. Thus while we know that Shapechange grants Feed, we don't know for sure that it comes with the limit.

2. When a Barghast advances to 9 hit dice via Feed, it becomes a greater Barghast. When someone who has cast Shapechange gains a hit die they are in most cases going to be advancing to a number greater than 9. When a barghast advances from 17 to 18 hit dice, the text does not indicate that anything special happens.

3. Even if you interpret that as "advances to 9 or more hit dice", the change from Barghast to Greater Barghast still only occurs when Feed is used, and Feed contains no restrictions on future form changes. Seeing as our example has already cast Shapechange cast, it will take a free action next round to go from being a Greater Barghast to a regular Barghast again.