Being Good in D&D: this one's for you, K and Frank

[Digestor]

Yeah, much like how the Romans or Greeks would worship all of the gods but pick one to be their patron diety, it makes sense for a Cleric to respect and possibly pray to all gods, but serve only one.

I see no reason why a priest of Tempus wouldn't do a favor for the Red Knight or possibly even Torm or Tyr, just at the end of the day, s/he's gonna claim all of his/her "trophies" belong to Tempus.

[User3]

Polytheistic religion is really complicated, and as far as I can tell no culture ever practiced it in quite the same way. Also, don't get me started on how most polytheistic religions worshipped lots of things besides the primary deities, like their ancestors and local spirits. D&D's religion is more like a parody of polytheistic practice than anything else.

[Username17]

D&D is not polytheistic. D&D is the logical result of Monotheism if it was all true.

All of it. So there's a a god who demands that you eat flesh and drink blood in order to be saved - and you can be saved by that god by doing those things. There's a god who demands fecundity before all, and will allow you to get into a happy place just by knocking people up. And so on.

And these gods, they hate each other. And they send their followers to war all the time. And they only intercede on behalf of their prophets.

But unlike the real world, this is all true. And the gods have prophets running around all over the place all the time. And you can physically go to the place where the crazy blood drinking god whose symbol is a torture implement hands out rewards to his blood drinking faithful. It's literally and provably true.

So yeah, Polytheism doesn't look anything like that. But what's going on is not polytheistic as far as any of the Clerics and Outsiders are concerned. The commoners probably have some sort of polytheistic religion where they pray to Nerull to let them live and pray to Yondalla for good harvests and access to halfling women.

But the important people actually are running around saying crap like "There is no god but Pelor!" despite the fact that Hextor is seriously right over there.

-Username17

[Count Arioch the 28th]

1155694343[/unixtime]]
Check out the back of the goddamn book. Like half of the new monsters and more than 2/3rds of the demigods are fvcking furries. I don't know of any other book in the history of D&D that has this many fvcking furries.

In that case, the logical thing to do is to add more furries to the other D&D books to even things out.

What?

[User3]

I've got to say, it's going to be a shame to see both you and K banned from the WOTC boards, Frank. However, things seem so much different with the posting of the tomes - like the idiots have been thinned down, and there are more people who aren't totally retarded.

Uh, yeah. That's not true.

One day we will all realize that just because you can write a sentence with good grammar doesn't mean that you actually know anything beyond that.

There are people on the Races thread that want to throw out the baby with the bathwater because of one ability. And nothing pisses me off more than people declaring 'you've lost the argument! Because I said so. And the guy said something scathingly funny and dismissive! Well, not really, but I'm pretending I am in a haphazard attempt to bolster my conviction! Now shut up! UHRRRRR'

The posts are easier on the eyes than they used to be but that's not an indication of any intelligence. Or Koresh help me, deliberation.

[josephbt]

I've got to say, it's going to be a shame to see both you and K banned from the WOTC boards, Frank.

err, is Frank allready banned?

[erik]

Yes.

[Crissa]

Frank was banned for being... Uh, 'too frank', and basically having too many people flaming him.

-Crissa

[Lago_AM3P]

Back on topic...


FrankTrollman, in Dungeonomicon and Fiends, you mentioned several rules and suggestions to keep the world of Dungeons and Dragons at an equilibrium. That no matter what you do or how hard you fight, twenty years from now there will be as much murder and much suffering as there was today.

I know a significant number of people (especially those that play anime-based RPGS) don't actually like the idea of their hero fading into oblivion and things eventually getting as bad as they used to be. For them, they want their PCs to be the end-all-be-all. Like the endings of Lion King or Xenogears, the new world has unlimited promise and while it may degrade into the horror it used to be, for now, there's world peace and universal brotherhood for man.

Obviously, to do this will require the players to challenge the basic tenets of D&D. Such as the economic system, the system of power and inheritence, and the entire political structure of the world. If they push hard enough, they'll eventually have to take the fight to other planes, journey into the deepest pits of Hell and win, and then even take on gods. Maybe even kill them.

Do you plan to have any support for this in Tome of Virtue? Or maybe have some sort of bonus book Tome of Humanity?

[User3]

Do you plan to have any support for this in Tome of Virtue? Or maybe have some sort of bonus book Tome of Humanity?

Mod Edit: Got you covered, Frank - fbmf

Fvcking Deutschisch Keyboards! I'm writing from an internet cafe in the BRD, and I can't find a square bracket. It's annoying.

Anyways, D&D is predicated on the idea that high level characters will retire and that future generations will continue adventuring in the same campaign world - in short that there is essentially a bottomless resevoire of villainy to fight against.

But you're correct, lots of people don't want to do that. They want to have a finite campaign in a story that has a beginning, middle, and end. And that's fine. It makes a very cool story actually, and a cooperative storytelling game is about telling cool stories.

Yeah, we'll have a tirade about permanent change in the Tome of Virtue. That's also where we talk about how being "exalted" towards an alignment actually makes you less helpful towards the goals of that alignment than being "reasonable". That in short, the people who won't negotiate with terrorists cannot have meaningful accomplishments in the big picture. That's where we really talk about why it is that Angels are in the monster manual.

But hey! �mlauts! �h yea�h!

-Username17

[Crissa]

Aww. I lürve me ümláûts.

-Crissa

[Lago_AM3P]

So, Frank, any idea for classes? I think I have a few.

Ur Priest- Natch. Only they steal their power from all deities and use it for the pursuit of goodness.
Cleric of All Creation- Priest dedicated towards bringing the glory of creation to all creations. Does really weird things like being able to grant intelligence and the ability to be good to practically anything (constructs, trees, zombies, even demons), creates huge amounts of clothing, shelter, and food, can raise long-gone people from the dead and reverse the effects of aging and permanent evil curses (like being turned into a wight).
Monk of Light- Monks that cleanse taint and evilness around the world and have even learned to tap into it to increase their abilities.
Darkstalker- Rogue that shows that negative energy isn't a purely evil force durka durka dur

I dunno.

Frank, every day that I wait for a teaser from the Tome of Virtue that doesn't come is a day I come closer to exploding. GIVE DADDY LAGO WHAT HE NEEDS BABY.

need it so bad u have no idea

[Lago_AM3P]

Any progress on this Tome?

[Koumei]

1155745433[/unixtime]]
But the important people actually are running around saying crap like "There is no god but Pelor!" despite the fact that Hextor is seriously right over there.

That is awesome. Also sounds like the Discworld, which actually intended on showing how silly the concept is, whereas D&D seems to think that it, like a lot of other crazy things, could work and make perfect sense.

Which also makes me wonder if the gods sit around tables in their respective planes, playing board games or, let's face it, D&D, using their Clerics as playing pieces.
...
...
It's another "The players are the gods!" thing, isn't it?

And it makes complete sense that gods play as clerics. I mean, they're one of the best classes by far.

Anyway, I look forward to seeing the flamewars that emerge.

[Manxome]

I must admit to being largely ignorant of the theology of the D&D world, but...is it actually necessary to make sweeping claims about real-life morality and religion in order to write a Tome of Virtue? I mean, I certainly understand the desire to motivate your interpretation, and you can write in support of whatever position you like, and it's certainly an interesting topic, but...has it actually gotten to the point where you need to embrace highly specific philosophical and religious doctrines in order to play a game that's fundamentally about fighting magical creatures and stabbing people in the face? That just seems a little extreme.

You know, like the ocean is a little wet.

[Koumei]

Unfortunately, it just about has become necessary. On the grounds that so many people, when they picture Good in D&D, think "Well, I'm a Christian, and Christianity is Good, because the God of Christianity says so, and because he's Good he decides what is Good, and so my circular logic is Good... and so being a Cleric is obviously Good, Divine magic is inherently Good, and if the Bible says I can do it, clearly it's Good."

I'm sure there are handfuls of people from other religions who apply the same thing, but I (fortunately) haven't encountered any. The closest would be Wiccans who get a little pissy whenever anything from witchcraft is bastardised into D&D (ie all the time).

But because so many people confuse their real-world religion with D&D religion, and in turn with D&D alignments, it does sort of become necessary to tell them they're wrong.

[CalibronXXX]

Wait. What? A lot of Christian D&D players seriously try to directly incorporate their real world faith into their D&D games?

This is the kind of reason I can't make friends with the guys at church.

[Lago_AM3P]

Further, you have to sleep. Also you have to relax sometimes. If you run yourself ragged all the time, then you won't be any good when we really need you. The ambulance doesn't just drive around, it sits in one place until it is called upon and then drives to where it is needed. So doing the best you can still involves you personally taking some time off to go surfing and hiking and talking with your friends and drinking some fair trade coffee and looking at pretty girls. Really, in order to do the most good, you'll still have to do some of that other stuff.

This is sort of changing the subject, but does anyone know of any series where the hero is a real burn the candle at both ends type where ANY free time is spent trying to fix cottages and teach children to read and feed kittens?

But not to highlight how good and pure this person is, it's just that this person is so extremely persistent in the pursuit of good that they just feel too guilty doing anything else? Yes, sometimes people need to kick back with a b33r and a good book but how many hours of your life can you spend reading a book rather than protesting the plight of starving half-orcs in the wastelands before you fall off of the 'good' wagon?

The closest I've ever seen was, surprise surprise, Robin in Teen Titans. He's so obsessed with his job and making the city safe that he burns himself out, goes a little crazy, and even alienates his friends. The Haunted episode. One of the best I've ever seen, in no small part because it highlights the toil the relentless pursuit of good can do to someone.

[MrWaeseL]

1187953408[/unixtime]]Wait. What? A lot of Christian D&D players seriously try to directly incorporate their real world faith into their D&D games?

This is the kind of reason I can't make friends with the guys at church.

Let's not go there.

[Koumei]

I don't know it a lot do - I know plenty who can leave it at the door just fine. One of them is a priest and he can enjoy it without bringing his own world views in. But he did decline playing Demon once, simply because it'd remind him of work.

[CalibronXXX]

1187954597[/unixtime]]Let's not go there.

Sorry, it's just that I am a devout Christian, yet I'm constantly reminded about how much the Christian community tends to suck. This annoys me.

[tzor]

1187953408[/unixtime]]Wait. What? A lot of Christian D&D players seriously try to directly incorporate their real world faith into their D&D games?

Well I for one would never incorporate my real world "faith" into the game. My real world "morality" on the other hand does get incorporated to some extent. On the other hand I take great pains to separate good/evil from right/wrong. Not everything that is right is good, not eveything that is wrong is evil, because good and evil have specific definitions within D&D.

Actually I think there are a number of areas where my faith and the rules are in conflict ... and I simply don't care. I think, for example, the rules clearly support the idea of a "mortal" soul, one that can actually be destroyed or consumed or turned into a wall or whatever. That's at odd with my faith, but that's my faith about my own world, not about some fantasy one.

[CalibronXXX]

Yeah, D&D is a game and real life is not. The problem I have is that apparently enough of our fellow Christ followers don't seem to be able to separate the two, that it's developed into a stereotype; and that's crazy.

Edit: I should probably stop being off-topic now.

[Iaimeki]

The Book of Exalted Deeds is, unfortunately, the poster-child for the phenomenon of people injecting Christianity into D&D. Until WotC stops putting out books like that, it's going to be hard to avoid the topic of real-world religion, especially Christianity, when writing about good and evil in D&D.

[Koumei]

It's also, as mentioned before, the poster child for furries.