The Gaming Den

Wrap Up covers my final thoughts.

I like it. Magic system aside, the books is well written and flows better than most games I have recently read. Hell, better than most in my history and my personal library. Mechanically, it will play differently but should fit my needs very well. (Again, the magic chapter needs a detailed playtest.)

This is NOT everyone's cup of tea. Many will point out that DnD 3.x works fine for them. Others will mention 4th Ed. That's fine. Please enjoy them. But for your own sake, thumb through a copy to look at the truly great art.

For me, I like that this is a re-visioning of the fantasy game and it breaks new ground in places and puts a different spin on others. If it fails in places then at least the Crafty folks were trying.

Final verdict: A
Worth buying: Yes, if you are in the market for a new fantasy game.

Could you give some more information about what class features classes have?

Class features vary pretty wildly. The Soldier is really about as good a fighter as you can imagine, with tons of bonus combat feats and armor/weapon abilities that make him better at hitting things until they die. Assassins are good at being assassins, sneaking through crowds, impersonating, and of course, killing. Courtiers are diplomancers with lots of disposable cash and the ability to work behind the scenes.

Class formats have a few things in common. Each base and expert class has a core ability. You only get one from each, so what you pick at level 1 is going to stick with you for your entire career, and they are all decently powerful and scale well. For instance, Assassins get full BAB whenever they attack a special character. So even a 1 level dip into Assassin is going to be very nice for you.

Another commonality are the "gamebreakers" at level 14. Really powerful stuff that encourages you to stick with a class for a while. Assassins get the deadly "Finish Him!", which increases your threat range by four (!!!) for attack and skill check, and they can't cheat death. Soldiers can declare a dice roll to be a natural 20 once per session. Courtiers can, once per scene, automatically win an opposed skill check. ANY opposed skill check. Fun stuff.

As for magic...the spellcasting system IS very convoluted. Having each level of spells having a particular DC which you need reference in addition to your spell's DC and remaining spellpoint and everything else is just a hassle. I'm thinking of simply having spellcasting rank be the attack roll of a spell, with maximum ranks in it equal to your career level. Or something. The spells themselves are just fine. You still hurl fireballs, summon elementals, fly around, turn invisible, disintegrate, etc, etc.

A clarification: You can't gish to get all the core abilities.

FC, pg 29 wrote: You only ever gain the core ability of the first Base Class you enter - the core abilities of all other Base Classes are unavailable to you.

emphasis present in original

I'm getting the family ready for church so I'll post a longer answer to PR's question after we get home.

I was wondering something that wasn't clear in the book.

Are the Splinter Race feats free or do you need to use your level 1 feat to get them?

@ Taleran
Not specifically stated one way or the other; however, my read is that you would have to spend your starting feat on it. This seems consistent with the mechanical benefits that are derived from the feats. Not necessarily equal but consistent.

Psychic Robot wrote:Could you give some more information about what class features classes have?

Sure. As Apalala pointed out, the Soldier is a rather powerful melee (or ranged) combatant. His "game changer" at level 14: One in a Million which grants an automatic 20 (which counts as a threat) on an attack check, Fort save, strength or con based skill check.

However, my favorite ability is portable cover (level 10) where the fighters kicks, tips, spins or other wise creates his own cover. It is treated as 1/4 cover and extends to any ally withing 10 feet. At level 20, it increases to 1/2 cover and allies within 15 feet.

The Lancer's Core ability is Lifetime Companion which is an animal companion (like the druid in DnD) but the loss of said companion incurs no penalties and is automatically replaced.

The Burglar's game changing ability (level 14) grants him 400 reputation and 4 extra prizes but the rep must be spent immediately.

Those are a few class abilities. Hopefully, that provides a little flavor.

However, my favorite ability is portable cover (level 10) where the fighters kicks, tips, spins or other wise creates his own cover. It is treated as 1/4 cover and extends to any ally withing 10 feet. At level 20, it increases to 1/2 cover and allies within 15 feet.

So your favorite ability is a temporary +2 to AC at level 10?

You seriously are not selling the mathematical soundness of the product in your review. I understand that you like the art and shit, but please at least try to convince me that this holds together as a game. I can't play the art. The art can motivate me to read the book, and even motivate other players to read the book, but it seriously ends when we hit the table.

-Username17

Frank,

Truly, feel free to knock my review. I posted my thoughts and tried to include as much math as I could for the benefit of those on the forum. Despite a degree in engineering, I don't have the patience that many on the Den have to pick apart the math seven ways from Sunday. If you would like, be my guest and pick up your own copy and do a review where you vivisect the math.

ludomastro

FrankTrollman wrote:

However, my favorite ability is portable cover (level 10) where the fighters kicks, tips, spins or other wise creates his own cover. It is treated as 1/4 cover and extends to any ally withing 10 feet. At level 20, it increases to 1/2 cover and allies within 15 feet.

So your favorite ability is a temporary +2 to AC at level 10?

And immunity to Rogues.

Koumei wrote:

FrankTrollman wrote:

However, my favorite ability is portable cover (level 10) where the fighters kicks, tips, spins or other wise creates his own cover. It is treated as 1/4 cover and extends to any ally withing 10 feet. At level 20, it increases to 1/2 cover and allies within 15 feet.

So your favorite ability is a temporary +2 to AC at level 10?

And immunity to Rogues.

You're thinking of Concealment. The Cover bonus is seriously just an aura of +1 AC every 5 levels with a named and fairly otherwise available bonus type.

-Username17

Ah, that's right. Cover stops you from provoking, except of course that Fantasycraft doesn't use Opps of Attackatunity.

Yeah from what I'm seeing, FantasyCraft seems to have done a lot of things wrong.

Oh, it turns out that the cover ability is actually just always on, and you're considered to always be in cover, all the time. Useful if you fight in blank, featureless cubes all the time, or on open plains, but not so much anywhere else.

RandomCasualty2 wrote:Yeah from what I'm seeing, FantasyCraft seems to have done a lot of things wrong.

but really is there a game made that can say they haven't?

Taleran wrote: but really is there a game made that can say they haven't?

Nope. Mostly it's just a matter of how many editions/revisions a give game has gone through that determines how many mistakes you can make.
If the system as a whole is new and experimental, like 4E or Shadowrun's wireless matrix, we can generally live with some mistakes and oversights. However, this isn't really an experimental game, it's another 3E rehash, which pretty much like Pathfinder, is held up to a much higher standard, because it's not a new game, but rather a new spin on a game we already have. We really do expect those games to be much more well polished and flawless, because they've already had years to be played to death, and people should be aware of the math.

I mean seriously, using the skill system for attack rolls and spellcasting... ouch. As far as mistakes go, that's a particularly bad one.

Can the cover be used to enter stealth? Because that might be worth something.

shau wrote:Can the cover be used to enter stealth? Because that might be worth something.

I believe so.

To RC/Frank: Eh, the skill rolls are for specific maneuvers, not all attack rolls. And there seem to be a lot less ways to send a skill check into crazytown with FC. I agree though, having a more mathematically sound person go through the game to see if it stands up would be a good idea.

To me it holds up aesthetically and in theory but I have no idea how it works in practice; that, ultimately is the most important thing.

shau wrote:Can the cover be used to enter stealth? Because that might be worth something.

I had the opportunity to skim through the book, and cover seems to boost Defense and Reflex saves. For each 1/4 of cover, you get +2 to defense and +1 to Reflex. If you've got total cover, it's impossible to attack you directly from outside it. Because of this and the cover stacking rules, a level 20 fighter is impossible to attack directly if there are some trees between it and the attacker.

There was at least one feat which boosted the bonuses a "hidden" character got from cover.

Are you telling me that in Fantasy Craft, 50% cover and 50% cover add up to 100% cover? That´s stupid, but I´m unconvinced that it will matter much for a 20th level ability.

The big problem I see is that Fantasy Craft isn´t even bothering to try to sell itself as a functional game. It´s supposed to be a "tool kit" of a bunch of possible rules you could shove together to make your own game. But honestly, what is that even for?

If I don´t know what the target ACs for a creature in my level are going to be, how could I possibly evaluate the utility of an additional +1 to-hit? Are we supposed to be getting +3 enhancement bonuses to attack rolls or not? How about our Strength values? A +5 Inherent and a +6 enhancement are shifting those RNGs over 5 or 6 points.

If you haven´t presented a coherent whole, none of the individual bonuses or abilities mean anything.

And that is a huge problem. And every review of Fantasy Craft I have so far read (and I have now read several), has totally ignored this point. Once your monsters and magic items and spells and crap are all in flux, pinning down class features doesn´t make any difference or even sense.

-Username17

FrankTrollman wrote:If I don´t know what the target ACs for a creature in my level are going to be, how could I possibly evaluate the utility of an additional +1 to-hit? Are we supposed to be getting +3 enhancement bonuses to attack rolls or not? How about our Strength values? A +5 Inherent and a +6 enhancement are shifting those RNGs over 5 or 6 points.

If you haven´t presented a coherent whole, none of the individual bonuses or abilities mean anything.

And that is a huge problem. And every review of Fantasy Craft I have so far read (and I have now read several), has totally ignored this point. Once your monsters and magic items and spells and crap are all in flux, pinning down class features doesn´t make any difference or even sense.

-Username17

At level 10, your average monster will have a base attack bonus of 10. Caster types might swing for as low as 5, and the serious threats have a BAB of 17. Both can be modified by strength or dexterity, and the way I see it, you can pick the stats first, then pick the grade that would be modified to where you want it to be hitting at. For instance, if I wanted a highly accurate archer npc, I'd give it something like 20 dex, then give it a grade VI attack bonus, which comes out to 17. Or, if I was lazy, 10 dex and a grade X. Or if I was sadistic, 26 dex and grade X.

Dragons make a good a baseline as any. In 3.5, they were always put at a lower CR than their true worth, and they did so with big numbers, so they occupy at top tier in terms of base stats. Dragons in FC cost more than two hundred xp, so they're close to the top too. A fire dragon at threat level 10 has 22 strength and attack grade VI, which comes to BAB +11, which means he swings for 17, which just so happens to be the same as grade X with 10 strength.

Looking through the bestiary, most of the monsters presented tend to follow this trend, never going outside that 5-17 range. One obvious exception is the Tarasque, with attack X and 28 strength, but that's about to be expected.

FrankTrollman wrote: If I don´t know what the target ACs for a creature in my level are going to be, how could I possibly evaluate the utility of an additional +1 to-hit? Are we supposed to be getting +3 enhancement bonuses to attack rolls or not? How about our Strength values? A +5 Inherent and a +6 enhancement are shifting those RNGs over 5 or 6 points.

If you haven´t presented a coherent whole, none of the individual bonuses or abilities mean anything.

you know an easy way to solve that problem would be you know to play the system instead of dissecting the rules to high hell before giving it a go

Taleran wrote:
you know an easy way to solve that problem would be you know to play the system instead of dissecting the rules to high hell before giving it a go

You know what would be easier? Fucking your mother. Again.

I live in the god damned Czech Republic and it is fucking hard to get together a gaming group to play Settlers of Catan. I have at times been forced to play Star Wars Saga because the other choice was not role playing at all. Getting a new game system sent from The States and then getting a group of people to learn it and play it is not easy. It's a lot of work and a lot of time, and the end result had better be worth it.

And that's why I read a review. In fact, it's why I read several reviews. Trying to find out the basic information of whether the game works. And honestly, as far as I can tell from the many positive reviews I have read, the answer is "no." Which means that I am not going to have it shipped to Eastern Fucking Europe and then try to get 4 or 5 other expats to learn it.

Presenting the DM and players with a bunch of toggles to change the way the game works is only functional, or even meaningful, if you present a coherent, mathematical description of what those changes actually do to the events generated in the game. Otherwise you're not really providing anything except maybe some half baked, unformed ideas. And I can get that by reading any gaming message board at all. Including this one. No one has given the key piece of information that would tempt me to go to the great expense and difficulty of getting a game together of it - the assurance that somewhere in there was a functional core game and that the various adjustment knobs had predictable and explicated effects on that core. I have not gotten that assurance, quite the opposite.

-Username17

FrankTrollman wrote: And that's why I read a review. In fact, it's why I read several reviews. Trying to find out the basic information of whether the game works. And honestly, as far as I can tell from the many positive reviews I have read, the answer is "no."

Yeah, honestly FC seems almost like a fantasy only version of Rifts. Everyone seems to love the flavor and the fact that you can play a dragon, giant or ent at first level, but as far as mechanics go, I don't really see anything all that great.

Rifts let you play a dragon at first level too... doesn't mean it was anything close to being playable.

Bumping this thread to add my two cents. I'm glancing over the PDF, and the system is dense and asstacular.

D&D is rules-heavy enough as it is. Why the hell would I want to pile on more complexity to a game that is difficult enough to teach to newbies? And the entire math of the game is still retard broken. The system still uses the shitty 3e skill system, and what's more is that you can only spend skill points on your class skills, which means that your fighter is still going to be a piece of shit on stealth missions. BAB and saves are still borked, of course, and classes have to keep track of separate initiative, defense, lifestyle, and legend bonuses by class. Because what D&D really needed was a lifestyle stat.

Then there's the lame-ass class features. Let's see what the fighter gets, shall we? (I use the fighter class--dubbed "the soldier" in FC--because I feel that it mostly strongly demonstrates whether or not the designers know what they're doing when addressing balance issues.)

Fight On: At Levels 1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 11, 13, 15, 17, and 19, you gain 1 additional Basic, Melee, Ranged, or Unarmed Combat feat or 2 additional proficiencies.

Oh, boy. More feats.

Fortunes of War I: You stand fast in battle, especially when the pressure’s on. At Level 2, you gain Damage Reduction 1. During dramatic scenes, this DR increases to 2.

Dramatic scenes? What the shit? Why are there special metagame circumstances that make you awesomer just because?

Armor Use I: At Level 4, you gain a +1 bonus to Defense while wearing armor and receive a 20% discount when purchasing armor.

Eventually, this increases to ARMOR USER V and a +5 bonus and a 40% discount. So let me get this straight: the fighter fucks the RNG and magically gets a discount on gear. Good gravy.

Now, I have to spend a moment on a rantgent. The writers of FC suck at writing flavor text for abilities. While technically that's less important than mechanics, flavor is how you're going to get players interested in a class, and flavor is going to make people want to play a class. The FC writers, however, think that GENERIC ABILITY I advancing to GENERIC ABILITY II, GENERIC ABILITY III, and so on are appropriate.

Seriously? They couldn't think of up better names than "adding Roman numerals"? Even the spells work this way! What is this, Asheron's Call? (You may take a break from reading this to Google that if you so desire.) Keep the reader interested in the class or you're going to make me punch a baby.

Anyway. Back to fighters sucking.

Certainty: Your error range with proficient attacks decreases by 2 (minimum 0).

Error range? I have no idea what this ability does (though I don't much care).

Killer Instinct: You inflict 2 additional damage with proficient attacks.

+2 damage. Whooo.

Rugged Weapons: When you’re holding a weapon in which you’re proficient and it must make a Damage save, you may roll twice, keeping the result you prefer.

Items with damage saves? That's it, we're done here.

Now, if I haven't dissuaded you so far, let me warn you against the horrors of the monster system. TABLES. TABLES EVERYWHERE. As far as the eye can see, tables with numbers and more God-forsaken Roman numerals. NPCs are made of arbitrarium and a customizable do-it-yourself system that is a real pain in the ass. You're seriously looking at a more complicated version of the shitty 4e monster system, with values based off of "HOW GOOD DOES HE HIT I WONDER" and "GEE I THINK THIS ONE SHOULD BE TOUGH."

A selection of text:

Example: An owlbear is tough, hard-hitting, and durable, so the GM assigns Initiative III, Attack VII, Defense IV, and Resilience V (as an Animal, the owlbear can’t have a Competence score). This generates a total of 19 XP, bringing the owlbear’s value to 29.

Example: For no particular reason other than the GM’s fancy, Fortunado gets Initiative II, Attack V, Defense III, Resilience IV, and Competence V. Fortunado’s XP value also increases by 19, bringing his value to 46.

Fuck. This. Noise.