[D&D 3.5] The Unconventional Wisdom of the Den

Ancient History · Post by **Ancient History** » Sun Jul 24, 2011 3:05 am

I think that near the end there, the people at WotC had actually thrown enough darts at the wall that a careful clearcutting would have made a viable 4.0 that was based on 3.+, distinct from it and no longer quite so broken. For example, they were wising up to the fact that "dead levels" suck and needed to be addressed, people /like/ alternate class features which could be used to customize their characters more, multiclassing was not evil, familiars didn't have to suck, and some people really want six types of magic knight.

It's still crap past about 6th level, but hey: the tools were there.

Chamomile · Post by **Chamomile** » Sun Jul 24, 2011 4:11 am

Koumei wrote: C. you use the rule with a caveat of "If you start meeting the requirements again, you regain it" and create a paradox loop, destroying the world

Alternatively, you switch back and forth between having and not having the class every round.

Quantumboost · Post by **Quantumboost** » Sun Jul 24, 2011 5:02 am

Gx1080 wrote:Thought that the whole point of Ur-Priest was giving atheists a way to play Clerics.

This is dumb, since the core cleric explicitly can get their power from believing in "a cause", which could be atheism. Or yourself. Or the me who believes in you.

Which doesn't mean that wasn't the case, or that it wasn't to give people who want to punch dieties in the dicks the ability to be clerics.

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Sun Jul 24, 2011 5:11 am

Chamomile wrote: Alternatively, you switch back and forth between having and not having the class every round.

Like that strobe light ninja?

Quantumboost: as true as that is, WotC could easily forget it. They still assume all Clerics worship not only gods, but Good gods that apparently hold onto a bunch of weird Christian stuff.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Sun Jul 24, 2011 7:43 am

Sandbagging refers to hot air ballooning, it's a really old term. If you have sand bags, it holds your balloon down, but you can drop them at any time to rise up quickly. So sandbagging is a term for voluntarily holding yourself back in a way that you can stop when you want.

-Username17

Strung Nether · Post by **Strung Nether** » Sun Jul 24, 2011 10:48 pm

Sorry for being dense, but why is sand-bagging good in 3.5?

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Sun Jul 24, 2011 10:53 pm

In general sand-bagging is done so that a particular player doesn't get too far ahead of the power curve for their buddies. If you want to play a Taint Mage for instance you keep your DCs in the low twenties rather than the low fifties so that you can still play with the others and/or don't get your concept banned entirely.

It's considered a huge failure in game design if someone has to do this even accounting for differences in player experience and tactical skill.

CapnTthePirateG · Post by **CapnTthePirateG** » Sun Jul 24, 2011 10:56 pm

Because you can break stuff really easily, but there are so many overpowered/poorly thought out monsters you need to be ready for.

But if you don't hold back, you risk alienating the guy over there playing the fighter/getting nerfbatted/summoning WEAL WOLEPLAWAs whatever.

Gx1080 · Post by **Gx1080** » Sun Jul 24, 2011 11:30 pm

It maybe dumb, but it was a bone thrown to the "hurr Religion is EVIL" militant atheist fuckheads to make them shut up and play the damn game.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Sun Jul 24, 2011 11:53 pm

What Capn said. It's important to be able to whip out something stupid that can save the entire party from a Blasphemy at CL 18 at level 9. because your DM might just actually use that monster, but in the mean time, you want to be able to match your caster against whomever else is in the party, and not be able to obviously solo the entire game.

Gx1080 wrote:It maybe dumb, but it was a bone thrown to the "hurr Religion is EVIL" militant atheist fuckheads to make them shut up and play the damn game.

Do not want your stupid political opinion in a gaming thread. Please whine about things that are obviously false somewhere else. Spell Focus Evil.

Hieronymous Rex · Post by **Hieronymous Rex** » Mon Jul 25, 2011 4:35 am

Kaelik wrote:
Gx1080 wrote:It maybe dumb, but it was a bone thrown to the "hurr Religion is EVIL" militant atheist fuckheads to make them shut up and play the damn game.
Do not want your stupid political opinion in a gaming thread. Please whine about things that are obviously false somewhere else. Spell Focus Evil.

You are both the problem.

Gx1080 · Post by **Gx1080** » Mon Jul 25, 2011 4:57 am

"Obviously false".

Says you.

Count Arioch the 28th · Mon Jul 25, 2011 5:17 am

No one cares about your opinion, Gx1080. Go away.

Psychic Robot · Post by **Psychic Robot** » Mon Jul 25, 2011 6:13 am

gx1080 is a great trollposter, I encourage him to post more

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Mon Jul 25, 2011 7:31 am

Gx1080 wrote:It maybe dumb, but it was a bone thrown to the "hurr Religion is EVIL" militant atheist fuckheads to make them shut up and play the damn game.

That is exactly the opposite of reality. The Ur Priest steals divine power from gods in general, an despite the fact that half the gods in D&D are evil Ur Priests have to be evil. It's not a bone thrown to atheists who hate religion, it's a bone thrown to religious people who fear atheists.

The guy who "fights the gods" is mandatorily a villain. And if you try to analyze the situation without wrapping your mind around the fact that the Ur Priest is an offensive stereotype of atheists that explicitly endorses a view that godliness is goodliness, then you are not going to make any sense.

-Username17

Strung Nether · Post by **Strung Nether** » Mon Jul 25, 2011 8:01 am

Lago PARANOIA wrote:In general sand-bagging is done so that a particular player doesn't get too far ahead of the power curve for their buddies. If you want to play a Taint Mage for instance you keep your DCs in the low twenties rather than the low fifties so that you can still play with the others and/or don't get your concept banned entirely.

It's considered a huge failure in game design if someone has to do this even accounting for differences in player experience and tactical skill.

CapnTthePirateG wrote:Because you can break stuff really easily, but there are so many overpowered/poorly thought out monsters you need to be ready for.

But if you don't hold back, you risk alienating the guy over there playing the fighter/getting nerfbatted/summoning WEAL WOLEPLAWAs whatever.

That actually makes a lot of sense. There is no sense being more powerful than you have to for any given challenge, plus it lets the people who want to play Gimli and Legolas have fun too.

quanta · Post by **quanta** » Mon Jul 25, 2011 8:25 am

Whoa, whoa, whoa. Ur-Priests are clearly anti-atheist too since they steal power from what atheists worship http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&id=798.

RobbyPants · Post by **RobbyPants** » Mon Jul 25, 2011 12:55 pm

FrankTrollman wrote:Sandbagging refers to hot air ballooning, it's a really old term. If you have sand bags, it holds your balloon down, but you can drop them at any time to rise up quickly. So sandbagging is a term for voluntarily holding yourself back in a way that you can stop when you want.

That makes sense. I always wondered where the term came from.

Lago PARANOIA wrote:In general sand-bagging is done so that a particular player doesn't get too far ahead of the power curve for their buddies. If you want to play a Taint Mage for instance you keep your DCs in the low twenties rather than the low fifties so that you can still play with the others and/or don't get your concept banned entirely.

Well, I could see this in D&D (since that's the context of this thread), but every other time I've heard the term used, it's usually done in such a way that you play weak, and then pounce on the opposition when they're not ready. In a non-D&D setting, I hear this used either for check-raises in poker or my wife uses it to complain about figure skaters who refuse to test up to the next level so they can keep winning competitions.

Count Arioch the 28th · Mon Jul 25, 2011 1:20 pm

If the Ur-Priest only stole powers from good gods and good clerics I could see the justification for them being "always evil". Basically, the Ur-Priest was the prestige class for some group of evil-flavored humans who were always evil. Strip out the cultural notes, and it doesn't make sense anymore.

Gx1080 · Post by **Gx1080** » Mon Jul 25, 2011 4:43 pm

Well, dunno. I first saw Ur-Priests on Book of Vile Darkness, a supplement criticized for NOT including enough rules for rape, evil sex and sexual torture.

So yeah. Also, in D&D world, where Gods have a lot of influence, opposing them is evil, according to D&D morality that is basically whatever the gods say.

Did I mentioned that D&D morality is fucked up? And that most people don't care, because they want to play murdering amoral hobos, I mean, Neutral characters? And the DM LOVES it, because it allows him to pull out his penis and tell players to suck it?

Red_Rob · Post by **Red_Rob** » Mon Jul 25, 2011 6:55 pm

quanta wrote:Whoa, whoa, whoa. Ur-Priests are clearly anti-atheist too since they steal power from what atheists worship

They steal power from Richard Dawkins?

Ah, I see why they have the "always Evil" tag.

Midnight_v · Post by **Midnight_v** » Mon Jul 25, 2011 7:03 pm

Psychic Robot wrote:gx1080 is a great trollposter, I encourage him getting fucked up the ass. to post more

Ah fixed. Emphasis mine. Bent the thread with that ur-priest shite.

Here's something different.
Most of the other boards accept (and debate regularly) the tier system.
The Gaming Den?

Pissed on that system, and cast it from Valhalla, etc, etc...

Gx1080 · Post by **Gx1080** » Mon Jul 25, 2011 7:21 pm

@Midnight_v

Well, fuck you too.

Midnight_v · Post by **Midnight_v** » Mon Jul 25, 2011 7:23 pm

Gx1080 wrote:@Midnight_v

Well, fuck you too.

Nyahh, I was just fucking with ya. . .

CapnTthePirateG · Post by **CapnTthePirateG** » Mon Jul 25, 2011 10:05 pm

Midnight_v wrote:
Psychic Robot wrote:gx1080 is a great trollposter, I encourage him getting fucked up the ass. to post more

Ah fixed. Emphasis mine. Bent the thread with that ur-priest shite.

Here's something different.
Most of the other boards accept (and debate regularly) the tier system.
The Gaming Den? Pissed on that system, and cast it from Valhalla, etc, etc...

B-b-but the archivist can totally own a beguiler if the DM loves archvists enough!