New Infinity Engine style game in the works...

[Username17]

It's important to remember that the Planescape universe is actually very stupid and that Torment was awesome in spite of that. It took very excellent writing to make a fucking Modron be a character that people didn't find inherently offensive. Don't forget that your compatriots also include a Githzerai, a race that until Torment was a widely hated race of NPCs with class levels - part of the incredibly insulting series of AD&D races who exist for no purpose other than to provide challenges reminiscent of fights against other parties without handing out as much treasure as that would imply.

Torment succeeded, but it had to play incredibly fast and loose with the canon to do so. Of your entire party only Annah is a legal character. The Nameless One is a Mary Stu, Falls From Grace is a Succubus with Cleric levels in Sigil, Nordom is a Chaotic Quadrone with class levels, Dak'kon required a complete rewrite of the Gith canon, Morte isn't even a D&D monster, and Ignus not only has a spellbook full of "spells I made up for this character", he's a completely made-up fire-man thingy.

Saying you want something "like" Torment is rather like saying you want lightning to strike. Absolutely none of the inputs that went in to Torment would lead any rational person to expect a result that wasn't shitty. Only really good writing coupled with blatant contempt for the source material produced a positive result.

-Username17

[John Magnum]

The criticism continues because it's still relevant. Remember: When Obsidian was making Fallout: New Vegas, people were more excited because "Oh, some of the Fallout 2 guys are working on it" than because "Oh, boy, a new game from the NWN2 developer".

Obsidian's actual track record is pretty bad. There are a bunch of independent extenuating circumstances for plenty of their games, sure. But the fact remains that Obsidian's catalogue consists of four nobly-intentioned ambitious failures and one game nobody gives a shit about.

[Lago PARANOIA]

But honestly, while Planescape is great,

Since when?

let's be honest, anything made to be "in that style" now would involve people not understanding the style, screwing it up, and making a bad/mediocre game.

While screwing up a bad project and setting isn't going to make it good, I'm baffled as to how making a true-to-the-source Planescape setting would be better than slapping together any weird mythology mishmash and calling that Planescape.

Sure, maybe you could have a sequel to Planescape: Torment, but a game based off of Planescape can only be any good if they play fast and loose with the setting.

If we're going to make an Infinity Engine throwback to an established D&D setting, how about some Ravenloft or Dark Sun? If you want to appeal to grognards and nostalgia freaks, make it Dragonlance and squirrel away some of the stupider elements. I wouldn't be offended by an Urban Arcana setting if it didn't use d20 Modern mechanics. If you want some hidden gem campaign setting where you can get your grimdark on there's Relics and Rituals. Or you could just throw in the towel and do Forgotten Realms, again.

[sabs]

I still think that warhammer 40k has a better grimdark setting than anything D&D ever put together. Gah, Forgotten Realms is just, so much shittiness. You'd want to have a cataclysm or 3, and a God War to basically recreate the whole place. The whole place is shitty, with stupid ideas.

[Whipstitch]

The criticism continues because it's still relevant. Remember: When Obsidian was making Fallout: New Vegas, people were more excited because "Oh, some of the Fallout 2 guys are working on it" than because "Oh, boy, a new game from the NWN2 developer".

That example is kinda dumb. Expecting a former Fallout game writer like Chris Avellone to have ideas with what to do with the setting is hardly a non sequitur. I would have rolled with the excitement people had about KOTORII. Personally, I feel like the Obsidian guys take an appropriate amount of flak given that their name is all but synonymous with bug riddled at this point.

[Kaelik]

But honestly, while Planescape is great,

Since when?

You realize that when I said "Baldur's Gate, IWD, Planescape" in that order that Planescape is just a shorthand for Planescape Tourment, right?

Is this one of those things were you hate random things? I mean, I know PL hates Planescape, because anyone anywhere likes it, but why would you think it wasn't good?

While screwing up a bad project and setting isn't going to make it good, I'm baffled as to how making a true-to-the-source Planescape setting would be better than slapping together any weird mythology mishmash and calling that Planescape.

Well that was pretty much my entire point. Planescape: Torment was good. But I don't want anyone else trying to make a game "like" Planescape or "in the style of" Planescape, because inevitably they are going to think a bunch of stuff that isn't important is, and they are going to get rid of the important stuff, and then it's going to suck balls.

[sake]

The entire first paragraph of Project Eternity's Kickstarter's "Who is Obsidian Entertainment?" section consists of all the projects that people in Obsidian worked on before they were at Obsidian. The paragraph after that has a handful of mentions of Fallout: New Vegas, but is mostly describing... the pre-Obsidian projects of individual contributors to the team. They don't actually mention any game they've developed as Obsidian except New Vegas. They don't describe themselves as "The team that brought you KotOR II and Alpha Protocol". They're "The team that has the same guys that brought you Icewind Dale and Planescape Torment".

It's odd they don't at least mention Mask of the Betrayer, as it was generally bug free, and one of the best RPG's of that generation of games. I guess it's because mentioning MotB also means having to mention the rest of NWN 2.

I still think that warhammer 40k has a better grimdark setting than anything D&D ever put together.

40K fails for being too grim dark though. For a setting like that to work you either need lots of black humor (which GW has been systematically ripping out which each new edition) or you need there to be just this teeny tiny little spark of hope to motivate people. (which GW has also been systematically ripping out which each new edition) Otherwise you end up with a setting were the most positive and productive action a good guy could take would be to actually try and destroy the entire rotting cancerous shitpile of a universe and everything in it, so that something better might come along to take it's place eons later.

[Lago PARANOIA]

Is this one of those things were you hate random things? I mean, I know PL hates Planescape, because anyone anywhere likes it, but why would you think it wasn't good?

Firstly, I'd like to say that I haven't read any 2E Planescape promotional materials. So they might have some super-special awesome feature that redeems it. But after Modrons, I highly doubt it. I have read Manual of the Planes/Planar Handbook (3E, 3.5E, and 4E D&D) and even the Sigil articles for Dragon when they showed up in 4E. I am extremely unimpressed. There's nothing to the setting unless you want to have an elemental-themed adventure (and you don't need Planescape for that) or want to roleplay in Sigil. And frankly I find the core conceit behind Sigil extremely vile.

Planescape is a toolbox. And a really bad one. It's not as bad as Ninter Vale, but it's worse than the Forgotten Realms.

[Kaelik]

Is this one of those things were you hate random things? I mean, I know PL hates Planescape, because anyone anywhere likes it, but why would you think it wasn't good?

Firstly, I'd like to say that I haven't read any 2E Planescape promotional materials. So they might have some super-special awesome feature that redeems it. But after Modrons, I highly doubt it. I have read Manual of the Planes/Planar Handbook (3E, 3.5E, and 4E D&D) and even the Sigil articles for Dragon when they showed up in 4E. I am extremely unimpressed. There's nothing to the setting unless you want to have an elemental-themed adventure (and you don't need Planescape for that) or want to roleplay in Sigil. And frankly I find the core conceit behind Sigil extremely vile.

Planescape is a toolbox. And a really bad one. It's not as bad as Ninter Vale, but it's worse than the Forgotten Realms.

Okay Lago. You are a fucking idiot.

Let's try this again. Did you read this part:

"Planescape is just a shorthand for Planescape Tourment, right?"

Okay, so do you hate Planescape TORMENT, THE TORMENTING. TOURMENT. WITH TORMENT.

I know it has the word planescape in it, but can you for the love of god actually read what I said very clearly and answer the actual question?

[Lago PARANOIA]

I know it has the word planescape in it, but can you for the love of god actually read what I said very clearly and answer the actual question?

I'm sorry for misreading and not processing your redefining of terms. But you'll forgive me if I've suddenly have a bad case of 'not talking to a histrionic monkey' and don't feel like answering your original question.

[Mask_De_H]

I know it has the word planescape in it, but can you for the love of god actually read what I said very clearly and answer the actual question?

I'm sorry for misreading and not processing your redefining of terms. But you'll forgive me if I've suddenly have a bad case of 'not talking to a histrionic monkey' and don't feel like answering your original question.

Lago, the Den is comprised of histrionic monkeys, yourself included. Don't pull that passive aggressive bullshit and answer the question.

[Lago PARANOIA]

Lago, the Den is comprised of histrionic monkeys, yourself included. Don't pull that passive aggressive bullshit and answer the question.

That may be so, but I still feel that flipping out at someone complete with bolding and a rant for making an honest reading mistake is crossing the line. I fucked up reading that post, okay?

[Kaelik]

Lago, the Den is comprised of histrionic monkeys, yourself included. Don't pull that passive aggressive bullshit and answer the question.

That may be so, but I still feel that flipping out at someone complete with bolding and a rant for making an honest reading mistake is crossing the line. I fucked up reading that post, okay?

No, you fucked up reading the first post. Which is why I specifically spelled it out for you in the second post, where you somehow managed to misread a clarification directed directly at you.

But for some reason, you think it's out of line for me to bold the line that you completely missed in the second post?

Tell me dumb fuck, what was I supposed to do? I mean, you obviously couldn't read it when it was just typed in regular roman type with no emphasis.

[theye1]

I've read that Planescape was an attempt to copy White Wolf's style of gameplay.

[K]

I've read that Planescape was an attempt to copy White Wolf's style of gameplay.

I don't see how that could be true in any sense.

[Lago PARANOIA]

But for some reason, you think it's out of line for me to bold the line that you completely missed in the second post?

As much as I hate to admit it, you have a point. I did deserve that yelling. Jesus, I really need to do something about my reading comprehension.

[hogarth]

I've read that Planescape was an attempt to copy White Wolf's style of gameplay.

I don't see how that could be true in any sense.

Vampire has weird factions and Planescape has weird factions. But that's stretching it.

[Username17]

I've read that Planescape was an attempt to copy White Wolf's style of gameplay.

I don't see how that could be true in any sense.

+1.

Planescape comes from almost the exact middle of 2nd edition AD&D, during a period when they were bringing out a few new campaign settings every single year. It is one of the many campaign settings whose purported purpose is to make sense of high level D&D stuff. Like Spelljammer before it, it lets people travel to all the different AD&D worlds and tries to make playing in a universe that has high level Magic Users into something that makes sense. Also in the series are Ravenloft and Birthright that go the other direction and come up with various caveats for why high level Magic Users don't exist.

Note that Rein*Hagen literally and specifically ripped off elements from Ravenloft to make Vampire: the Masquerade. So people claiming that TSR ripped off White Wolf for their "dealing with high level stuff" settings is pretty hilariously wrong.

-Username17

[DSMatticus]

But that's stretching it.

I've never been quite sure what 'it' is made out of, but I'm pretty sure nothing stretches that much.

[Avoraciopoctules]

Starting to see game art
http://media.obsidian.net/eternity/medi ... 0x1024.jpg

[John Magnum]

I would hope to see something that slightly resembles the actual game. And also isn't nearly identical to the 4e house style.

[Avoraciopoctules]

Classes: the "Core Four"

Classes in Project Eternity are meant to provide a general framework for character types. Different classes excel in different areas, but the framework can be extended and elaborated on in a multitude of ways to create characters with unique capabilities. If you see a fighter, chances are good that he or she is going to be able to take a lot of damage, but that's about all you can be sure of. If you see a wizard, he or she probably has some hard-hitting spells that can cover a large area, but his potential list of capabilities is vast.

If you want to create a wizard who wears plate armor and hacks away with a broadsword from behind a heavily-enhanced arcane veil, we want to let you do that. If your idea of the perfect fighter is one who wears light armor and uses a variety of dazzling rapier attacks in rapid succession, we want to help you make that character. So it's good to think of Project Eternity's classes as being purpose-ready but not purpose-limited.

Fighter

Fighter - Fighters are men and women trained to use a wide variety of traditional weapons in brutal combat. They are often put in -- or put themselves in -- harm's way and are built to take an extraordinary amount of punishment. Though not traditionally as mobile as the monk nor as likely to dish out individually withering attacks as a rogue, fighters are dependable and flexible, able to shift between a variety of attack modes that alternate between high damage, maintaining a strong defense, weakening opponents, and dealing harsh retribution to those who attack his or her allies. Some fighters build up arsenals of feints, knockdowns, and special attacks rather than rely on the “slow and steady” approach.

And while fighters are often thought of as being primarily melee-based, they can specialize in a variety of weapons, including bows, crossbows, and even firearms. They're unlikely to outclass rangers at their own game, but fighters can be almost as dangerous at a distance as they are up close. Though it may not look like it to see them in battle next to wizards and priests, fighters are just as able to tap into the power of their souls to devastating effect: accelerating their attacks to a superhuman speed, striking foes with such power that nearby opponents are knocked off their feet, and maintaining a phenomenal endurance that allows them to rapidly bounce back from even terrible wounds.

When they aren't locked in life and death struggles, fighters are, unsurprisingly, often quite athletically capable. Even so, it's not uncommon to find fighters who are stealthy and well-educated. Moving unseen and knowing how to get out of a jam can come in handy even for them.

Spoiler

Priest - In a world with many gods, there are many different types of priests. Though the majority of priests spend their time tending to worshipers or engaged in relatively peaceful pursuits, there are ranks of dedicated adventuring or mercenary priests who have turned the flame of their faith into a spark to ignite the power of their souls. Such men and women have found a divine link to their chosen deity, but their abilities stem solely from within.

Dedicated to spreading the news of their gods' dominions in the realms of mortals through their own deeds, adventuring priests thrust themselves into lethal conflict to prove their worth. Often trained to fight alongside soldiers of their respective churches, priests are capable in the fray (and near the fray, for those who follow less melee-oriented faiths), but their true power comes from their prayers, faith-inspired miracles that aid their allies and punish their enemies. These miracles range from combat blessings, weapon enchantments, and protective barriers to divine summons, sanctified wards, and crippling curses. In many ways, the prayers of priests have almost as much variety as wizards spells, though priests are restricted to invoking prayers that are aligned with their faith. Additionally, priests often specialize in the weapons, armor, and litanies of prayers most beloved by their church. Thus, the multitude of gods produces a multitude of different priests, each with their own unique array of abilities.

Most priests are church-educated and are widely versed in many types of lore. However, some priests get by on pure faith alone, having little knowledge of the world around them. Such battle priests often lean more heavily on their athletic abilities when they are in the field.

Rogue

Rogue - Contrary to what their name might imply, rogues come from many walks of life. They are cutpurses, thugs, and courtesans but also aristocrats, diplomats, and personal guards. Often separated by station in life, they are united by their reliance on wits, speed, and subterfuge to achieve their goals. The way of the rogue is not to stand toe-to-toe with the biggest brute in the room and exchange body blows, but to glance away in feigned confusion and slip an unseen blade between the brute's ribs as he turns his attention. When a room explodes in a storm of fire, the fighters grit their teeth, the priests pray for salvation, and the wizards fumble to find a spell to protect them, but the rogues just... disappear. They excel at being in the one place where no one's looking, at kicking people when they're down, at taunting a foe into turning its back on the rogue's ally while he or she nimbly skips away, and at being just too damned slippery to pin down.

Whether they pack a pair of daggers, a fine rapier, a slim bow, a stubby pistol, or a brutish club, rogues haul a carnival of pain with them wherever they go. If their natural tendencies weren't dangerous enough, their affinity for skullduggery allows some talented rogues to tap into their souls to perform amazing stunts: fading from view in plain sight, briefly cloaking their allies in a veil of shadow, imbuing their weapons with a soul-eating venom, or even becoming so insubstantial that blades barely hurt them.

While rogues are known for their stealthy nature both in and out of battle, many of them are quite talented with machines and contraptions of all sorts. High-born rogues are often very knowledgeable about esoteric, while many low-born rogues are well-equipped to survive in the wild.

Wizard

Wizard - Widely respected in most societies, wizards of Project Eternity are men and women of high education and extreme mental discipline, if not always outright intelligence. Wizards are sometimes called navigators of the mortal soul, charting out and practicing the precise ways in which “ordinary” people can unlock the power inside of themselves. Using their knowledge to truly spectacular ends, wizards rely not only on ancient practices but also their own research to propel them forward. Far from being occult or protected knowledge, most wizards' spells are just so incredibly complex and physically demanding that even practiced wizards cannot invoke them without the use of expensive, specially-enchanted tomes.

And what do the tomes contain? Instructions on ways to use one's soul to alter reality, to warp time around enemies, to make skin as tough as stone, to counter even the most powerful magic, to invoke balls of flame, bolts of lightning, gouts of acid, to conjure nightmares out of thin air. Truly, the possibilities open to wizards seem to exceed even those of what priests can call upon through their faith. And though any wizard may prepare several tomes, an inexperienced caster is not capable of channeling power through the log-thick, anvil-heavy, dog-eared grimoires of wizened archmagi. Such novices must alternate between more modest selections, relying on their less demanding spells and talents when they are unable to call upon their tomes.

Wizards are often assumed to be masters of occult lore. While this certainly applies to their knowledge of spells, many wizards are so narrowly-focused that they are ignorant of outside culture and history. It is also not uncommon for wizards to delight as much in mechanical curiosities as rogues. Because their powers make them targets in battle, a surprising number of wizards are quite fit, even if they aren't particularly strong.

[MfA]

I would hope to see something that slightly resembles the actual game. And also isn't nearly identical to the 4e house style.

Have they even decided on polygon budgets yet? (And are they telling?)

[Avoraciopoctules]

Wormix asks...
In certain CRPGs you will regenerate all your health and mana after every fight, ensuring that you have your full power for every fight. In the IE games you didn't regenerate spells or health after each battle, making spell management a strategic concern.While this allows individual fights to be balanced for difficulty easier and is less punishing in general, it removes an aspect of strategy from the game that a lot of players enjoy. What is Project Eternity's aim in terms of strategic resource management?

In the old IE games, wizards and priests had resources that got drained and did not regenerate before the next battle, unlike fighters and rogues that few or no such resources. We are looking for a middle ground solution, either one where the wizards aren't the only ones to make a hard choice of whether to "use up" a resource, or one where no class has to make such a choice. For example, we are looking into the idea that wizards are only limited in the number of times they can cast their higher-level combat spells in a fight, and other spell are castable as many times as you want. As the wizard levels up, spells that previously had a limit can now be cast an unlimited number of times, and the newly acquired spells are the ones with a limit. And we could make similar abilities for fighters, priests and rogues too. In general, we always want to the player to have a choice of what to do with a particular character, and we want those choices to change as the character becomes more powerful.

Now for a bonus question!

Diablo169 asks...
Could you please provide a bit more detail on how skill/spell cooldowns are going to factor into the games combat system?

Sure, let me give some specifics on how we are planning to incorporate cooldowns into the wizard class. First off, cooldowns are NOT on individual spells. For any particular spell, you cast it, and when you are done, you can cast it again right away. But one limitation is on spells of a particular level. When you cast a certain number of those spells, in any combination, then the whole spell level group goes into a cooldown, and you can't use any of them until that cooldown has passed. That cooldown is long enough that for short battles, you are limited to casting a certain number of spells for each spell level. For long battles, that cooldown might expire and you can start casting those spells again.

The other cooldown has to do with your grimoire. A wizard may know a lot of spells, but he can only cast a few basic spells plus the ones that are in the grimoire that he is holding. Grimoires vary in size, holding various numbers of spells of different spell levels, and the player is free to load up his different grimoires with spell combinations of his choice. But once combat begins, switching grimoires causes a cooldown for all of those spells, leaving the caster only able to cast his basic spells until the grimoire cooldown passes. This means the player will have to think carefully about which spells he adds to a grimoire and under what situations he would want to switch one for another.

[Voss]

I would hope to see something that slightly resembles the actual game. And also isn't nearly identical to the 4e house style.

Yeah, 'Generic modern' is about the only thing that fits the style. Down to the standard inclusion of somebody with a gun, just because.

But 4e standard seems to be their vision:

Tim: Yes, we are looking to include many of these features into our close combat system. Specifically, opportunity attacks and flanking are definitely in, as well as charging. We're not sure about reach weapons yet (we need to figure out if that attribute on a weapon will be worthwhile enough in combat and will supportable with the appropriate UI), and while we will support prone positions, you won't be able to attack while prone because the animations involved are too different from attacks while standing that we would have to make every animation twice, once for standing and once for prone. This limitation also means that grappling abilities will not be included. There are too many new animations needed and special case limitations that apply, e.g. how does a human grapple a centaur or a dragon or an ooze?).

Some of it has justifiable reasons behind it, but I'm starting to wonder if this whole thing happened because they went to hasbro asking about the D&D license (whether for 4e or 5e, doesn't matter), and were told to go fuck themselves.

@Avoraciopoctules

That general blurb and those specific class blurbs seem somewhat contradictory. If a goal is to let people do things they want (like plate-armored wizards, and swashbuckling fighters) and the core concept is magical bullshit happens because you fondle your soul really hard (and everybody plainly gets magical bullshit, even if wizardly soul bullshit is just straight up better, which seems indicated), why the fuck bother with classes at all?


Right, and I'm a little tired of 'if I study really hard, I can fuck reality sideways; but only if I'm clutching my notebook like its a second cock.'