'mundane-flavored superpowers'

Foxwarrior · Post by **Foxwarrior** » Wed Dec 05, 2012 2:15 am

Ah, mundane-flavored mundane powers. Refreshing.

1. Is the players' job.
2. Is a thing they can do.
3. I could develop that..
4. And this too.
5. Hard counters can be mundane-flavored, but I want these mundane-flavored people to have more subtle soft counter battles.
6. I've got some of this.
7. I could do a little more here.
8. That's the players' job too.
9. In this game, you gain this ability by having a weaker primary character than you could otherwise have. Mundanes capping out before mages do works very well with this.
10. I have some stunt shooting things here and there; a demolitionist could be a nice addition.

tussock · Post by **tussock** » Wed Dec 05, 2012 8:26 am

Golden-age superman. Faster than a speeding bullet, more powerful than a locomotive, able to leap tall buildings in a single bound. Man of steel, gets shot and doesn't care. Modern equivalent might be Colossus, even now that he's unstoppable which was Juggernaut's whole thing.

codeGlaze · Post by **codeGlaze** » Wed Dec 05, 2012 2:21 pm

tussock wrote:Golden-age superman. Faster than a speeding bullet, more powerful than a locomotive, able to leap tall buildings in a single bound. Man of steel, gets shot and doesn't care. Modern equivalent might be Colossus, even now that he's unstoppable which was Juggernaut's whole thing.

He *IS* Juggernaut.

So Juggernaut's thing is... now his thing. Colossanaut?

Anyway, I was thinking the same thing about Superman. I kept forgetting to mention it! xD With the leaping, not the flying.

Spirit channeling or battle-transformations could be good too. Like the BEARserker, who.... turns into a bearman. Or friggin Breath of Fire where you turn into a pseudo-dragon form for a limited amount of time.

Mutations.

Spell resistance. Actually being able to resist magic, or cut it to pieces! Lock down a mage with simple command-words at higher power.
(I was reading the Hellbreaker PrC while I couldn't sleep this morning... They can steal uses of spell-like and supernatural abilities, 'stowaway' on OTHER people's teleports/plane shifts/etc, stop summons, dampen/scramble psychic communication, NEUTRALIZE spell-like abilities, and eventually plane shift all on their own... I thought that was pretty bad ass for a fully 'mundane' oriented PrC)

Previn · Post by **Previn** » Wed Dec 05, 2012 2:38 pm

codeGlaze wrote:Anyway, I was thinking the same thing about Superman. I kept forgetting to mention it! xD With the leaping, not the flying.

Samurai Jack!

codeGlaze · Post by **codeGlaze** » Wed Dec 05, 2012 2:43 pm

Previn wrote: Samurai Jack!

Oh man, I love the episode where he LEARNED to 'jump good'. xD

Desdan_Mervolam · Post by **Desdan_Mervolam** » Wed Dec 05, 2012 2:53 pm

I am having a lot of trouble not seeing this excersie as intellectually bankrupt from the word go. Mundane people cannot study a technique to phase through a wall, or tap a chakra to to heal a previously lethal wound, or light people on fire because they're JUST THAT ANGRY RIGHT NOW, you guys. These things are magic with another flavor, pretending otherwise is stupid and counterproductive. High level fighters become magic users, just not ones that get their magic from reading a book every day. That's the way it has to be. When the guy next to you can set a mountain on fire, you better know a secret sword technique that can let you slice that mountain in half, otherwise you need to go home now.

sabs · Post by **sabs** » Wed Dec 05, 2012 3:12 pm

Desdan_Mervolam wrote:I am having a lot of trouble not seeing this excersie as intellectually bankrupt from the word go. Mundane people cannot study a technique to phase through a wall, or tap a chakra to to heal a previously lethal wound, or light people on fire because they're JUST THAT ANGRY RIGHT NOW, you guys. These things are magic with another flavor, pretending otherwise is stupid and counterproductive. High level fighters become magic users, just not ones that get their magic from reading a book every day. That's the way it has to be. When the guy next to you can set a mountain on fire, you better know a secret sword technique that can let you slice that mountain in half, otherwise you need to go home now.

Quoted for Truthiness

High level mundane is stupid and dumb.
Now, if you want High level Warrior, that's totally doable. But he's going to look like a Jedi, or Goku or something.

Avoraciopoctules · Post by **Avoraciopoctules** » Wed Dec 05, 2012 4:31 pm

This thread is about cool things you can give the guy who doesn't cast spells. They aren't "Mundanes". They are people with less use-limited superpowers.

So a skinshifter who turns into a werewolf when you kill him the first time and has magic howls that summon, debuff, and lay down battlefield control effects he can use even on his first life? If the howls are on cooldown timers instead of being prepared as spells, that is a noncaster.

Foxwarrior · Post by **Foxwarrior** » Wed Dec 05, 2012 7:06 pm

You're being too broad, Avoraciopoctules: that includes things like all the characters in Heroes and Eragon; essentially everyone except a Vancian caster.

And you're right, Desdan. So I shall declare the central conceit of mundane superpowers: you can get better at anything with enough practice, and you can't practice what you can't begin to attempt.

Desdan_Mervolam · Post by **Desdan_Mervolam** » Thu Dec 06, 2012 1:07 pm

Foxwarrior wrote:You're being too broad, Avoraciopoctules: that includes things like all the characters in Heroes and Eragon; essentially everyone except a Vancian caster.

And you're right, Desdan. So I shall declare the central conceit of mundane superpowers: you can get better at anything with enough practice, and you can't practice what you can't begin to attempt.

'Mundane Superpowers' is a contradiction in terms. What you're talking about is giving fighters supernatural powers, just ones that don't happen to be spells. That's fine, and what I think has to happen for Fighters to have any hope of high-level competition. But to talk about giving fighters super powers and pretending he's just an ordinary guy at that point is asinine.

Wizardry, in pop culture in general and D&D specifically, is portrayed as the result of years of dedicated study. Just saying that your death attack is the result of years of study of the precise locations of pressure points, the right order to hit them in, and the specific rhythm you have to hit them with doesn't make you any different from the Wizard who had to spend years studying the precise gestures needed, and the specific, highly careful pronunciation of words in a language that no mortal civilization has ever used, but one that the universe was spoken into existence with in order to cast Finger of Death.

You are talking about magic users who don't use a spell-slot mechanic. Own it. Love it. Take it forth with you into the night and declare "My high level fighter will not even let physics make laws for him!"

sabs · Post by **sabs** » Thu Dec 06, 2012 2:30 pm

How do you practice slicing a rift into temporal space with your sword? If you can't even begin to practice doing it. That's just.. a WTF statement.

How do you practice leaping tall building in a single bound? Do you start with parkour and work your way up to more and more ridiculous shit? I mean, wtf. Why is it okay for the Wizard to open up a Gate into the Abyss but.. let the fighter able to do 100' jumps.. and people get their panties in a twist.

High level fighters/rogues/rangers.. should be able to do Parkour/longrunning that makes your eyes weep with it's incredibility. You should be like, holy shit.. is he just teleporting from spot to spot? How does he move that fast/gracefully. Paladins/Cavaliers should make you drop your jaw in amazement at the shit they pull off with their mounts.

High level fighters should be able to walk into a room full of warriors and have them in fear or awe (depending) on the level of 8 year old girls at a Bieber concert.

RadiantPhoenix · Post by **RadiantPhoenix** » Thu Dec 06, 2012 3:05 pm

sabs wrote:How do you practice slicing a rift into temporal space with your sword? If you can't even begin to practice doing it. That's just.. a WTF statement.

You start by swinging a sword.

Then, you start swinging it faster and harder.

Eventually, you can swing it so fast that even time itself can't get out of the way fast enough, and so hard it cuts time right open.

Ta-da, temporal rift.

Wulf · Post by **Wulf** » Thu Dec 06, 2012 3:09 pm

http://hunterxhunter.wikia.com/wiki/Nen

Nen, like aura/lifeforce/spiritual energy and its expressions of it. This might be an idea or something to "borrow" from.

codeGlaze · Post by **codeGlaze** » Thu Dec 06, 2012 3:29 pm

sabs wrote:[...]
High level fighters/rogues/rangers.. should be able to do Parkour/longrunning that makes your eyes weep with it's incredibility. You should be like, holy shit.. is he just teleporting from spot to spot? How does he move that fast/gracefully. Paladins/Cavaliers should make you drop your jaw in amazement at the shit they pull off with their mounts.

High level fighters should be able to walk into a room full of warriors and have them in fear or awe (depending) on the level of 8 year old girls at a Bieber concert.

Pretty sure that's the point of the thread?

Just spin magic into a more 'physical discipline' flavor, as opposed to caster-flavor?

So channeling Ki, spirit energy, essence of the god, pure hate and fury, awesomeness... what ever.

The magic of fighter types should be based around combat and combat discipline. So moving faster, jumping higher, hitting harder... so fast that you're a blur, so high you're basically flying, hitting hard enough to break mountains. (For mid-level abilities)

Then you become so awesome, so epic, that you can run through the veil separating planes, jump around the planet (Hulk-flying) and punch through time itself.

Your fists and swords create sonic booms, you can crack open the earth with a stomp. Through in mystical discipline juju and you can incorporate actual blade magic, ki powers... kamehamehas.... what ever.

So how do we handle that? Would warriors get unlimited use of their awesome? Would they need to use stances or some other activation-type movement for their cosmic power? Or would that be the balance point? They get all this uber-mobility and in-your-face action power, but have limited selections of power?

shadzar · Post by **shadzar** » Thu Dec 06, 2012 3:45 pm

RadiantPhoenix wrote:
sabs wrote:How do you practice slicing a rift into temporal space with your sword? If you can't even begin to practice doing it. That's just.. a WTF statement.
You start by swinging a sword.

Then, you start swinging it faster and harder.

Eventually, you can swing it so fast that even time itself can't get out of the way fast enough, and so hard it cuts time right open.

Ta-da, temporal rift.

paradox alert!

you would have to slash so fast that you finished your slash BEFORE you began swinging it.

or jsut magically infuse a sword with the ability to cut time and ignore all that physics nonsense and continue playing.

SoD is the great equalizer when it come to mundane vs magic effects.

RadiantPhoenix · Post by **RadiantPhoenix** » Thu Dec 06, 2012 4:13 pm

shadzar wrote:paradox alert!

you would have to slash so fast that you finished your slash BEFORE you began swinging it.

If you swing your sword faster than light, I'm pretty sure that relativity says that you did (at least from the perspective of whatever you hit).

Also, it's time travel -- of course it will cause paradoxes.

ishy · Post by **ishy** » Thu Dec 06, 2012 4:37 pm

Desdan_Mervolam wrote:I am having a lot of trouble not seeing this excersie as intellectually bankrupt from the word go. Mundane people cannot study a technique to phase through a wall, or tap a chakra to to heal a previously lethal wound, or light people on fire because they're JUST THAT ANGRY RIGHT NOW, you guys. These things are magic with another flavor, pretending otherwise is stupid and counterproductive. High level fighters become magic users, just not ones that get their magic from reading a book every day. That's the way it has to be. When the guy next to you can set a mountain on fire, you better know a secret sword technique that can let you slice that mountain in half, otherwise you need to go home now.

Does it really matter if it is intellectually bankrupt?
Didn't Tome of Battle do the exact same thing? The goal of the book was giving spells to non-casters.
Hell the 3.5 phb for example is already very specific that you can break the laws of physics by non-magical means.

Libertad · Post by **Libertad** » Thu Dec 06, 2012 7:08 pm

A wizard learns by studying his spellbook and the various forms of magic. A Cleric learns by studying theological doctrines and inward prayer.

A Fighter learns through combat, through conflict. His willingness to adapt has kept him alive through troubled times; willful ignorance and meaningless superstitions are suicide in a world full of wizards and dragons who can bend reality.

1. More senses: A true warrior must learn to be ever aware of his surroundings, and adapt to new forms of concealment to better spot hidden foes. You meditate, listen to the air, spot visual shimmers and imperfections. A-ha! You've pinpointed the invisible foe! A-ha! Thanks to countless battles with evil wizards, you're able to recognize the signature taint of a magic aura!

2.More mobility: You've trained your body to physical perfection, you've studied the grasshopper, the bird, and the mole. You know that their abilities are merely natural, and to some extent you've learned to mimic these things. You can jump so well it may as well be flight. You can tunnel through dirt, soil, even rock with raw willpower and strength.

3. Negative Status Effects: Sometimes it's not enough to merely cause harm. Sometimes you must strike fear into the hearts of men, to sow discord within enemy ranks, to incapacitate yet not kill. Your mighty roar is a cone-shaped AoE which causes lesser opponents to panic. Your perplexing dance across the battlefield causes confusion in enemy witnesses, your blow sickens, stuns, and nauseates.

4. Area of Effect Attacks: You move so fast across the battlefield that enemies barely have time to react, or you rapidly throw knives or shoot arrows in a 360 degree radius. You use a burst emanation centered on yourself, and use normal weapon damage against all opponents within the radius. Either make it a Reflex save, or a single attack roll compared to the enemy's AC.

Foxwarrior · Post by **Foxwarrior** » Thu Dec 06, 2012 8:00 pm

You know, I've forgotten what type of audience I was trying to pander to with this. Do people who only want to play nonmagical characters really exist, or are they just an illusion?

Avoraciopoctules · Post by **Avoraciopoctules** » Thu Dec 06, 2012 8:13 pm

Depends on the kind of game you are talking about. If this is a strategy game like Conquest of Elysium, there are people who will spring for the Baron instead of the Fire Warlock.

But in that game, +50% to income, the ability to raise free defenders in all owned settlements and dramatically better recruitable troops are all pretty meaningful abilities.

They can be as useful as blowing up a squad of enemy troops per round, burning down forests to speed strategic-scale troop movement, and summoning genies roughly 5 times as good as human soldiers to fight in your armies.

Pedantic · Post by **Pedantic** » Thu Dec 06, 2012 8:15 pm

Foxwarrior wrote:You know, I've forgotten what type of audience I was trying to pander to with this. Do people who only want to play nonmagical characters really exist, or are they just an illusion?

I spent three threads on RPG.net trying to make this point. It is apparently maniacally important that you don't call these abilities magic and that they aren't "supernatural" but rather "supernormal."

You've got an audience who desperately wants their superheroes to be strictly "mundane" and still hang with wizards.

Foxwarrior · Post by **Foxwarrior** » Thu Dec 06, 2012 8:15 pm

But if the Baron was called the Enchanter instead (without changing any of the mechanics), would people be mad?

Foxwarrior · Post by **Foxwarrior** » Thu Dec 06, 2012 8:16 pm

Pedantic wrote:
Foxwarrior wrote:You know, I've forgotten what type of audience I was trying to pander to with this. Do people who only want to play nonmagical characters really exist, or are they just an illusion?
I spent three threads on RPG.net trying to make this point. It is apparently maniacally important that you don't call these abilities magic and that they aren't "supernatural" but rather "supernormal."

You've got an audience who desperately wants their superheroes to be strictly "mundane" and still hang with wizards.

Ahh, so I should bring this thread over there?

Avoraciopoctules · Post by **Avoraciopoctules** » Thu Dec 06, 2012 8:21 pm

Foxwarrior wrote:But if the Baron was called the Enchanter instead (without changing any of the mechanics), would people be mad?

... I might be annoyed if I was offered an Enchanter who didn't have the ability to supercharge individual champion units by crafting gear and making war-golems. But some people would probably be okay with an enchanter that was all about making terra cotta soldiers and laborers.

Foxwarrior · Post by **Foxwarrior** » Thu Dec 06, 2012 8:36 pm

Avoraciopoctules wrote:
Foxwarrior wrote:But if the Baron was called the Enchanter instead (without changing any of the mechanics), would people be mad?
... I might be annoyed if I was offered an Enchanter who didn't have the ability to supercharge individual champion units by crafting gear and making war-golems. But some people would probably be okay with an enchanter that was all about making terra cotta soldiers and laborers.

Would it be okay with you if they were called the Golem-Maker and they got the mechanical benefits of the Baron by cycling through buff spells in the optimal way?

Conquest of Elysium is a pretty different context, though. It's generally singleplayer, right? So if no mundane options exist, people who are addicted to mundanity will simply choose to play something else; with a TTRPG, it's the thing your friends are doing, so you're a bit more likely to go along with it even if it's not a perfect game, which means you're more likely to feel like complaining.

Also, there's a little bit of a distinction between commanding magical dragons and roleplaying a magical dragon.