Tiering Advancement in DnD

[Aryxbez]

It's like The Den was renewed for a new season but the network heads demanded that the writers bring in a character called "Shadzar's scrappy little brother."

Except, at least this Shad, wants to support a less limited Fantasy Paradigm, where fighter dudes doing awesome things at least.

However, in regards to zugschef, you seem to have ignored the second part of this post:

Your examples don't seem to match up with your "ranking by essential abilities" thesis. And you haven't really provided any particular argument for your "ranking by essential abilities" idea other than your examples... so I'm not sure why you're surprised that that's the part people are poking holes in.

I also disagree that warrior types should just change classes to a spellcaster, or go from fighter, to Spellbook wielding weakling. As been said, you can preserve a class's identity, even if those abilities are "magical" or supernatural and high level appropriate in nature.

As for a thread about the Epic Level Handbook, great thing is, "everyone" knows its bad. Even back in times of my own ignorance, I knew that book seemed a bit off, and unbalanced. If it's fans couldn't tell of the games imbalance before, the design issues present make it obvious to all now. Only met "maybe" handful of people that felt otherwise on it, and they're pretty much DM Fiat heavy kind of folk (one even a large fan of White Wolf products).

[Mistborn]

To be perfectly honest I don't think there is a consenseus around what "epic tier"on the Den.

We have a good idea of what it means to be paragon tier. Visit other planes. Get where you want to be with teleport rather than hoofing it. Be a pretty cool guy kill monsters with GTFO abilities and don't afraid of any numbere of chumps with swords.

Looking over even the 9th level spells I don't see many that are game changing in the way Fly and Teleport except Astral Projection and possibly Apocalypse From the Sky.

So maybe we could brainstorm what effects transition you from Paragon to Epic the way Fly, Teleport, and Planeshift transtion you to Pargon from Heroic

[hyzmarca]

I think, instead of using dscriptors like Paragon and Epic, which really don't mean anything, we should be using scale of the playgroungthat you could be king of as a benchmark.

Village - At this level you can stab the Mayor of dirthole village to death and and declare yourself the new Mayor if you wanted to.
City - At this level you could stab the Mayor of a major metropolis to death and declare yourself the new Mayor and no one would be able to stop you.
Country - At this level you wield enough personal power to conquer a sizable nation.
Globe - At this level you're personally capable of world domination.
Planar - At this level you can dominate an entire plane of existence.
Multiversal - At this level you can dominate several planes of existence.
Universal - Nothing that exists can stand against you. Things that don't exist might be able to.

[Aryxbez]

I think, instead of using dscriptors like Paragon and Epic, which really don't mean anything, we should be using scale of the playgroungthat you could be king of as a benchmark.

Village - At this level you can stab the Mayor of dirthole village to death and and declare yourself the new Mayor if you wanted to.
City - At this level you could stab the Mayor of a major metropolis to death and declare yourself the new Mayor and no one would be able to stop you.
Country - At this level you wield enough personal power to conquer a sizable nation.
Globe - At this level you're personally capable of world domination.
Planar - At this level you can dominate an entire plane of existence.
Multiversal - At this level you can dominate several planes of existence.
Universal - Nothing that exists can stand against you. Things that don't exist might be able to.

So in a 20 levels sense it might go like this?:
Village = 1-4
City= 5-8
Country = 9-11
Globe =12-14
Planar =15-17
Multiversal =18-20
Universal = 21+

As I understand it, believe it was said on the Den awhile back, that something like "epic" would be more akin to playing Actraiser, than simple dungeon delves. Your enemies would be the politics with gods, Great Old Ones, and Concepts of the universe (like fighting Death, Greed, or Happiness in the world.

[Red_Rob]

To be perfectly honest I don't think there is a consenseus around what "epic tier"on the Den.

We have a good idea of what it means to be paragon tier. Visit other planes. Get where you want to be with teleport rather than hoofing it. Be a pretty cool guy kill monsters with GTFO abilities and don't afraid of any numbere of chumps with swords.

Looking over even the 9th level spells I don't see many that are game changing in the way Fly and Teleport except Astral Projection and possibly Apocalypse From the Sky.

So maybe we could brainstorm what effects transition you from Paragon to Epic the way Fly, Teleport, and Planeshift transtion you to Pargon from Heroic

Honestly, Paragon is where the game should stop. High level D&D breaks down not just because the math gets borked, but because it is conceptually hard to tell stories when the protagonists have the kind of abilities that level 8 or 9 spells give you. And they certainly don't fit well in a system designed around counting 5' squares and checking whether the barbarian has enough strength to break down a wooden door. Frank mentioned somewhere that all high level D&D adventures have to be timed adventures, because a level 15 Wizard given a few weeks can accomplish anything.

So you get 1-10 Mundane, 11-20 Heroic, 21-30 Paragon. You start killing kobolds and goblins and shooting firebolts and end up Planeshifting and Teleporting whilst Dominating armies of mortals. That gives you less scope than 3e but more than 4e, which I think is what most people want given Frank's "noone actually knows what high level D&D looks like" comment from one of the Tomes.

[Aharon]

To be perfectly honest I don't think there is a consenseus around what "epic tier"on the Den.

We have a good idea of what it means to be paragon tier. Visit other planes. Get where you want to be with teleport rather than hoofing it. Be a pretty cool guy kill monsters with GTFO abilities and don't afraid of any numbere of chumps with swords.

Looking over even the 9th level spells I don't see many that are game changing in the way Fly and Teleport except Astral Projection and possibly Apocalypse From the Sky.

So maybe we could brainstorm what effects transition you from Paragon to Epic the way Fly, Teleport, and Planeshift transtion you to Pargon from Heroic

Epic => Epic spells? Although they are a very bad subsystem, the intended uses are definitely epic - creating species from scratch, getting a duplicate of yourself from the future,...

[name_here]

It's like The Den was renewed for a new season but the network heads demanded that the writers bring in a character called "Shadzar's scrappy little brother."

He's doing the no-caps thing. That's rarely a good sign on this forum.

[Krakatoa]

Honestly, Paragon is where the game should stop. High level D&D breaks down not just because the math gets borked, but because it is conceptually hard to tell stories when the protagonists have the kind of abilities that level 8 or 9 spells give you. And they certainly don't fit well in a system designed around counting 5' squares and checking whether the barbarian has enough strength to break down a wooden door. Frank mentioned somewhere that all high level D&D adventures have to be timed adventures, because a level 15 Wizard given a few weeks can accomplish anything.

Which is essentially where 3.X is fundamentally unworkable once 7-9th level spells come into play. The high level spells (and metamagic feats) put Wizards on a level that's conceptually and mechanically removed from heroic fantasy and seems to have more in common with comic book power fantasies of the golden age. (And I'm talking Spectre or Stardust, not Superman) At that point you're playing a game so far removed from the actual game implied by the rules that you may as well write a whole new game system.

Still, the concepts of high level spells can be worked into D&D if they're implemented better--or if other players get comparable levels of power. In TSR D&D, this came in the form of Weapon Expertise, Followers, etc. In 4E it comes by making the sorts of niche-invalidating spells rituals. That sort of thing is necessary for a game that works in the basic conceptual space of D&D.

[zugschef]

To be perfectly honest I don't think there is a consenseus around what "epic tier"on the Den.

We have a good idea of what it means to be paragon tier. Visit other planes. Get where you want to be with teleport rather than hoofing it. Be a pretty cool guy kill monsters with GTFO abilities and don't afraid of any numbere of chumps with swords.

Looking over even the 9th level spells I don't see many that are game changing in the way Fly and Teleport except Astral Projection and possibly Apocalypse From the Sky.

So maybe we could brainstorm what effects transition you from Paragon to Epic the way Fly, Teleport, and Planeshift transtion you to Pargon from Heroic

thanks for this response; it got the thread back on topic.

yeah, astral projection seems to be a better reason for the change to epic than time stop: you do your standard adventures and don't run the risk of dying, unless your GM is a dick. the GM has to think of new stuff in order to challenge players without dickery.

[Saxony]

but that's the point: dnd goes into this territory in epic play. characters become unkillable, immortal, able to snip their fingers and just go where they want and they do stop time and alter the past.

God dammit no it does not. Have you ever read a high-level spell? They are variations on becoming stronger and killing a bunch of dudes. Some of them are "bring people back to life", but if you even took half a second to think about what abilities are actually in D&D you would out that what you're saying is stupid and completely untrue.

For god's sake, a wizard will want to cast time stop maybe three times a day. And it will take him 3 seconds to do it. And he will average only eighteen fucking seconds out of it. Only in the warped mind of someone who doesn't actually understand D&D can that be conceived in any way is "stopping time and altering the past".

I see you have never read the epic level handbook. Look up epic spellcasting. It's not just 9th level spells.

[hyzmarca]

I think, instead of using dscriptors like Paragon and Epic, which really don't mean anything, we should be using scale of the playgroungthat you could be king of as a benchmark.

Village - At this level you can stab the Mayor of dirthole village to death and and declare yourself the new Mayor if you wanted to.
City - At this level you could stab the Mayor of a major metropolis to death and declare yourself the new Mayor and no one would be able to stop you.
Country - At this level you wield enough personal power to conquer a sizable nation.
Globe - At this level you're personally capable of world domination.
Planar - At this level you can dominate an entire plane of existence.
Multiversal - At this level you can dominate several planes of existence.
Universal - Nothing that exists can stand against you. Things that don't exist might be able to.

So in a 20 levels sense it might go like this?:
Village = 1-4
City= 5-8
Country = 9-11
Globe =12-14
Planar =15-17
Multiversal =18-20
Universal = 21+

As I understand it, believe it was said on the Den awhile back, that something like "epic" would be more akin to playing Actraiser, than simple dungeon delves. Your enemies would be the politics with gods, Great Old Ones, and Concepts of the universe (like fighting Death, Greed, or Happiness in the world.

I'm not sure if it can properly be broken down into 20 levels, and I'm not really sure that it should. The old 1-20 advancement is, ultimately, flawed.
Ultimately, a certain level does not mean that you can fulfill an intended role.

At Village level you're a hero or a villain. Your actions matter and can be world changing, but you don't casually shape the world. It takes a lot of hard work. This is your basic Conan level.

At City level your actions will change the world, or at least the region. Countries can be conquered, but it's difficult. This is your basic King Arthur level. You have minions and send lesser adventurers on quests.

At Country level, you can casually conquer nations. You're basically a DMPC wizard, in the same league as Elminster. You send lesser adventurers on obscure fetch quests and then steal all of their thunder and glory at the last minute. They hate you for it.

At the global level you start playing in the god leagues.

At Planar, Lolth sublets your apartment.

At Multiversal ... I think Multiplanar sounds better, though)...
At Multiplanar you're basically Asmodeus or Zaphkiel or Dread Dormammu of the Dark Dimension. You're more a fundemental force of existance than a person.
At Universal you're basically Ao or the Lady of Pain. You're at pure DM fiat plot device levels. Pandorum (fully manifested, not just the mind-shard) is a moderately challenging encounter for you.


D&D really sucks at modeling plot device power levels.

[codeGlaze]

So you could release a product that ranges from Village to City levels, with maybe some support for advancement into Country levels.

But, really, City levels would be more like a transition from Village ruleset to Country ruleset.
So you'd later release a book with basically a second game that can integrate into your end-City levels. That would also allow for entry-level rules support for Planar.

Then you could have a supplement for Planar, Multiplanar and Universal. All with basically new rule sets to fit each new tier of power.

Sort of like a White Wolf approach by (hopefully) better.

[zugschef]

Ultimately such a tier list aims to help players (this includes the GM) where to stop advancement (not necessarily the campaign). Thus, i thought of some key questions players should ask themselves before starting a campaign.

Advanced: Do you really want to make gandalf's rescue by the eagle on top of orthanc dispensable?
Paragon: Do you really want to make the journey to the lonely mountain a farce?
Epic: Do you really want to enter a dimension which is beyond our cognitive capabilities?

The step from paragon to heroic still seems totally out of proportion, but maybe that's due to the fact that the power of spells scales exponentially to spell level.

[edit] As a benefit, if you reverse the questions (Do you really want the journey to the lonely mountain to be an adventure in this campaign?), this also helps with setting the starting level of a campaign.

[edit2] actually there is another tier between paragon and epic. when wizards start to cast CoP players start to enter the 4th dimension, because they possibly know the future. and then planar binding which gives access to unlimited resources. planar binding is debatable, though, since you can have unlimited gold as soon as level 1.

something like... fly = enter 3rd dimension -> teleport = you own 3rd dimension -> cop = enter 4th dimension -> wish = you own 4th dimension -> epic spells = enter 5th dimension and your heads explode

[hogarth]

To be perfectly honest I don't think there is a consenseus around what "epic tier"on the Den.

We have a good idea of what it means to be paragon tier. Visit other planes. Get where you want to be with teleport rather than hoofing it. Be a pretty cool guy kill monsters with GTFO abilities and don't afraid of any numbere of chumps with swords.

But even that is mostly just saying: "I no longer walk into a castle and kill an orc; now I SUPER-move into a SUPER-castle and SUPER-kill a SUPER-orc!"

[Mask_De_H]

To be perfectly honest I don't think there is a consenseus around what "epic tier"on the Den.

We have a good idea of what it means to be paragon tier. Visit other planes. Get where you want to be with teleport rather than hoofing it. Be a pretty cool guy kill monsters with GTFO abilities and don't afraid of any numbere of chumps with swords.

But even that is mostly just saying: "I no longer walk into a castle and kill an orc; now I SUPER-move into a SUPER-castle and SUPER-kill a SUPER-orc!"

Yeah, because moving and killing dudes are applicable to all tiers. Going beyond that requires extra sub-systems, like mass combat, stronghold building, far-reaching political intrigue, etc.

[Mistborn]

Another thing that people don't get about meaningful levels is that it changes how you interact with the world. characters at the low end probly fear for their lives if the local law enforcement takes exception to them that's fundamentally diffrent than at high paragon where there are likely only a handfull of people in any given kingdom that you actually give a shit about combatwise.

If you want to see how this works check out the wheel of time series especially books 5-7. When Rand goes in to Andor/Illian to take it over there's basically one guy in that entire nation that he actually gives a shit about combatwise and then when he's done schooling them his tiny men are there to actually administer the concered territory.

[hyzmarca]

There is also a major utility in having access to teleport, or an equivilant fast-travel method.

In a real word scenario, a teleporting wizard who wants Chinese food doesn't order take-out, he teleports to China. At lower tiers resources can be unavailable because of distance. One you hit teleportation, that isn't the case. If the only magic shop in the wrold that has what you want is in Eat Bumholia on the other side of the Mountains of Woe, riders have a major quest that takes weeks and teleportors have a minor distraction that takes 15 minutes because the guy at the front of the line wanted to pay with a personal check.

[zugschef]

very true. but i'd like to come back to cop and planar binding. are these two spells changing the game to a similar extent as fly and teleport?

[codeGlaze]

There could be a number or power-tier restrictions on things like teleport, portal, plane shift. From distance, to the amount of time the opening can be maintained, which planes are accessible, how long a spell takes to cast (longer duration for weaker characters).