Posted: Wed May 14, 2014 3:40 am
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Welcome to the Gaming Den.
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So to reiterate. While I have fully admitted my knowledge of recent developments in LoL is incomplete from the very first post, over all my assumptions on the current state of affairs have generally been largely correct and instead of supplying any information to the contrary all you can manage is to hurl the insults of a fan boy who's fan boy feelings are feeling butt hurting.Kaelik wrote:Once again you colossal fucking retard. No one cares about your personal forum arguments from 4 fucking years ago.PhoneLobster wrote:edit: also as for "not knowing what you were talking about with maps" it's odd that you single out the Volcanoe map as not needed because the tiny ARAM map totally had 1v1 and 2v2 covered. What with the Volcano map as originally promised was supposed to be an extra giant map for huge sprawling 6v6 game play.
No, to reiterate, your assumptions have been repeatedly completely wrong over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over. And I have supplied endless information to the contrary, all of which directly and flatly contradicts your stupid assumption, as have others. And each and every time you have responded with "But my ignorance means that it doesn't matter that I was wrong." Only to turn around and lie about the exact thing you were just proved wrong about in the very next post.PhoneLobster wrote:So to reiterate. While I have fully admitted my knowledge of recent developments in LoL is incomplete from the very first post, over all my assumptions on the current state of affairs have generally been largely correct and instead of supplying any information to the contrary
No, then I was completely and totally correct about the thing I was talking about, which is the cancelling of the volcano map that they recently cancelled, and the fact that they also did other things in 2010 is completely irrelevant to the thing I am talking about, which has always been LoL in 2014, and not LoL in 2010.PhoneLobster wrote:Then, when you get caught out being utterly embarrassingly wrong talking about events from a period YOU apparently don't know anything about your response is "fuck you I was er... talking about some OTHER cancelled map yeah sure, all along, yep, totally".
That sentence not.AndreiChekov wrote:kaelik, you said you look at champion design, but you don't play Dota?
The design is way better. Heroes have abilities are not wet noodles.
All of those are abilities that exist in LoL. I'm really not sure what you think is so great about that ability. And once again, champion design is about how the abilities combine to create a whole, not one ability.AndreiChekov wrote:That makes your abilities count more, and is not an ability that happens in lol
Yes so? You can build tanky in LoL and it does matter. My point is that when you call something a wet noodle you are just saying you want things further towards one extreme or the other.AndreiChekov wrote:Also, in Dota 2 you can build tanky, and it does matter. I built an assault cuirass and a heart of turasque, and I was tanking tower hits...
Then you should learn how to play Dota 2, because snowballing is way the fuck easier when you can deny creeps, which baits the enemy out from tower because lane freezing is easier.AndreiChekov wrote:The only complaint I have about Dota 2 is how hard snowballing is.
I don't see how any of that synergizes to create a better designed champion than any LoL champion.AndreiChekov wrote:LEgion commander has an AOE that deals more damage and gives her move speed based on the number of enemies hit
Her w makes an ally attack faster and regen
Her e gives her a chance to counter attack and she gets bonus lifesteal on that hit.
Her ult forces her and an enemy to auto attack for a few seconds. If either dies in that time, the winner gets +10 attack. (which is equivalent to +30 in Lol)
And do you get how that has absolutely nothing to do with champion design and everything to do with pace, and that moreover that is a clearly just a scale and not an issue of better in any way.AndreiChekov wrote:The wet noodle thing is that I would rather have champions do more damage to each other so that the gameplay is less about trading and more about killing.
If you think freezing lanes and denying cs isn't that important then you are never going to be good at any Moba but maybe Heroes of the Storm.AndreiChekov wrote:If a player gets one kill, and you aren't careful afterwards, they get a huge advantage. Denying is actually not a totally big deal. There are two levels of play, and if you are playing competitively then, yes deny deny deny, but if you aren't, then it doesn't matter because most people don't care that much.
I know I'm pretty bad at DOTA 2, but I'm much better at it than Lol because the game makes more sense. And abilites count more.
So you think not shit matchmaking is not letting all the Diamonds have perma Bronze smurfs. to fuck your ass every day.AndreiChekov wrote:That is not what I said. I said that you can play either way. If you find the game fun, you can freeze your rating for matches where people don't care much because you don't, and so you don't advance. If you want to do the denying and lane freezing, and denying towers, and suicide so you don't feed, and all that, then you will be better. But you don't have to because the match making system is not complete shit.
You just finished praising the matchmaking system that lets you permanently hang out with bronzes who don't know how to freeze a lane. If the matchmaking does that, it can only be because 1) You are really bad and you lose as many games as you win. 2) As you stated, it lets you freeze your ranking so that you don't actually play against people who are as good as you and instead you get to beat up on people not as good.AndreiChekov wrote:Their ranking goes up and yours goes down, or stays the same. You have a few bad games and mostly good games.
I don't consider a loss a bad game. I consider a evenly matched game a good game.Kaelik wrote:You just finished praising the matchmaking system that lets you permanently hang out with bronzes who don't know how to freeze a lane. If the matchmaking does that, it can only be because 1) You are really bad and you lose as many games as you win. 2) As you stated, it lets you freeze your ranking so that you don't actually play against people who are as good as you and instead you get to beat up on people not as good.AndreiChekov wrote:Their ranking goes up and yours goes down, or stays the same. You have a few bad games and mostly good games.
That is it. Pick one of those. Either you have the same matchmaking as LoL, or you have a system that makes it easier to smurf and only play baddies.
So Dota has shitty champ design. Okay. Let me explain, that "Duel" where they auto attack? That is not a Duel, that is a taunt. Duels do not involve other people attacking.Because it is all about her Ulty. Her q closes the gap.
Her w makes an ally do more damage to win that duel, because allies can help
Her e gives her lifesteal to win those duels
Her ult is the duel, and each ult makes the next one easier.
that is synergy. Every Dota 2 hero (that I have played) has that sort of synergy.
No I mean really. Do you understand what a Duel is. Try this test, which of these is a duel:AndreiChekov wrote:It is a duel because your champion is taunted also.
There are over 100 champs. If you are just going to pick ones until you kit on a badly designed one this is a waste of time and I can just spoil you that the answer is Sion. PS, Sion is on the rework list for precisely this reason.AndreiChekov wrote:Can you explain warwick to me then? how is any of that synergy? He just has random abilities.
So.... How is that better champ design than Vayne, Varus, Sivir, Lucian, Jinx, Cait, whatever? I mean, for god sakes, that is literally just an AD Teemo with dodge replacing move speed and melee sometimes.AndreiChekov wrote:How about Templar Assassin
So, she gets extra damage. Can gank if she is in the right place with w, and her e lets her farm mid really well. Ulty ensures no enemy leaves alive.
Well first off, you are absolutely wrong about Jinx being used primarily as a noob stomper. Secondly, anyone can use any champ as a noob stomper if they are stomping noobs. I didn't actually claim Jinx is well designed, because I don't have strong opinions about ADC champ design because I do that the least. I just pointed out that her ult is a better fit for scaling AD champ because it requires weird tough skill shots to get that AD instead of just trying to set up a gangbang.AndreiChekov wrote:Also, Jinx is really bad design because she is predominantly played at lower levels as a noob stomper sort of like the old xin zhao.
1) Who fucking gives a shit. This isn't Dota vs LoL. I specifically said the reason I play fucking LoL is the champ design. Anything that is not Champ design is completely fucking irrelevant. Please stop bringing it up. If you want to make a thread about how Dota is better than LoL make that thread.AndreiChekov wrote:Another thing that Dota has that is better
AndreiChekov, I strongly recommend that you reconsider what you're doing. Unless of course you actually like LoL better than Dota and are a sockpuppet or something. I mean, my favorite game is Dota 2, and I have a couple thousand hours of it played. I have no idea how much Dota 1 I played, but it was a lot - multiple thousands of hours at least. Your arguments for Dota are embarrassingly bad.Nietzsche wrote:The most perfidious way of harming a cause consists of defending it deliberately with faulty arguments.
Since dota explicitly isn't using Elo it is not the same.Kaelik wrote:1) Dota II has a fucking identical matchmaking system to LoL, probably because it directly copied LoL.
Except that Legion Commander duels force both people to fight each other without the benefit of many items and passives, evoking the idea of a "fair" fight. While Poppy's ult incentivizes you duel the person you aren't intending to man up on so that the guy that you are on top of can't do anything to you. How does one constitute better design again?So Dota has shitty champ design. Okay. Let me explain, that "Duel" where they auto attack? That is not a Duel, that is a taunt. Duels do not involve other people attacking.
Poppy has a Duel Ult in LoL, it makes it so no one can deal damage to her, so that she can go fight that person. That person can still use abilities on her, and technically other people can still help Poppy, so it is not a perfect duel, but it is more a duel than the taunt you described.
The taunt hero in dota is Axe. Axe has a chance to spin and deal physical damage to everything around him every time an attack command is issued on him, he also has an AoE taunt to force people to attack him and gives him 50 armor, for reference a powerful armor item gives 15-20. He has a dot that slows the target and buffs his speed which lasts for a long time unless the target gets a last hit or a deny. His ult straight up kills anyone below a certain hp threshold and when it does he buffs everyone in a large AoE's move and attack speed for a pretty long time. Axe is designed for force enemies to be more aggressive and allow for more aggression from his team, which fits his flavor as a homicidal soldier. He is typically a midgame initiator for his team, and he can bully very well in the laning phase.Let me describe lols taunt champion. Rammus. Rammus has a Taunt that is not his ult. His Passive is that his AD increases with armor. His other abilities are rolling into a ball to get somewhere fast and doing damage and a knock up on arrival, and an buff that increases his armor and MR for a short time and deals damage back to anyone who deals damage to him based on the pre-armor numbers. His ult is a relatively long duration AoE damage aura around himself.
Dual is a big piece of cc that takes an important hero out of the fight and incentivizes you to look for pick offs. Second you get 18 damage from a level 16 duel win, and you feed that to the other guy if you lose, but to contrast with that you can buy an item that gives 300 damage. Since you don't play dota at all maybe you are not actually qualified to talk about the relevant strength of the hero design between the two games.Notice how that is way the fuck more tightly designed than "Uses Ult to get AD bonuses that break the RNG." Yes it isn't really and RNG, but the point is to get so much AD that you are unstoppable and win the game. And the way you do that is by taunting people and getting AD when they die mid taunt. That is not a very good design.
So you smoke crack? You are right, nothing says "fair fight" like declaring that the Rapier and Claymore fighter are going to have a fair duel where each party has one arm tied behind their back and the scoring is based on points.Akula wrote:Except that Legion Commander duels force both people to fight each other without the benefit of many items and passives, evoking the idea of a "fair" fight.
And you get three damage for a stack with Nasus. So fucking what, the point is that you get lots of stacks it adds up. Duel is a taunt that works like all taunts in that incentivies you to pick offs. It works slightly differently than all taunts in that you are less willing to use it as CC during a big teamfight because you might give them ad instead, but it is still just a taunt that adds AD for no reason.Akula wrote:Dual is a big piece of cc that takes an important hero out of the fight and incentivizes you to look for pick offs. Second you get 18 damage from a level 16 duel win, and you feed that to the other guy if you lose, but to contrast with that you can buy an item that gives 300 damage.
Since I'm not the one claiming people should switch game specifically because the champion design is so much better maybe the burden of proof isn't on me and if people bring up shitty champion design to try to convince me to switch to their game that is their fault?Akula wrote:Since you don't play dota at all maybe you are not actually qualified to talk about the relevant strength of the hero design between the two games.
Maybe you should try to figure out how League works before you talk about their champs. Mids might be more than 1/5th the champions, but sort of by their nature they can't be more than 1/5th the players in a game, and not even all that many mids fit that description. Saying "The two rolls that have the most standardization because their entire job is damage, mid and ad, usually have these things in common in an extremely vague way" is not a compelling endictement of samey champions, since it is the tops/jungle/supports that have the biggest room to deviate in what their specific abilities are.Akula wrote:maybe you like the the spamable nuke or buff + gapcloser + CC that many league heroes have as their kits.
That wooshing sound everyone just heard was the subtext flying over Kaelik's head. Yes Kaelik, the ability is never fair in practice, that is kinda the point, but the debuff is the same for both participants so the fight is "fair". Also you HoT and buff yourself by the way.Kaelik wrote:So you smoke crack? You are right, nothing says "fair fight" like declaring that the Rapier and Claymore fighter are going to have a fair duel where each party has one arm tied behind their back and the scoring is based on points.Akula wrote:Except that Legion Commander duels force both people to fight each other without the benefit of many items and passives, evoking the idea of a "fair" fight.
Declaring that neither party gets to use the things you don't use is literally the exact opposite of fair and exactly what people see as not fair. And for fucks sake, the part where you "duel" someone by casting an attack speed on other people and having them kill them is literally the furthest thing you could ever get from a fair fight in the mind of any sentient being that has ever existed.
Late game scaling is tricky, games don't go to infinite time so in practice a Medusa will still probably outscale an LC unless the LC is getting a duel kill literally off cooldown assuming things drag out into the late game.Kaelik wrote:What the ability evokes is the idea that you should taunt one guy in a pick, and have your team murder him, and then for no reason at all randomly get some AD for it so that you can late game outscale everyone with enough taunts.
This is the whole not playing dota thing popping up again, an LC that won't duel is not going to have much of an impact in teamfights. You have to risk losing the duel sometimes to take advantage of a 4+second taunt that disables passives like evasion and crit.Kaelik wrote:And you get three damage for a stack with Nasus. So fucking what, the point is that you get lots of stacks it adds up. Duel is a taunt that works like all taunts in that incentivies you to pick offs. It works slightly differently than all taunts in that you are less willing to use it as CC during a big teamfight because you might give them ad instead, but it is still just a taunt that adds AD for no reason.
That isn't what you are doing, this:Kaelik wrote:Since I'm not the one claiming people should switch game specifically because the champion design is so much better maybe the burden of proof isn't on me and if people bring up shitty champion design to try to convince me to switch to their game that is their fault?
Is a positive statement that requires proof, and when you say this:Kaelik before wrote:So Dota has shitty champ design.
The implications is not that you are saying, "I find your arguments that Dota has better design unconvincing" but instead that you are saying, "Dota has bad design, and League of Legends has better design than dota." Both of which require proof. So yeah, the burden of proof is, in fact, on you.Kaelik same post a little further on wrote:Notice how that is way the fuck more tightly designed than "Uses Ult to get AD bonuses that break the RNG."
This post is basically just you being super ignorant about dota and projecting your ignorance onto others. Unlike your 0 games played of Dota, I have played hundreds of hours of LoL. Lets see how many champs fit my throw away line: Irelia, Rammus, Udyr, Lee Sin, Shen, Darius, Blitzcrank, Xin Shao, Leona, Tryndamere, Shaco, Pantheon, Renekton, Nautilus, Wu Kong, Warwick, Fizz, Jax, Maokai, Shyvanna, Nidalee, Diana, Ammumu, Alistar, Akali, Nocture, Riven, Ahri, Cait, Corki, Elise, Evelynn, Ezreal, Fiddlesticks, Fiora, Gragas, Graves, Hecarim, Jarvin, Jayce, Kassadin, Katarina, Kennen, Kha'zix, LeBlanc, Lissandra, Olaf, Orianna, Poppy, Rengar, Sejuani, Skarner, Talon, Tristanna, Twisted Fate, Urgot, Vayne, Valdimere, Ziggs, Aatrox, Zed, Vi, Yasou, Zac, Thresh, Quinn, Braum, and Malphite. So like 70+ Champs? Dude the lack of diversity among LoL champs is an acknowledged joke in the League of Legends community. Because of the hyper rigid and riot enforced eurolane meta, champs need to have certain skills to be considered not shit. But just to repeat myself: it doesn't matter if lots of league heroes are similar, if you like that then good for you, I just reject the idea that either of the games is explicitly, objectively, better designed than the other.Kaelik wrote:Maybe you should try to figure out how League works before you talk about their champs. Mids might be more than 1/5th the champions, but sort of by their nature they can't be more than 1/5th the players in a game, and not even all that many mids fit that description. Saying "The two rolls that have the most standardization because their entire job is damage, mid and ad, usually have these things in common in an extremely vague way" is not a compelling endictement of samey champions, since it is the tops/jungle/supports that have the biggest room to deviate in what their specific abilities are.
I'm just going to leave these two sentences because the first one is explaining how your point was that it isn't supposed to be fair, and your second one is you then declaring that it totally is fair again.Akula wrote:That wooshing sound everyone just heard was the subtext flying over Kaelik's head. Yes Kaelik, the ability is never fair in practice, that is kinda the point, but the debuff is the same for both participants so the fight is "fair".
Here let me summarize. A duel is between two people. So an ability that excludes any number of people from a fight, even one, it actually infinitly more duel like than an ability that excludes no one. And by the way, that isn't the only way to use Poppy's ult, so a non zero number of times Poppies ult will be used to exclude someone from a fight, as opposed to NEVER EVER DUEL COMMANDER who will never ever use the ability to exclude someone from a fight.Akula wrote:I'm still waiting for you to explain why you think pointing at someone twenty feet away and yelling, "IT'S TIME TO D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-DUEL!" then turning around and punching the guy next to you in the dick is a better mechanical representation of a duel.
No, this is the you not being able to read thing popping up again. I said less likely than a taunt that didn't risk giving AD to the other team. Because there exist a non zero number of situations you would not use this ult in a teamfight, and there exist zero situations that you would use this ability but wouldn't use a taunt that didn't give AD to the enemy. Less Likely is not Unlikely.Akula wrote:This is the whole not playing dota thing popping up again, an LC that won't duel is not going to have much of an impact in teamfights. You have to risk losing the duel sometimes to take advantage of a 4+second taunt that disables passives like evasion and crit.
You are right. There is no possible way that the implication of what I said could be that I found his arguments unconvincing.Akula wrote:That isn't what you are doing, this:Kaelik wrote:Since I'm not the one claiming people should switch game specifically because the champion design is so much better maybe the burden of proof isn't on me and if people bring up shitty champion design to try to convince me to switch to their game that is their fault?Is a positive statement that requires proof, and when you say this:Kaelik before wrote:So Dota has shitty champ design.The implications is not that you are saying, "I find your arguments that Dota has better design unconvincing" but instead that you are saying, "Dota has bad design, and League of Legends has better design than dota." Both of which require proof.Kaelik same post a little further on wrote:Notice how that is way the fuck more tightly designed than "Uses Ult to get AD bonuses that break the RNG."
And then when I asked what he meant he specifically brought up Legion Commander as his argument for better champion design, and then specifically went over Legion Commander's abilities, and then I specifically responded by quoting his arguments about how Legion commander was a better designed champion, and then I proceeded to make comments specifically addressing his specific arguments for how Legion Commander was a champion that demonstrated better design.kaelik, you said you look at champion design, but you don't play Dota?
The design is way better.
No it isn't. You completely and utterly worthless dickbag. No it isn't.Akula wrote:So yeah, the burden of proof is, in fact, on you.
Yes yes, you have a big dick. Your dick is huge. We get it.Akula wrote:This post is basically just you being super ignorant about dota and projecting your ignorance onto others. Unlike your 0 games played of Dota, I have played hundreds of hours of LoL.
Sure, but first let's actually fucking quote your actual fucking line again, and then I'll just delete everyone who doesn't have one of the three things you said everyone has.Akula wrote:Lets see how many champs fit my throw away line:
Udyr, Darius, Shaco, Pantheon, Renekton, Fizz, Jax, Maokai, Riven, Cait, Elise, Graves, Hecarim, Jayce, Kassadin, Kennen, Kha'zix, LeBlanc, Lissandra, Poppy, Sejuani, Skarner, Talon, Vayne, Ziggs, Aatrox, Zed, Vi, Yasou, Zac, Thresh, Braum.Your actual statement wrote:spamable nuke or buff + gapcloser + CC