Cheese Updates, 3.5

[User3]

With Pun Pun, the Hivemaster, Nanobots, etc. - these builds are pale in comparison to the character optimizer builds over at Wotc's board lately. there is some amazing infinite loop craziness over there as of late.

[erik]

Infinite loops aren't amazing, and in fact defeat the purpose of continued min-maxing. Once you hit infinite, there isn't anything left to do. So once it is done once, all the other times are pointless.

That said, I figure this thread to be more about discussing different ways to cheese (on a variety of levels, least importantly, the infinite loops), and a lot less about specific builds.

[fbmf]

Assuming Core-Only Material, can you guys run me through 20 levels of Rogue, or give some suggestions? Thanks.

EDIT: I am especially interested in Feats and Magic Items.

Game On,
fbmf

[Username17]

I think I can manage up to tenth before there comes to be too many choices. First off, you want to consider Race. Your ideal race for Rogue is Neraph, Deep Halfling, Gray Elf, or Dwarf. Take your pick really. Human can do alright, but you really benefit from being one of those other ones.

Then you want to consider stat alotment. Intelligence is your number 1 priority. Followed by Dexterity. Then Constitution. Then other stats in no particular order.

Now there are a couple of ways to go with Rogues (excluding things involving abusing Leadership or the DMG II Apprenticeship Rules):

1. Point Blank Shot
3. Precise Shot
6. Quick Draw
9. Flick of the Wrist

Or...

1. Combat Reflexes
3. Dodge
6. Mobility
9. Elusive Target

Or...

1. Educated
3. Quick Reconoiter
6. Improved Unarmed Strike
9. Improved Grapple

Or...
1. Combat Reflexes
3. Deft Opportunist
6. Hold the Line
9. Expert Tactician

Or...
1. Improved Initiative
3. Danger Sense
6. Death Blow
9. Combat Reflexes

Or...
1. Versatile
3. Mounted Combat
6. Mounted Archery
9. Improved Mounted Archery

In terms of magic items, you pretty much want to cash out everything you own for a Ring of Blink at 8th level. That item is sweet, and makes all of your attacks sneak attacks forever.

At 10th level, you get a Rogue Bonus. The standard choice is Skill Mastery, but you can also take a feat. Good choices are:

[*] Perfect Multiweapon Fighting
[*] Gape of the Serpent
[*] Uncanny Accuracy
[*] Storm of Throws
[*] Spellcasting Harrier
[*] Permanent Emanation: Antimagic Field

None of those are especially game breaking, but they synergize nicely with some of those setups.

-Username17

[User3]

Frank, I'm looking at Savage Species's Gape of the Serpent feat and I'm just not seeing it. It takes 3 rounds to use and you've to win three opposed grapple checks. Now I get that at 10th level you've an enlarge on you or whatever so you can swallow bigger foes (prey?) but still most of those Large monsters are gonna beat the tar out of the rogue strength-wise.

What's the trick? Besides it just being funny as hell?

[Username17]

Mostly it's just funny as hell. However, if you want to really break it, you can. Escaping from being swallowed is on a creature by creature basis. While every creature who has Swallow Whole has a listed method of escape, your rogue does not. Further, there's nothing actually requiring you to perform a swallow action or anything - the eating is a bonus as long as you maintain your grapple.

So you can grab and pin on the first round, and then the next round you can pin the target again, and then you've eaten them. Remember that "after the second grapple check" really means "the end of the first frickin round" because you can make a grab check and a pin check in the first round. So you grab and pin the guy, then the next round you maintain the pin, and then they've been eaten and can't escape.

Then it just becomes a matter of abusing strength bonuses. I suggest becoming a Paragon Firbolg, but I would understand if you felt that was distasteful.

-Username17

[Daiba]

1133556136[/unixtime]]At 10th level, you get a Rogue Bonus. The standard choice is Skill Mastery, but you can also take a feat. Good choices are:

[*] Perfect Multiweapon Fighting
[*] Gape of the Serpent
[*] Uncanny Accuracy
[*] Storm of Throws
[*] Spellcasting Harrier
[*] Permanent Emanation: Antimagic Field

What's the rationalization for being able to take Epic feats with the rogue bonus feat? I know you don't have to meet the prerequisites, but my understanding was that the reason non-epic characters can't take [Epic] feats had nothing to do with prerequisites, but rather some vague statement that they're not "available" unless you're level 21 or higher. If not, what's to stop a non-epic character from taking Great [pick a stat] a bunch of times? It's significantly better than Spell-focus.

[Username17]

The Paragon Mind Flayer has bonus feats, 8 hit dice, and Epic Feats selected. So oviously you can select Epic Feats as Bonus Feats pre-epic - there's an actual example of that being done.

-Username17

[MrWaeseL]

Actually,the weird logic is that you can select epic feats at 21 ECL and beyond, but only get epic BAB, saves and bonus feats at 21 HD.

Presumably, the Paragon Mind Flayer has an ECL of greater than 21.

[Lago_AM3P]

This is an unusual request, I know.

But basically, I'm trying to simulate a superhero I have in mind using D&D rules.

Here's what this character does:

- Uses as few levels as possible.
- Abilities are preferable to equipment; the character doesn't use armor.
- Is able to, with pressure point and life force manipulation, heal wounds, disease, mental distress, and mind control and inflict it at his option.
- Is able to kick ass in unarmed combat. I mean a lot of ass. Stunning, being people midair God of War style, getting off a lot of attacks, whatever.
- Has lots of stealth in their corner pocket.
- Uses light and shadow extensively in their schtick--illusion projection, shadow creation, whatever.
- Does not polymorph.
- Is able to move very, very fast without being able to fly.
- Preferably has an angel/deva theme, but not required. No wings plz.

This is a really weird request and is very hard to do, I know. But I would appreciate it anyways.

[Neeek]

Could either of the "mantle" using classes from Complete Psionic help? The Ardent with the Light and Darkness, Repose, and Life mantles might work.

[Username17]

1145089958[/unixtime]]This is an unusual request, I know.

But basically, I'm trying to simulate a superhero I have in mind using D&D rules.

Superheroes are almost always Wizards, Clerics, or Druids.

Here's what this character does:

- Uses as few levels as possible.
- Abilities are preferable to equipment; the character doesn't use armor.

That strongly suggests Wizard or Druid. Most of the cool Cleric stuff has to do with boosting Equipment.

- Is able to, with pressure point and life force manipulation, heal wounds, disease, mental distress, and mind control and inflict it at his option.

That sounds like Wizard. Though you're going to have to minor creation or lesser planar binding crap to heal wounds.

- Is able to kick ass in unarmed combat. I mean a lot of ass. Stunning, being people midair God of War style, getting off a lot of attacks, whatever.

Touch spells are quite lethal. Shivering Touch will kill Dragons in one hit.

- Has lots of stealth in their corner pocket.

With Able Learner you can get as much Stealth skills as you want. Pull some of the Shadow Garb spells and get substantial enough bonuses to be Sneaky McSneak Sneak.

- Uses light and shadow extensively in their schtick--illusion projection, shadow creation, whatever.

That's all on the Wizard and Druid list. Most of the iconics are Wizard spells.

-

Does not polymorph.

Well, that eliminates the Druid. Polymorphing, of course, is a raw powerup no matter who or what you are. Even if you max your strength out in every possible wa, it'll still get bigger if you get transformed into a Firbolg. So refusing to shapechange is a voluntary self-nerf. Make sure your DM understands that.

- Is able to move very, very fast without being able to fly.

Being able to fly massively increases your speed, both by resetting your base speed, and by allowing you to stack several additional bullshit effects onto your movement. The 3.5 rules make it extremely difficult to have a Land Speed over 100 feet or so (unless you're mounted, but that seems to not be the plan either). As such, you're probably going to end up using combat teleportation, is that acceptable?

- Preferably has an angel/deva theme, but not required. No wings plz.

How about having a Six Demon Bag, that has six demons in it? planar binding seems to be part and parcel of this build, so the angels and demons really are just right there to be had.

This is a really weird request and is very hard to do, I know. But I would appreciate it anyways.

OK, our target level is 9th, because that's the lowest level you can bind angels and demons to perform your disease removal tasks.

Key Feats:
Able Learner

Key Spells:
1st level:
Accelerated Movement (Spell Compendium)
Cutting Hand (Spell Compendium)
Silent Image
2nd level:
Blaeweave (Spell Compendium)
Phantasmal Assailants (SC) (This spell is Knights of the round)
Wraithstrike (Spell Compendium)
3rd level:
Blacklight
Magic Circle Against Evil
Greater Mage Armor (Spell Compendium)
Shivering Touch (It's Cold Outside)

4th level:
Charm Monster
Minor Creation

5th level:
Greater Dimension Door (SC)
Lesser Planar Binding
Persistant Image

Equipment of Note:
+1 Bracers of Hasting (A&EG + DotF)

And if you want, you can scam your way to persistancing some of these bonuses.

-Username17

[Oberoni]

Superheroes! Pshaw, that's Psionics all the way.

1. - Is able to, with pressure point and life force manipulation, heal wounds, disease, mental distress, and mind control and inflict it at his option. The powers Body Adjustment and Body Purification (off the general list) heal wounds and ability damage. Empathic Transfer (off the Egoist list) lets you heal wounds by taking the damage away from others and giving it to yourself (which you can of course heal with Body Adjustment). Aura Alteration (a 6th level power) lets you remove all sorts of mental conditions. Dispel Psionics will do the same (assuming your DM plays with psionics/magic transparency, which he should, if he doesn't like headaches).

As for inflicting all those conditions, there's a few powers that do weird stuff with damage. One of the roughest, Empathic Transfer, Hostile (a 3rd level Telepath power) lets you transfer a huge amount of damage from yourself to one or more nearby creatures. If you want to inflict mental distress, good choices are Mind Thrust (for raw damage, but beware, it's all-or-nothing) and Ego Whip (tons of Charisma damage).

2. - Is able to kick ass in unarmed combat. I mean a lot of ass. Stunning, being people midair God of War style, getting off a lot of attacks, whatever. Well, let's see. For raw damage, Dissipating Touch is nice. Just cast it before any combat, and then, when the battle begins, waltz in and smack your opponent--your first hit will do a huge amount of damage, since you're holding a touch "spell." If you don't mind growing claws, Claws of the Beast (1st level Psychic Warrior power) is solid. You get two claw attacks, and the more power points you spend, the more damage you do per hit. If you don't want claws, maybe chat with your DM to tweak the power slightly, I dunno. LordShade's [counturl=34]The King of Smack (link)[/counturl] shows those claws used to their fullest potential.

As for stunning, I dunno. There's a few powers that daze or stun one or more creatures nearby, but not as part of an attack, like the Monk's Stunning Fist (at least, that I know of).

3. - Has lots of stealth in their corner pocket. The 1st level Egoist Power Chameleon grants +10 to hide checks. Other than that, I dunno. Outside the basics (i.e. items that give boosts to Hide and Move Silently), you could take your first level as Rogue, I guess, to get those as class skills. Psions are Intelligence-based "casters," so you should have at least enough skill points to be stealthy, if it's your main desire, skill-wise.

4. - Uses light and shadow extensively in their schtick--illusion projection, shadow creation, whatever. If you just need these as a side-effect of doing everything else, that's already covered. Many powers have displays, and many displays are Visual, which means that you get neat glowing eyes and colors dancing around you for a second when you use some powers. Other than that, a lot of energy attacks are bright and flashy. As for illusions, Psions are (oddly) pretty bad at these. One of the highlights (due to lack of competition) is False Sensory Input, a 3rd level Telepath power. You don't even really create an illusion, so much as jack into into one or more creature's senses directly and change the information they receive (which means you can make 'illusions' that not even True Seeing can penetrate). I'm not going to lie, though, Wizards are way, way better at illusions than Psions are.

4. - Is able to move very, very fast without being able to fly. No flight? Well, if you insist. Skate increases someone's land speed by 15 feet. Hustle, a third level Egoist power, gives you an extra move action (!) for the round. Burst, a 1st level Nomad power, increases your movement speed by 10 feet for a round, so it pretty much sucks, but it exists. Temporal Acceleration is a crazy high-level power that gives you at least 1 extra full round's worth of actions, and even more if you spend more power points. (It's pretty much Time Stop.)

5. - Preferably has an angel/deva theme, but not required. No wings plz. You've got a few options, I guess. Outside of the obvious ones (like being an Aasimar, using a Hat of Disguise to make yourself looks all angelic), you could be an Elan. They're dudes that are pretty much made of psychic energy, and get a few neat abilities because of it. Ummmm...I guess that's not really angelic, but it's exotic. So there.

As a psion, you of course have other neat abilities as well. Psions (particularly Egoists) have lots of nice buffs. You can gain lots of damage reduction, AC bonuses, and even temporary HP pretty easily. You'll find several other good boosts on pages 124 and 125 of Complete Psionics--there's several ways to temporarily boost your attack and damage rolls, as well as boost your saving throws and AC even more. If you can gain access to the second level Psychic Warrior power Lion's charge, not only can you make a full attack at the end of a charge, but you can boost the damage each attack does as well.

Now, you probably noticed that some of these powers come from different lists. How do you get them all? It's not too hard. The feat Expanded Knowledge lets you scoop up an extra power, even if it's not on your list. (This means, of course, you could even grab some Psychic Warrior powers as a psion, or vice versa). Sure, you have to burn some feats, but you're a Psion, you get lots of feats.

Option 2 is to be an Erudite, a Psion variant from Dragon 319 that can learn powers from any psionic discipline. They have some more restrictions, as well, but overall they're a sweet class. I hear they have a revamped version in the recently released Complete Psionic.

Other general advice I can give you is to take feats like Overchannel (take damage to temporarily boost your manifester level! A REALLY good deal) and Quicken Power (Psions Quicken stuff way easier than other classes). Don't forget to grab the 4th level power Psychic Reformation--that's the one that lets you spend XP to re-make all the decisions of one or more levels you (or someone else) has required. That means that if you or one of your buddies needs a really obscure power, spell, skill, or feat, you just need 10 minutes and some XP to get it. Ridiculously good, perhaps overpowered.

[Neeek]

As an Ardent(Complete Psi), you get 3 "mantles"(basically Psionic Domains) by level 2, then another at 5th, 10th, and 15th. You can also get them by taking a couple feats(one for the list, and another from the granted power, which you don't need.) If you take Good, Natural World, Life, Destruction, Mental Power, Freedom, Pain and Suffering, and Physical Power(all of which is actually doable by 6th level, though it also uses all of your feats as a human), you can actually get most of the powers Obi listed, plus the ability to gain the Celestial template(and the Half-Celestial Template later). You also get access to some fairly decent stat boosting powers. It would probably be better than going Psion for this sort of thing, as you get a better BAB and hit die.

[User3]

There's a lot of hub-bub about the new Ardent class in the CPsi book.

Lots of min-maxers are totally digging it.

[User3]

Is anyone aware of any full or nearly full divine caster PrC out there that hands out generic bonus feats?

C'mon, daddy needs his medicine...

[User3]

Also, anything that hands out Summon Nature's Ally II is kosher, too.

[Book]

1147621950[/unixtime]]Is anyone aware of any full or nearly full divine caster PrC out there that hands out generic bonus feats?

C'mon, daddy needs his medicine...

Here you go, Chief.

[counturl=38]Linkee[/counturl]

The Master Harper PrC is FR-specific - but gives out 3 bonus generic feats within 10 levels. But with some flavor text tweakage, you can easily port it to your home campaign world.

Unfortunately, the pre-req.'s are a bit on the ouchee side. But if you minmaxify & wrangle your baseline classes and preceding PrC's a bit, you should be all right.

[Save_versus_Stupid]

Hello, citizens of the den. I found your page through a search engine looking for something D&D related, i'm sure.

After a brief exchange with one of your more "charismatic" posters, I was directed to simply ask for help in the open.

My ultimate goal is to build a functioning magic rogue, with emphasis on being rogue with some dip into magic. Whether it's through items, or assassin levels i'm fine with either. I would actually prefer Assassin because it comfortably keeps you progressing while offering up the spells I would have picked through multi-classing anyways. Plus the name rocks, and that's more important than being able to help the party.

In any event, i'm new to 3.5, but not D&D so it's a little slow going. It took me probably a week to research and build a gish.

I'm going to be dual wielding, with all the stupid deadly precision/barbed dagger nonsense so sneak attack is a high priority. More specifically, I got the go ahead from the GM to play a gimped "half" Drow (no level adjustment, no spell resistance or spell like abilities - and I keep the light penalty). Just for flavor, as i'm eating a feat for daylight adaptation.

I've looked at something like wizard/rogue/daggerspell mage but after a while it hit me that I don't need to be casting personal buffs through weapons so that seems counter intuitive for that. And i'm certainly not looking to be a fireball throwing rogue, because that's all kinds of dumb.

So what do you have for me? I'm all ears.

Edit - Also, more information would probably help. I don't have my first level feat due to daylight adaptation and i'm starting at 6th level so whatever starting gold that is. 12k I believe. I have access to all the 3.5 splat books and core material for character creation purposes.

[User3]

Mmm, eating that feat is going to suck. I'd advise not doing it.

That being said, if you didn't eat that feat you could go rogue 5, then Dragon Devotee 4, then Daggerspell Mage 6(pick up Practiced Spellcaster at 9th to qualify), then Arcane Trickster. By 20th level, you can have a sneak of +9d6 and the casting of an 11th level Sorcerer(with a caster level of 16).

Basically, at 7th level you get a level of Sorcerer casting, meaning you can use wands. Get a spell storing weapon, some decent wands, and race towards a Ring of Blinking. Mithral bucklers have no ASF, and there are several enhancements that reduce ASF on armors(and Dragon Devotee casts 0th and 1st level spells with no ASF at 3rd level).

With the claws from Dragon devotee, you can use them as extra -5 attacks on top of your two weapon fighting if you invest in weapons that don't use hands, like armor spikes or raptorian foot spikes.

Use swift action spells like Critical Strike and Wraithstrike. Wraithstrike is the bee's knees.

[User3]

If you are willing to be an even wierder character, you can go Rogue, then Assasin, then take a level of Bard to get a level of Sublime Chord, the finish with levels in Arcane Trickster. That gets you less sneak and fewer attacks, but better spells.

[User3]

Damn, I forgot on the first build that Dragon Devotee requires a BAB of +5, and at 5th level you have +3.

[Username17]

See if you can be a "Lesser Drow" from page 190 of the Player's Guide ot Feyrun. You get some dumb spells and and a bonus to Will saves and Darkvision vs. a normal Elf, and you are saddled with Light Sensitivity and crappier bonus weapons. Relatively balanced actually.

The big thing that kicks you in the nuts vs. a Deep Halfling or Human is that your Favored Class is Wizard. So you aren't going to be making a multiclass build at all.

---

As for Daylight Adaption, don't bother. Seriously, it's just a -1 penalty during the day when topside. If you take Weapon Finesse you won't even notice that you have that penalty.

---

Option 1: The Rogue.

Assign Attribute Rolls: Int, Con, Dex, Cha, Str, Wis.

At 6th level you will be: Rogue 6.

Your Feats will be:

Apprentice (Magician Training) -> Now upgraded to Mentor
Two Weapon Fighting
Quick Draw

Your key equipment will be:

Goggles of Darkvision
Circlet of Persuasion
Wand of sniper's eye.

With 9 ranks of UMD, a Circlet of Persuasion, your Apprrentice Bonus, and a Charisma bonus of +1, you're going to be running around with a +15 UMD check. It's no longer possible for you to experience backlash from a failed wand activation. So now you can just activate it every round that you happen to be over 60 feet away from your enemies in the dark, as you have farther darkvision than anyone else does.

Additional trciksy options will become available as you get more wands. Also you have an apprentice rogue, which basically gives you a built-in excuse to make half elves. W00+!

-Username17

[Book]

Not sure if you have the Unearthed Arcana book, but if you do, the generic class section (around pg. 77) has the Spellcaster core class.

Spellcaster 10 / Arcane Trickster 10

You get 20 spellcaster levels (9th level spells and you can chose from any spellcaster class).

Up to +8d6 SA dice or +14d6 SA dice if you are an Elf with the Otherworldly feat and the Polymorph Spell (Kelvezu form).

Chose the Wraithstrike and Heroics spells for melee dual-wielding craziness.

[Neeek]

He may need book references for all of this. Just a thought.