The Shadowrun Situation

[Ancient History]

AH is my read on Horizon even close to correct? Or is it just wishful thinking on my part

One of the problems with Horizon is that no one ever sat down and figured out what the fuck to do with them. If there was a big metaplot reveal that was supposed to happen later on, it died years ago. Even early brainstorming about the corporate structure never went anywhere.

Jen getting the contract to write L.A. was a surprise to everybody. This isn't to diss Jen or her writing, but she's not good at gritty ad she knows it. I wanted to kill Gary Kline from the very first, and they wouldn't let me, dammit.

for instance in Runner Havens, some of the settings - notably Seattle - was pretty lackluster.

Seattle suffered from many problems. For one, the primary authors (Jong Won Kim & myself) were essentially newbs. We were rough out of the bag, and we didn't get the word count we wanted to do Seattle proper justice (Kenson did, in Seattle 2072). Rob Boyle and Robyn King-Nitchke stepped in to write (or in Rob's case, re-write) sizable chunks. But mostly we were newbs, unused to writing RPGs in general or Shadowrun in particular to any length, and the end product shows that. If Rob hadn't been keeping a steady hand at the tiller, Seattle would have been sixty shades more fanboyish than it turned out to be. As it is, I think we did an okay job in the space available to us. Not perfect by any means, but not Bogota either.

In a world where every other corp is either in leagure with demons, bodysnatchers from another dimension, lovecraftian horrors, is run by a monster, or is run by a psychopath who considers genocide a career step upwards, that just seems stupid.

It's kinda funny, but my write-up for Mitsuhama had in it the observation that here at least was a corp run by humans, for humans, and they were still bastards. I liked that.

Horizon - at least, certain impressions of it - is the corp you get if megacorps actually bought into the belief that doing the right thing by your customers, employees, and environment is also the best thing for you. The Horizon adventurers weren't supposed to be "Horizon hires you" or "revealed here the secret of Horizon!" so much as "Horizon meant well, for a general idea of well, and they fucked up big time and wiped out a fucking village." That's seriously what a several of the ideas about Horizon were being thrown around about by the old hats, a simple case of metahuman error that costs lives, and it's Horizon's fault.

Because I like small, localized conflicts where you can identify the players and shoot them. Before all this War! nonsense, I was seriously campaigning for a small background national-corporate war...a Cod Wars IV between Gaeatronics and the Thule Protectorate over a geothermal power station out on some island near the arctic circle. That's like mercenary weekend getaway for shadowrunners in Seattle.

[hermit]

One of the problems with Horizon is that no one ever sat down and figured out what the fuck to do with them. If there was a big metaplot reveal that was supposed to happen later on, it died years ago. Even early brainstorming about the corporate structure never went anywhere.

Okay, that shows. It also is quite ... galling to read that in the light of my frequent demands that Horizon have any point. As is, it seems just like an authors' pet dropped into the setting and propped up by author favor. It seems that's kind of the right impression.

And yes, whoever wrote LA isn't very good at Shadowrun - it's a light hearted parody of Reality TV. Reality TV. The kind of thing you do not want to be caught in as a runner. Nanopaste will help you not at all if you face a corp SWAT because someone at corpsec is monitoring Runner!Spotlight!Bonanza!Feed!. The whole assumption is bonkers, and how Horizon is written up to be something cool and great and huggable is ... highly, highly annoying. Yeah, it could realistically happen. No, it does not fit well with the setting any more than introducing the Ewok as a playable race would.

Horizon - at least, certain impressions of it - is the corp you get if megacorps actually bought into the belief that doing the right thing by your customers, employees, and environment is also the best thing for you. The Horizon adventurers weren't supposed to be "Horizon hires you" or "revealed here the secret of Horizon!" so much as "Horizon meant well, for a general idea of well, and they fucked up big time and wiped out a fucking village."

So the big point would have been Horizon actually making a mistake? Hm. That's a bit ... lackluster, considering such things are more or less daily occurrences. Nothing against small scale plots, but this is just not what I'd have expected it to be (or what I was told it would be).

[Stahlseele]

The first run of the Berlin Book was the Hardcover Limited Edition right?
So it kinda makes sense for it to be a limited number. People are waiting for either regular Hardcover or Softcover Release right now, if i remember correctly.
I got my limited edition without even realizing it's a limited, because that was all that could be found anywhere at all . .

[Ancient History]

So the big point would have been Horizon actually making a mistake? Hm. That's a bit ... lackluster, considering such things are more or less daily occurrences. Nothing against small scale plots, but this is just not what I'd have expected it to be (or what I was told it would be).

Imagine a brain surgeon that has a stroke and muscle spasms in the middle of surgery. Except in this case, the "patient" would be an entire population and potentially included you. We were seriously talking Transmetropolitan i-pollen style artificially induced Alzheimer's and stuff, people going from fully functional metahuman beings to AIPS faster than you can say "Nerve Attenuation Syndrome" in your very best Henry Rollins impersonation. It's like Outbreak except with the Matrix. That was gonna be Horizon's "oops."

[hermit]

So the big point would have been Horizon actually making a mistake? Hm. That's a bit ... lackluster, considering such things are more or less daily occurrences. Nothing against small scale plots, but this is just not what I'd have expected it to be (or what I was told it would be).

Imagine a brain surgeon that has a stroke and muscle spasms in the middle of surgery. Except in this case, the "patient" would be an entire population and potentially included you. We were seriously talking Transmetropolitan i-pollen style artificially induced Alzheimer's and stuff, people going from fully functional metahuman beings to AIPS faster than you can say "Nerve Attenuation Syndrome" in your very best Henry Rollins impersonation. It's like Outbreak except with the Matrix. That was gonna be Horizon's "oops."

Aaaah. Yes, that flies far better than a village (which I took literally - they wanted to do some relief crap but screwed up and now a couple dozen villagers are dead because, I dunno, they had some rare allergy or something).

iPollen, NAS or other nasty side effects to their product (like the skillsoft update service) would be cool and potentially break Horizon's back, especially if they were covering it up. The morals being that the path to hell is paved in good intentions. Maybe the AI they foolishly asllied themselves with fucked them over, who knows.

Also, Cline needs to die. And actually, so does LA. Or at least it needs reexamination and sensicble change (AAS? You dig this wifi crazyness, don't you?).

[raben-aas]

Goingh back to the question of why High Magic Uberwereelves Can Do As They Please Because They A Friggin Awesome Books (or AWEBOOKS in short) sell better than playable, low-scale, gritty books (or gritbooks), the main question seems to be:

Who is actually PLAYING SR, and who is just BUYING SR.

In my opinion, if most buyers would actually play SR, gritbooks with a lot of Crunch and direct use at the gaming table would sell best.

Since AWEBOOKS seem to be selling better, one could theorize that the majority of SR buyers are "I liked the system when I was in highschool, and now that I don't have time to play anymore I like to read about the awesome godlike NPCs I knew back then and what they are up to now".

Just sayin.

[Username17]

I think it's actually the wrong takehome message. People like books with rules that their character can use. Street Magic and Augmentation sold well, Runner Havens did not. This isn't because Street Magic was more over the top than Runner Havens, but because Street Magic has fucking rules in it.

People do not normally check the playability of the rules for playing a free spirit before they decide whether or not to buy Runner's Companion. The rules are there, and then everyone who has been asking for rules to do that for the last 18 years goes out and buys the book. And only after taking it home and reading it carefully does the poor player realize that they have been sold an unplayable lump of coal. So putting out a book like Runner's Companion has the effect of getting people to buy it (because there are rules for doing things they want to do), and then getting people to quit the hobby (because the rules are shitty). A book like Runner Havens has the effect of people not buying it (because even if you want to play in Hong Kong, the format is only 40% relevant to your game), but then has no overall effect on the line because people didn't buy or read it.

So a book like Street Magic sells because it's a rule book, and then it expands the game because the rules are pretty good. It's important to understand that the book doesn't sell because the rules are good, it sells because it has rules for things that sound cool to people who have not read the book yet. People buy the book and then they read it in depth. Not the other way around.

It's why I thought we should have done The Monofilament Edge. Because people would have totally bought that book.

-Username17

[Fucks]

I got my limited edition without even realizing it's a limited, because that was all that could be found anywhere at all . .

Quelle surprise.

[Stahlseele]

I got my limited edition without even realizing it's a limited, because that was all that could be found anywhere at all . .

Quelle surprise. :rofl:

*le sigh* yes, one of the people on the german official shadowrun board actually had to tell me to check if there's a hand written number under one of the two covers somewhere . .

[Kot]

ED magic has it's edge over SR magic for one reason - it was fully understood. SR magic is more powerful, because you don't need to worry over tainted astral space (much), and cast only from Matrices.
Besides, show me a ressurecting spell in SR. Show me any kind of astral travel spell. Yes, they're on circles being equivalent of 3+ Initiate level, but still, ED magic has a lot of stuff SR doesn't. Just check out Ancient's 'advanced magic' stuff.

Th thing is, SR doesn't need magic as it was used in ED. In ED people used magical lighters, cooking pots, even chamber pots (yes, it was in the Throal sourcebook). They used magic instead of technology, developing a magical civilization. That would be redundant in SR. So, magic keeps crawling in on the top of the food chain (they all want power), and on the bottom of it (they need something to help them survive, if they can't afford the tech). All those people in the middle? They are the reason why magic is sill feared and unknown (and exaggerated in simflicks). They don't need it, they don't want it, don't understand it, and that all makes them fear it. Which closes the circle, baring them from using magic at all.

[Fucks]

I got my limited edition without even realizing it's a limited, because that was all that could be found anywhere at all . .

Quelle surprise.

*le sigh* yes, one of the people on the german official shadowrun board actually had to tell me to check if there's a hand written number under one of the two covers somewhere . .

You need other people's help? No surprise either.

[TheFlatline]

ED magic has it's edge over SR magic for one reason - it was fully understood. SR magic is more powerful, because you don't need to worry over tainted astral space (much), and cast only from Matrices.
Besides, show me a ressurecting spell in SR. Show me any kind of astral travel spell. Yes, they're on circles being equivalent of 3+ Initiate level, but still, ED magic has a lot of stuff SR doesn't. Just check out Ancient's 'advanced magic' stuff.

Th thing is, SR doesn't need magic as it was used in ED. In ED people used magical lighters, cooking pots, even chamber pots (yes, it was in the Throal sourcebook). They used magic instead of technology, developing a magical civilization. That would be redundant in SR. So, magic keeps crawling in on the top of the food chain (they all want power), and on the bottom of it (they need something to help them survive, if they can't afford the tech). All those people in the middle? They are the reason why magic is sill feared and unknown (and exaggerated in simflicks). They don't need it, they don't want it, don't understand it, and that all makes them fear it. Which closes the circle, baring them from using magic at all.

I suspect I'm in a distinct minority when it comes to Shadowrun.

I don't give a shit about Earthdawn and high magic and immortal elves.

There's a place for magic in SR, and that's part of what makes the game unique, but I just never cared for the magic half enough to get excited about it.

And I am pretty sure that puts me in the minority. People love the idea of fireballing a car for some reason. I've more or less come to accept that.

However, magic to me is a crutch: an indication of the sloppiest kind of writing. It works when you have a system where you understand the limits and boundaries of magic. The Sword of Truth had established, hardwired boundaries in its' magic system. Wheel of time *sort* of did (to an extent that it's never felt like anything that can be done can be done with magic). Even games that devolved to magic tea party (like Mage from WW) had some underlying structure and limitation to it (with reality and Arete levels).

D&D is the worst possible magic system I've ever encountered. It's the MacGuffin, the cheat, the universal kludge. It has no limitations, save for what an author can think of. If something needs to happen, saying "Magic!" and leaving it at that is enough.

Shadowrun is so obsessed with magic lately that it feels like it's heading in the direction of D&D: Magic > everything else in existence. And to me that's boring. I can play D&D if that's what I want.

[hermit]

It's just lazy writing on the part of unmotivated and/or untalented authors. Shadowrun USED to have magic that was very, very limited.

[Fuchs]

Yeah. Magic Fanboys at the helm make for a bad Shadowrun line.

[K]

I think Shadowrun would be more interesting if it just treated Earthdawn as a legend or fantasy about how magic used to be. Basically, treat the whole Earthdawn canon as Bronze Age propaganda.

Magic has to have limits to tell stories about it. I mean, even Disney knows this (see the first scene with the genie in Alladin).

[Kot]

Well. most of the magic stuff in SR4 is consistent and gives an idea of how magic works. This is where ED comes in. In Earthdawn there is a good, working and plausible magic theory. Taking into account almost everything, with Thread magic, Names, Blood magic, Astral, and such. This is why i find Ancient's High Magic this appealing. Because it provides stability, and stops SR from falling into the 'it's magic' category of rules, like DnD.

[TheFlatline]

Well. most of the magic stuff in SR4 is consistent and gives an idea of how magic works. This is where ED comes in. In Earthdawn there is a good, working and plausible magic theory. Taking into account almost everything, with Thread magic, Names, Blood magic, Astral, and such. This is why i find Ancient's High Magic this appealing. Because it provides stability, and stops SR from falling into the 'it's magic' category of rules, like DnD.

But having no experience with Erectile Dysfunctional, and with ED being out of print, basing your magic system on it is fucking stupid without stopping and explaining things to... like... the authors of your system. Which isn't happening.

Besides, you're still focusing on fantasy, which is an extremely crowded genre to compete in. SR doesn't stand out aside from the future setting in that respect.

[Fucks]

What the fuck are you talking about? Earthdawn is not ouf print since RB released a new edition.

[Fucks]

Shadowrun USED to have magic that was very, very limited.

Let me get this straight: SR magics beats ED magic in terms of power but is still very limited (or used to be)? That means ED magic is even more limited? What the fuck?

[Username17]

It's just lazy writing on the part of unmotivated and/or untalented authors. Shadowrun USED to have magic that was very, very limited.

But it was always very powerful even within those limits. Hell, in first edition, Magicians started play with a Magic attribute of 6.

Magic in Shadowrun is limited in scope, but within that scope it has always been very very powerful. Sleep affected everyone in a six meter radius, a Shadowrun mage could get it off twice in six seconds, and with some resting in between could blast away many times a day. That's medium level shit in Dungeons & Dragons. And in SR, you did it day one as a starting character.

Ritual magic that blows up mountains has been part of the setting (although not necessarily the playable game) from the beginning. That's basically ninth level spell effect territory. Maybe more, considering how fucking terrible D&D Wizards are at blowing things up.

The thing that sets SR magic aside is not that it is weak, but that it is actually very tightly explained. You pretty much know what magic can do and you know how you can protect yourself from it. The other thing that sets it aside is that it lives in a world that has space ships and machine guns, so being a mid level D&D Magic User actually isn't that impressive.

And that's where it needs to stay. Shit like the Slow Spell undermine the way magic functions in the game. And they make the setting unmanageable. Not because they are unbeatable or because they are necessarily over powered - but because they create a fundamentally different reality than the one otherwise depicted in the game.

-Username17

[TheFlatline]

What the fuck are you talking about? Earthdawn is not ouf print since RB released a new edition.

They're reprinting EarthDawn?

I stand corrected then. I had absolutely no clue.

[hermit]

Let me get this straight: SR magics beats ED magic in terms of power but is still very limited (or used to be)? That means ED magic is even more limited? What the fuck?

Yes. Well, ED mages have a number of tricks that are unavailable in SR, but that's seriously high level stuff. Essentiall, ED is SR with everyone being a mystical adept with little Karma running around in a permanent background count 3 mana shallow. Because, see, it's the dusk of magic, not the dawn. Things get less powerful there, not more. Things are falling apart because magic stops working slowly.

But it was always very powerful even within those limits. Hell, in first edition, Magicians started play with a Magic attribute of 6.

Yes, a bad choice. But while beginner PC mages are considerably more powerful than beginner PC mages in other systems (and beginner Streetsams are extremly powerful too, clocking in as an equivalent to a rank 9 ascended Dark Heresy character), magic as a game world element is far, far more limited than in D&D.

Ritual magic that blows up mountains has been part of the setting (although not necessarily the playable game) from the beginning. That's basically ninth level spell effect territory. Maybe more, considering how fucking terrible D&D Wizards are at blowing things up.

But this is the kind of magic you cannot do alone, and even then, it will kill you. Dancing the Ghost Dance is a once in a lifetime thing, unless you're Charette's uber-Stu.

I agree with you on that magic in SR has a very defined, even scientific, way of working (and not working). And untalented writers like Aaron do not get this and fuck the setting up. So yeah, I agree there. Magic needs to be treated with care, unlike it is in other, magic heavy settings.

[Fuchs]

And idiots trying to turn Shadowrun into "ED with guns" so they can write drivel about their dragon and elf "gods" forget that.

[hermit]

Yes. Not that I mind dragons and immortal elves in general, but they have their place in the setting where they should remain.

Magic, used like this, is just a cheap tool for even cheaper explanations of whatever drivel the writers make up. And even then, the current writers manage to fuck up royally and bring us the Auschwitz Jew Zombie Chainsaw Massacre.

[Lokathor]

What the fuck are you talking about? Earthdawn is not ouf print since RB released a new edition.

They're reprinting EarthDawn?

I stand corrected then. I had absolutely no clue.

http://www.redbrick-limited.com/cms/ind ... egoryid=18

It's pretty good. Far better edited and organized than 1e was. They're also (finally) getting around to making all new material that isn't just reprints of old edition works.