How to make Shadowrun less bad

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Post by Username17 »

Stahlseele wrote:VITAS alone killed about . . what was it? 20 to 33% of the worlds population?
VITAS was a thing that they never really went anywhere with. Basically, plagues hit the world super hard so that population in 2050 was about the same as population in 1989. The conceit was pretty much carried forward, so the population numbers of 2060 were supposed to be about the same as the population numbers in 1999, and the population numbers in 2070 were supposed to be about the same as those of 2009. Certainly a useful conceit, because it means you could always default to "present day" demographics rather than trying to come up with a plausible sounding future history of birth rates and migration.

To an extent, however, it was a crutch that encouraged lazy defaulting to modern social norms. Place books like Seattle Sourcebook really fail to get across the idea that you're talking about a place where basic services don't exist for more than half the populace. The fact that the population of the Sea-Tac metroplex was neither a teeming, starving morass of overpopulation nor was it a post-apocalyptic wasteland with population levels fallen far below critical threshold to maintain basic division of labor let authors fall back into describing the familiar. But that was horribly, horribly wrong. While the Sea-Tac metroplex wasn't depopulated, all the suburbs sure as hell were! People had moved into Arcologies, with a population density of ten thousand to the city block, suburbia had to have been a ghost town.

Where the ball was most obviously dropped was Los Angeles. Los Angeles has eighteen million people in it, but it's nearly fifty four thousand square kilometers. It's a city more populous than two thirds of the nations on Earth, but it only has about 333 people living per square kilometer. That's like one fiftieth the population density of a place like Athens. Most people have their own homes. Most of those homes are one story. And most of those homes have space between them and the next building to put like lawns and shit in. That's insane. And with Shadowrun's posited turn to Arcology living, it's also over. All those people who live in LA suburbs today simply don't in the Shadowrun future.

Right now, LA looks like this:
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But in the Shadowrun future, 90% of the people have moved into walking distance of that chunk with the big buildings. The rest is just a vast sea of emptiness. Los Angeles of the Shadowrun future has fifteen million abandoned buildings. A vast moat of decay that is ever so slowly being reclaimed by the desert.

And yet, when LA got written up, at no time was that really remarked upon. Various authors called out various random restaurants and theaters and gated communities and shit as being still around, giving the reader the impression that LA was just sort of chugging along like it was the 1970s instead of the 2070s. And that was wrong. The truth is, none of the LA landmark eateries are still functioning in the Shadowrun future, because the entire strip mall culture they were based on has fucking died. You can go to Slim's or the Chinese Theater or whatever the fuck, but those places are abandoned because potable water and electrical power are no longer delivered to those neighborhoods.

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Post by TheFlatline »

Actually Frank, living in LA, it'd be worse than that. In Neuromancer they had the Boston-Atlanta Metropolitan Axis (BAMA) that was supposed to be all futuristic and one long sprawl down the east coast.

Except... that's where LA is and has been for a while. The LA/San Diego metropolitan sprawl starts arguably as far north along the coast as Santa Barbara or further inland as like Lancaster, and continues south, pretty much uninterrupted, for like 200 miles to the Mexican boarder. The only interruption is the military base between Southern Orange County and San Diego, and even then towns and cities have sprung up inland around the base.

So really, it should be like 50 million buildings empty and kind of feral occupying most of Southern California, with maybe 3-6 "hot spots" of concentrated humanity. LA downtown, probably something like Brentwood/Santa Monica, Irvine, San Diego proper, and something possibly either in Inland Empire (doubtful due to it being basically the fucking desert) or maybe Commerce/City of Industry. A few other enclaves here and there I imagine: there's enough money here to totally set up a walled community with desalination and power if people didn't want to shack up in the arcology.

Fires are bad here. Really bad. Especially when the east winds kick up, and it's like 90 degrees, 2% humidity, and the wind is blowing at 30 mph. So in that kind of city desolation, I'd imagine you'd have rings around the cities where they just kind of went through and bulldozed everything in like a half mile radius from the city: They do it now in the hills to keep shrubs and brush from being a fire hazard.

As the city atrophies, earthquakes and fires would pretty much gut the LA sprawl. Probably within the first 5 years, or maybe 1-2 years into a *really* good drought like we're having now. It wouldn't look very recognizable.

Come to think of it, I'd actually question if LA could survive at all. Maybe through desalinization if it could be done on an industrial scale economically, but LA has no natural water sources. It's primary water sources are pretty limited: The Colorado, the Owens Valley Aqueduct (fame of the California Water Wars and tangentially linked to the movie Chinatown), the California Aqueduct (which I would guess would be kaput in SR's time frame) and a little of the city's water supply can come from ground water in good years.

That's it though. In an SR style post apocalyptic world I doubt that LA's populations could sustain without massive amounts of imported water from... somewhere.

And with PMCs and Megas having armies and shit, I can see that *if* LA survived in any kind of significant way, it'd be a highly militaristic, imperialistic power that would pretty much fuck anyone over for water. After all, whiskey's for drinking and water's for fighting over.
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Post by rasmuswagner »

On another note, don't allow your players to watch Winter Soldier, or even Agents of Shield. They're going to want cyberarms that deliver and damage-resistent cyberwear that's worthwhile. And we don't want people demanding that sort of thing in SR!
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Post by Stahlseele »

The SR4 Cyberlimbs are at least kind of useable. I think Frank made sure of that.
And, technically speaking, seeing how there is no Hitlocation system, the limbs are VERY much damage-resistant . .
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Peculiar properties of spacetime ensure that the perception of the magnitude of Soon is fluid and dependent, not on an individual's time-reference, but on spatial and cultural location. A marketer generally perceives Soon as a finite, known, yet unspeakable time-interval; to a fan, the interval appears greater, and may in fact approach the infinite, becoming Never. Once the interval has passed, however, a certain time-lensing effect seems to occur, and the time-interval becomes vanishingly small. We therefore see the strange result that the same fragment of spacetime may be observed, in quick succession, as Soon, Never, and All Too Quickly.
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Post by Username17 »

The weird part of course is that cyberlimbs were supposed to be good and strong and tough in the original fluff. And most of the later fluff too. In the original blue book, the "Bounty Hunter" contact has a cyberarm with a double digit strength score. That's just a thing she has, and it's not followed by three exclamation points or anything. When they turn Hatchetman into a cyberzombie, they give him a metal skull and torso - they don't just load him up with undetectable glandular mods or anything.

Cyberlimbs were always a failure from the rules end, not the fluff. The fluff was always supposed to be that there were dudes walking around with metal arms that could lift and throw a car. The guy on the cover of Man & Machine has cyberlimbs and is exhibiting super strength.

In every edition, the concept has suffered two problems. The first is that having a super strong metal arm is simply way too expensive. Essence aside, back in 2nd edition they expected you to pay 175,000¥ per point of Strength enhancement. For that kind of scratch, you could just buy yourself a forklift (or a giant robot) and have it carry all your shit. SR3 was "better" in that you only had to pay 75,000¥ per point of Strength. But that's still ridiculous in that for the price of having one arm's worth of genuine super strength you could literally just buy yourself a tracked military vehicle. And the second problem of course is that being super strong just doesn't fucking matter. Even our double digit strength girl from the original book, no one fucking cared that she was massively strong. It simply didn't matter, because one armed strength is a stupid pet trick in a world where you have cars and guns.

The whole Cyberlimb thing really highlighted that Strength wasn't a real stat and that the expectations of Essence costs for stat enhancements were way too high. Cyberlimbs came out crazy expensive by the formula because they could get quite hit strength values without additional Essence costs. But what that really showed was that the formula was bad. And also that the attributes were horribly unbalanced. The reality is that being super strong in one arm isn't for five thousand yen per Strength point. Let alone thirty five times that.

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Post by Stahlseele »

The Thing Limbs had going for them was the more toys you could build into them.
A Cranial Cyber-Deck in SR3 was anywhere from 1.9 Essence and 14k Nuyen to 2.8 Essence and 300k.
Get an Arm for 75k or 100k depending on wether you want chrome or synthflesh and it costs you 1 point of essence. Then get a DNI built into it for another 0,1 Essence. Then plonk a regular run of the mill external cyberdeck into that arm and blammo, no more essence cost.
With Essence being a much more limiting factor than money usually, stuff like THAT was kind of worth it . .
Especially if you consider things like the VCR, which went from 2 Essence/12k to 5 Essence/300k Nuyen.

But otherwise, yes, the fluff was made of awesome and the crunch was made from suck.
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TFwiki wrote:Soon is the name of the region in the time-domain (familiar to all marketing departments, and to the moderators and staff of Fun Publications) which sees release of all BotCon news, club exclusives, and other fan desirables. Soon is when then will become now.

Peculiar properties of spacetime ensure that the perception of the magnitude of Soon is fluid and dependent, not on an individual's time-reference, but on spatial and cultural location. A marketer generally perceives Soon as a finite, known, yet unspeakable time-interval; to a fan, the interval appears greater, and may in fact approach the infinite, becoming Never. Once the interval has passed, however, a certain time-lensing effect seems to occur, and the time-interval becomes vanishingly small. We therefore see the strange result that the same fragment of spacetime may be observed, in quick succession, as Soon, Never, and All Too Quickly.
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Post by tussock »

@TheFlatline

In arcologies, the water's not a problem. The trace radioactive waste and unwanted heavy metals exits the structure in pellet form and everything else is recirculated somewhere useful. No one's watering a lawn or filling a pool any more, it's just drinking and cleaning, and they have really good filters / evaporator-condensers for that.

Of course, it's often much cheaper to mine than recycle, so can still have garbage going out and fresh resources coming in, even water, as well as energy constraints on doing everything internally, but mostly they don't let that value leave in the first place.
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Post by Grek »

Of course, scientifically cyber arms making you stronger makes no sense. They'd fall off if you tried to lift a car.
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Post by Username17 »

Grek wrote:Of course, scientifically cyber arms making you stronger makes no sense. They'd fall off if you tried to lift a car.
Scientifically, matching or exceeding human strength is extremely trivial. Jackhammers, hydraulic presses, compressed springs, and magnetic pistons can exceed human capable force by many thousands of times. Getting anything close to a human arm's light touch and fine motor skills has proved remarkably difficult.

Cars actually aren't all that heavy, and it is entirely possible to imagine lifting one without the torque of doing so ripping your arm out of its socket. If your cybernetic limb was reinforced at and beyond the shoulder, it almost certainly wouldn't be a problem. Cars can and do rip peoples arms off, but they have to be traveling at like 80 kilometers an hour or more to do that. The simple weight of a car wouldn't tear an arm off unless it had fallen some distance already. It is historical fact that a woman lifted a 1964 Chevy Impala, and those bad boys weigh 1.7 tonnes. Modern cars are considerably lighter.

See, it's this kind of bullshit which is why cyborgs can't have nice things. People keep throwing weird incredulity about what the human body could be capable of if it was reinforced with futuristic super materials that are actually less than the human body is capable of without any modification at all.

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Post by Grek »

I stand corrected!
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Post by Stahlseele »

And this is, of course, compounded even more so in the stupid lifting rules . .
Hell, technically, a STR MAX TROLL could NOT pull himself up a rope because he weights more than his MAX STR allows him to lift in some cases.
If you want to take this to the extreme, the trolls legs could not support his body weight because they are too weak to carry that weight too . .
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Shrapnel wrote:
TFwiki wrote:Soon is the name of the region in the time-domain (familiar to all marketing departments, and to the moderators and staff of Fun Publications) which sees release of all BotCon news, club exclusives, and other fan desirables. Soon is when then will become now.

Peculiar properties of spacetime ensure that the perception of the magnitude of Soon is fluid and dependent, not on an individual's time-reference, but on spatial and cultural location. A marketer generally perceives Soon as a finite, known, yet unspeakable time-interval; to a fan, the interval appears greater, and may in fact approach the infinite, becoming Never. Once the interval has passed, however, a certain time-lensing effect seems to occur, and the time-interval becomes vanishingly small. We therefore see the strange result that the same fragment of spacetime may be observed, in quick succession, as Soon, Never, and All Too Quickly.
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Post by kzt »

FrankTrollman wrote: See, it's this kind of bullshit which is why cyborgs can't have nice things. People keep throwing weird incredulity about what the human body could be capable of if it was reinforced with futuristic super materials that are actually less than the human body is capable of without any modification at all.
The record for benchpress is about 700 pounds. The record for benchpress with a benchpress shirt (which is essentially several layers of really strong cloth) is almost 1000 pounds. So yeah, if you are installing all sorts of cybernetics on someone reinforcing them structurally equal to or greater than two layers of denim seems perfectly possible and not terribly expensive. I could see a guy with two cyber arms benchpressing a ton or two or more.

The record deadlift is a bit over 1000 pounds. That's a guy with a weghtbelt, nothing fancy. Just enormously strong. I think a certain amount of structural reinforcement added as part of the deal makes perfect sense, so that would push the limit quite a bit higher with a pair of cyberlegs. So lifting cars, no problem.

Making it so they can lift an M1 tank, well maybe not. But that isn't what we are talking about.
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Post by Stahlseele »

Throwing Motorcycles at squishies should totally be a viable option for a Ganger Troll, Ork and maybe even Dorf . .
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Shrapnel wrote:
TFwiki wrote:Soon is the name of the region in the time-domain (familiar to all marketing departments, and to the moderators and staff of Fun Publications) which sees release of all BotCon news, club exclusives, and other fan desirables. Soon is when then will become now.

Peculiar properties of spacetime ensure that the perception of the magnitude of Soon is fluid and dependent, not on an individual's time-reference, but on spatial and cultural location. A marketer generally perceives Soon as a finite, known, yet unspeakable time-interval; to a fan, the interval appears greater, and may in fact approach the infinite, becoming Never. Once the interval has passed, however, a certain time-lensing effect seems to occur, and the time-interval becomes vanishingly small. We therefore see the strange result that the same fragment of spacetime may be observed, in quick succession, as Soon, Never, and All Too Quickly.
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Post by TheFlatline »

kzt wrote:
FrankTrollman wrote: See, it's this kind of bullshit which is why cyborgs can't have nice things. People keep throwing weird incredulity about what the human body could be capable of if it was reinforced with futuristic super materials that are actually less than the human body is capable of without any modification at all.
The record for benchpress is about 700 pounds. The record for benchpress with a benchpress shirt (which is essentially several layers of really strong cloth) is almost 1000 pounds. So yeah, if you are installing all sorts of cybernetics on someone reinforcing them structurally equal to or greater than two layers of denim seems perfectly possible and not terribly expensive. I could see a guy with two cyber arms benchpressing a ton or two or more.

The record deadlift is a bit over 1000 pounds. That's a guy with a weghtbelt, nothing fancy. Just enormously strong. I think a certain amount of structural reinforcement added as part of the deal makes perfect sense, so that would push the limit quite a bit higher with a pair of cyberlegs. So lifting cars, no problem.

Making it so they can lift an M1 tank, well maybe not. But that isn't what we are talking about.
Here's a video of a guy totally lifting a crashed helicopter. Not high mind you, but he heaves at least 2200 pounds high enough to pull a survivor out.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XbjJBZIONUc

And he's a pretty fat fuck who isn't particularly buff.
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Post by Lokathor »

Well, in that case though he's more like tipping the wreckage, not lifting it entirely off the ground like you do in a deadlift.
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Post by Maxus »

If he's any kind of active, despite the fat, he's packing some mighty legs, at the least.

My dad's that way. He's overweight but underneath the fat there's an...actually kinda frightening amount of physical strength. He pushed a car up an incline once by sitting on the tailgate of a truck, bracing his feet on the car's bumper, and having the truck driver back up slowly while he kept his legs locked. (I also don't believe he's loaned his tow-rope out even once since this, since you ask.)

This is why I've never thought someone physically weak just because they're overweight.

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Post by kzt »

TheFlatline wrote: And he's a pretty fat fuck who isn't particularly buff.
Power lifters are not trim, ripped guys. However they are enormously strong.

"the meet isn’t done ‘till the bar hits the floor"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e6jTyDglwZU
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Post by JesterZero »

kzt wrote:Power lifters are not trim, ripped guys. However they are enormously strong.
That's actually only true for a certain segment of powerlifting. The video is of Andy Bolton, who weighs 160 kg and competes in the IPF in the 120 kg and over weight class. And it's true that those fellows don't tend to focus on low bodyfat percentages. Why would they? There's no ceiling on that weight class, so as long as they can continue to trade mass gains for strength gains, there's no reason not to do so.

However, that's only one of nine weight classes in the IPF. A lot of guys in the lower groups do tend to be "trim and ripped," and there are a lot of shenanigans around cutting weight to get into those weight classes. After all, their ability to remain competitive is based upon being both as strong as possible and as small as possible. They don't want to carry any extra mass if they don't have to.

For example, these are from the most recent IPF Men's Open. I don't know offhand what weight class they're in, but I'd guess they're somewhere around the 83 kg group, give or take a class. That would put them near the middle of the pack.
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But yes...Shadowrun's lifting rules are awful.
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Post by Avoraciopoctules »

I seem to remember seeing some pregenerated shadowrun 4E characters that were actually made following the rules and able to do things. But googling it on the Gaming Den isn't showing me anything, and I'm not sure if the Dumpshock forums are even still up. Anyone have tips for where I ought to look for good premade Shadowrun PCs?

EDIT: Looks like I might have found it after all
http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=20029
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