Pathfinder Is Still Bad

[Lago PARANOIA]

What is so great about the void domain?

I am absolutely baffled as to why you asked this question.

Part the veil doesn't look very useful.

Part the Veil (Su): At 8th level, you can lace spells you cast with the raw madness that waits in the outer darkness. Activating this ability is a swift action that you must use as you cast a spell that targets a single creature and that allows a Will saving throw to negate or reduce the spell’s primary effect. If the target fails to resist the spell, the target is also confused for a number of rounds equal to the spell’s level as visions of the void cause temporary insanity.

You get that? The confusion is added on as a result of the spell landing without any additional saving throws and needs to be saved against separately. In particular, Part the Veil is very useful for cleric spells in which the person can take actions to mitigate the effect, like Hold Person or Compassionate Ally. It also stretches out the useful of low-level cleric spells by giving it a rider with more unf. Or it gives spells that you've already decided to plunder from other domains or spell lists such as Shadow Conjuration that much more hurting.

Seriously, have you ever played a blaster cleric at all ishy? I'm downright baffled how you're not drooling at this feature and/or screaming 'hax'.

True neutral -- or really, any kind of neutral -- clerics are better at binding than wizards are. Various cleric-exclusive effects contribute to this particular spell.

Furthermore, the Void domain gives you Lesser Planar Ally a spell level early. Void domain clerics get it at level 7, wizards/sorcerers get it at level 9.

The only thing that wizards have over Pathfinder clerics with the generic binding is the spell Embrace Destiny. But, oh yeah, it's a level 1 spell and Pathfinder makes it so that clerics can train Use Magic Device as long as they don't mind missing out on the +3 bonus. You don't, not with all of that charisma-boosting crap.

Long story short: clerics will be the designated Planar Binding Whore in Pathfinder, not wizards.

Planar binding is nice, getting planar binding in domain slots, not so much. Especially multiple versions.

Gee, it's too damn bad the cleric can't like put other spells in those domain slots. Guess they're just stuck with that particular spell in the domain spell slot foreeeever.

[Dean]

Yeah Lago that still looks like ass. If an enemy has failed a will save against a spell you cast and the most exciting thing your getting out of it is some confusion then it sounds like you and your spells suck super hard.

That thing looks bad.

[Lago PARANOIA]

If an enemy has failed a will save against a spell you cast and the most exciting thing your getting out of it is some confusion then it sounds like you and your spells suck super hard.

It's a swift action and needs to be saved against separately. Confusion has a 50-75% chance of making someone do something useless or counterproductive for a round. It's no paralyze or blindness certainly, but it's extra spell insurance.

And of course for some spells, like Hold Person or Constricting Coils, it synergizes super nicely.

[Dean]

It does not say it needs to be saved against separately, in fact it says it only takes effect if the target fails to resist the original spell. It says "If the target fails to resist the spell, the target is also confused". If you do it with Hold Person the target is either held, not held, or held AND confused. There is no option where they are NOT held and ARE confused.

[Whipstitch]

Void has a pretty sweet spell list, but yeah, I dunno what Lago was reading with Veil. I've seen it used to jazz up Bestow Curse but that's not an ability that ages well, which is a problem given that we're talking about something that doesn't even come online until level 8.

[Parthenon]

If you do it with Hold Person the target is either held, not held, or held AND confused. There is no option where they are NOT held and ARE confused.

Correction- theres no save for the confusion part, so there are still only two outcomes- either not held, or held and confused.

[Archmage Joda]

Speaking of these clerics, Lago, how would you make a Conjurer/Blaster type Cleric? Also, how would said cleric be able to plunder certain wizard spells along the lines of Teleport or Telekinesis?

[sabs]

Speaking of these clerics, Lago, how would you make a Conjurer/Blaster type Cleric? Also, how would said cleric be able to plunder certain wizard spells along the lines of Teleport or Telekinesis?

You play a Cleric with

A) The Travel Domain.
That gets you: 1st—longstrider, 2nd—locate object, 3rd—fly, 4th—dimension door, 5th—teleport, 6th—find the path, 7th—greater teleport, 8th—phase door, 9th—astral projection.

Agile Feet at 1st, and Dim Door as a move at 8th
b) Weather Domain
This gets you call lightning and ice storm. Not perfect, but it's pretty good.
You could go with the Dragon Domain.

Dark Tapestry gets you slightly improved summoning.

[Lago PARANOIA]

Travel + Artifice: Construct and taking levels in Veiled Illusionist gets you a nice chunk of wizard spells. You may consider not taking levels in VI at all with certain domains (like the aforementioned Artifice: Construct) as domain abilities like Construct and Flotsam are berserkly powerful. If you have feats to burn, taking Eldritch Heritage: Arcane and Improved Eldritch Heritage: Arcane gets you Arcane Bond (which fucking rules for clerics) and lets you cherry pick a wizard spell. There's tjeese that you can do with with prepared spell slots, pearls of power, and Robes of Arcane Heritage and/or Ampoules of False Blood to snag whatever wizard spell you want, too.

Good domains for your cleric are Charm, Darkness, Void, Luck (Imagination), Animal/Scalykind. There's also the druid domain of Eagle (for a familiar) which you can tjeese out with Familiar Spell and Magician Hats. If you have absolutely no shame and don't mind completely forgoing a prestige class -- not a bad idea in Pathfinder -- the Flotsam subdomain is your huckleberry. If you're really high level (like 15+) the Madness: Nightmare domain is a smorgasbord of goodness.

Clerics really made out like bandits in Pathfinder. The nerfs they got were very tiny and the buffs they got were pretty huge. The only things you'll really miss are divine power and heavy armor proficiency, along with some (very tiny) domain nerfs like to Trickery. The only class that did better in powerups in Pathfinder than the cleric is the sorcerer.

[Whipstitch]

I <3 the Travel domain in general. Deities with that in their portfolio are generally pretty chill dudes or just outright have God of Murder Hoboing on their placard, so even dirty atheists like myself can stomach the fluff pretty easily whenever we want to get in on those sweet, sweet divine abilities. But mostly, it's a crap ton of stuff that is useful without being the kind of crap that might make your DM throw up in their mouth when they see your sheet.

[Dean]

Agreed. There's no way I'm ever walking a 10th+ level character out the door without having teleport. Travel's pretty standard for me as well.

[LR]

It does not say it needs to be saved against separately, in fact it says it only takes effect if the target fails to resist the original spell. It says "If the target fails to resist the spell, the target is also confused". If you do it with Hold Person the target is either held, not held, or held AND confused. There is no option where they are NOT held and ARE confused.

A strict reading means that if you fail your spell resistance check (as most creatures without spell resistance do), you're automatically confused, no save.

EDIT: Alternatively, if you don't have the appropriate automagic resistance (like fire or some kind of damage resistance), you're automatically confused, no save.

[Lago PARANOIA]

It does not say it needs to be saved against separately, in fact it says it only takes effect if the target fails to resist the original spell. It says "If the target fails to resist the spell, the target is also confused". If you do it with Hold Person the target is either held, not held, or held AND confused. There is no option where they are NOT held and ARE confused.

I've seen it used to jazz up Bestow Curse but that's not an ability that ages well, which is a problem given that we're talking about something that doesn't even come online until level 8.

Okay, let's go over the synergy.

Hold Person and related effects like Hold Monster and Constricting Coils, for example, allows a round-by-round save -- but only if you take a full-round action. If you're confused, this makes it really hard to save out of Hold Whatever. And even if they do manage to get the 25% chance to attempt the save, if they hadn't saved against the confusion previously then they're still confused.

Yes, there are a bunch of great cleric spells in which the confusion isn't going to do jack diddly. But there are also a bunch of cleric spells or readily plunderable cleric spells like Greater Forbid Action targeted at one creature or Compassionate Ally in which it is a major help. Or game effects that allow an off-action advantage of some sort like the Spell-Storing or Conductive (targeting a spell-like, of course) property.

Sheesh. It's like if a game effect doesn't explicitly package its uses or combos alongside it people are too dumb to figure out how to use it.

[Whipstitch]

The link you're showing doesn't say anything about it taking a full action though.

[Lago PARANOIA]

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/h/hold-person

[echoVanguard]

Hold Person and related effects like Hold Monster and Constricting Coils, for example, allows a round-by-round save -- but only if you take a full-round action.

So, (Lesser Quicken Rod + Ray of Dizziness) + Constricting Coils = Win?

Sheesh. It's like if a game effect doesn't explicitly package its uses or combos alongside it people are too dumb to figure out how to use it.

echo

[Lago PARANOIA]

So, (Lesser Quicken Rod + Ray of Dizziness) + Constricting Coils = Win?

Ray of Dizziness does not have a Pathfinder-specific adaptation. Therefore it doesn't exist at all.

[echoVanguard]

Ray of Dizziness does not have a Pathfinder-specific adaptation. Therefore it doesn't exist at all.

Substitute any other effect that applies the Staggered condition.

echo

[Lago PARANOIA]

Substitute any other effect that applies the Staggered condition.

Or you could have both and really stretch out those GP and spell slots.

[Lago PARANOIA]

Also, I'd like to apologize for my earlier remark. You know, the one where eV busted out the Homestuck avatar to make fun of me. That was some seriously petulant shit and I feel like a lame-o after re-reading it.

[Parthenon]

The confusion is added on as a result of the spell landing without any additional saving throws and needs to be saved against separately.

I already saw that more confusion to the enemy is always good and makes round by round saves harder, but it's the bolded part that confused everyone since you are wrong about that part. You're saying that the confusion part can be saved against at all, which it can't be- they either save against it and aren't affected by confusion, or fail the original save and are affected for a number of rounds, even if they make a subsequent save.

And I think I misread the word landing, which I thought you meant "the point of time where the spell strikes the target, at which point the confusion effect is saved against separately".

[ishy]

Looking through the cleric list quickly for part the veil, it would appear that debilitating portent would make the target confused, with no initial save. Are there any more spells like this?

Also, I'd like to apologize for my earlier remark. You know, the one where eV busted out the Homestuck avatar to make fun of me. That was some seriously petulant shit and I feel like a lame-o after re-reading it.

We all do that sometimes, especially in the heat of an argument. I dread looking through my own post history

[Parthenon]

Looking through the cleric list quickly for part the veil, it would appear that debilitating portent would make the target confused, with no initial save.

Wrong.

Part the Veil requires a spell which has a Will save to reduce or negate. Debiliating Portent doesn't. The effect has requirements of Will saves, but the spell itself doesn't.

[Avoraciopoctules]

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-cl ... -weapon-su

Are there any cool tricks you can do with a BAB 5 or more higher than your character level?

[zugschef]

robbypants shared this link on bg (thanks man): http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/m ... ystem.html

hilarious.