The Shadowrun Situation

Otakusensei · Post by **Otakusensei** » Sat Oct 22, 2011 2:58 am

The first parts were "railroady" because they were part of alinear story. You have to be walked through the first few chapters before you can understand and be walked through the last chapters. It's not everyone's cup of tea as a RPG format, but if you're not into it then don't run it. Or do your own things. All that's been understood for how many years?

The thing that sucks about this type of ending is that you as the player, or the GM, have no idea what the fuck happened. It would be like leaving Dunkelzahn's assassination a possible plot point. Either it happened or it didn't. Either the world is changed (read: setting) or it isn't. Shadowrun needed a big grand event, and all it's getting under the current fuckheads is a shrug.

As a developer they can't change the style of the product half way through, even if they like it better this way. It's sloppy and it looks like they don't know how to finish it, or they got intimidated by the folks who are angry about the first adventures and panicked. Or maybe they don't know how to finish it? Which is the most damning of all.

And really who the fuck cares? I still have my copy of Midnight in the shipper under my desk. I was so disgusted then that I didn't even want it if they had profited from work and withheld pay to the writer. Even after it was over I was just not interested in opening it. I ended the DotA arch in Africa and Frosty was just another NPC after that. AH released his notes on Harlequin's Gambit and I picked up the tail of the adventure later.

This product means nothing. They can keep going though the motions but the game is still dead. They don't have the ability to write 5th edition or the knowledge to do it right. Dead end publisher is a dead end publisher.

Stahlseele · Post by **Stahlseele** » Sat Oct 22, 2011 10:50 pm

TheFlatline wrote:Heh. Heh heh.

SR is becoming a browser-based MMO.

http://www.cliffhanger-productions.com/ ... ails/id/65

And they claim they're working with current and previous developers... anyone on the board get contacted?

One of the Devs actually registered on both the official board and dumpshock to come and talk to us, the fans, about the game, as much as he is allowed to . .
and he came to dumpshock first.
furthermore, they are in contact with pegasus spiele too.
ALSO they are making a jagged alliance online game, ALSO based on the unity engine . . and there's even a beta for JAO people can sign up for allready . .

nikita · Post by **nikita** » Sun Oct 23, 2011 3:51 pm

I am starting to think that CGL is in a death spiral.

BattleTech is their flagship product and much awaited time jump to Dark Ages (to start in late 2012 to mid 2013) and then jump forwards to 3150 timeline (to start in 2013) has just been postponed few years further. This announcement came about 3-4 months after confidently talking of 2012-2013 schedule...

Read this:

<Toad>: When will the Frist Post DA material be out?
<Habeas2>: Toad - Our schedule is in flux. Originally I planned for the post-DA to start in 2012-2013. Now it may be out as far as 2015

http://www.classicbattletech.com/forums ... 852.0.html

My first thought is that CGL is running on fumes and not just with Shadorun...

Juton · Post by **Juton** » Sun Oct 23, 2011 4:29 pm

nikita wrote:I am starting to think that CGL is in a death spiral.

BattleTech is their flagship product and much awaited time jump to Dark Ages (to start in late 2012 to mid 2013) and then jump forwards to 3150 timeline (to start in 2013) has just been postponed few years further. This announcement came about 3-4 months after confidently talking of 2012-2013 schedule...

Read this:

<Toad>: When will the Frist Post DA material be out?
<Habeas2>: Toad - Our schedule is in flux. Originally I planned for the post-DA to start in 2012-2013. Now it may be out as far as 2015

http://www.classicbattletech.com/forums ... 852.0.html

My first thought is that CGL is running on fumes and not just with Shadorun...

I played Battletech at a convention a few months back, and I could tell things aren't running smoothly over there. Back under Fanpro they would run big world-wide events, they only did that a little under CGL, those look like they dried up. They also used to have professional software to print of mechs for games, that software hasn't received a major update in many years so now even the Demo team is printing sheets using free fan made software. That's not a jab at the quality of the free software, it's quite good, it's just that CGL isn't organized enough to get new official software out the door, which at ~$20 a copy mush have been a money maker.

adamjury · Post by **adamjury** » Sun Oct 23, 2011 7:29 pm

Juton wrote:They also used to have professional software to print of mechs for games, that software hasn't received a major update in many years so now even the Demo team is printing sheets using free fan made software. That's not a jab at the quality of the free software, it's quite good, it's just that CGL isn't organized enough to get new official software out the door, which at ~$20 a copy mush have been a money maker.

CGL doesn't/didn't produce that software themselves; another company (a one-person company) did. Development of the new version was taking a long time the last time I got a status update, which was, obviously, quite awhile ago.

TheFlatline · Post by **TheFlatline** » Sun Oct 23, 2011 8:54 pm

adamjury wrote:
Juton wrote:They also used to have professional software to print of mechs for games, that software hasn't received a major update in many years so now even the Demo team is printing sheets using free fan made software. That's not a jab at the quality of the free software, it's quite good, it's just that CGL isn't organized enough to get new official software out the door, which at ~$20 a copy mush have been a money maker.
CGL doesn't/didn't produce that software themselves; another company (a one-person company) did. Development of the new version was taking a long time the last time I got a status update, which was, obviously, quite awhile ago.

This. I actually have the map software (Maps never go out of date). I think I got an update a couple/six months ago that the dude was back to work on updating the mech software though. That was the last I heard of it however.

I actually suspect that they're putting all their effort into Leviathans. It apparently got some traction at Gencon. Setting up a new production line for figs cannot be cheap.

Battletech is a dead end for them financially ultimately. They aren't willing to overhaul the mechanics, which means that the only real market for their rules are new players, which they're resistant to at the best of times. They don't produce figs for licensing reasons, so they can't make money there. If they want to make money off of a minis game, they need new IP.

I just don't know if a steampunk WW1 battleship skirmish system is going to be appealing enough.

Otakusensei · Post by **Otakusensei** » Sun Oct 23, 2011 9:17 pm

I was at a party at my brother's apartment and showed a friend the website for Leviathans. Since then my brother has lost his girlfriend and moved to Kentucky. My friend is no longer my friend after having a kid, getting in a fight with his wife and disappearing after running up their credit cards. For my part I'm no longer a CGL fan because that was YEARS AGO.

I wish CGL all the best with Leviathans. If they succeed there they may be willing to drop their flagging licensed IPS. Some part of me still believes that the right people could do well by Shadowrun. It wouldn't look the same, but it's been saved once.

Juton · Post by **Juton** » Sun Oct 23, 2011 11:09 pm

adamjury wrote:CGL doesn't/didn't produce that software themselves; another company (a one-person company) did. Development of the new version was taking a long time the last time I got a status update, which was, obviously, quite awhile ago.

The software in question (HeavyMetal Pro or HMP) is a pretty good piece of software, it does everything one would ask, accept it doesn't handle the new equipment well or at all. There hasn't been an update of HMP in 4+ years, which is a long time in today's software market. As good as HMP is it could be written by any bachelor of computer science, or even just a hobbyist, after 6 or 12 months of non-delivery CGL should have gone and contracted someone to write new software.

They didn't, now the free alternative has legitimacy and they've lost another revenue stream. Likewise people have been clamoring for a computerized version of the board game, instead of actively pursuing a way for them to profit from such software they did nothing and now there is a free version that does pretty much everything. Don't get me wrong, I support free (ie open) software, and I like the free software made for Battletech, just without money coming in the line will wallow, then die with a whimper.

Fuchs · Post by **Fuchs** » Mon Oct 24, 2011 6:15 am

A free version of battletech to play over the net? Interesting.

A Man In Black · Post by **A Man In Black** » Mon Oct 24, 2011 6:32 am

Fuchs wrote:A free version of battletech to play over the net? Interesting.

Yeah, Megamek. It's a bit arcane, but pretty absorbing once you get into it.

Fuchs · Post by **Fuchs** » Mon Oct 24, 2011 6:54 am

Whoa, it even has an AI opponent? Is it any good?

A Man In Black · Post by **A Man In Black** » Mon Oct 24, 2011 7:45 am

Fuchs wrote:Whoa, it even has an AI opponent? Is it any good?

I dunno, I last played it before the AI was introduced.

Fuchs · Post by **Fuchs** » Mon Oct 24, 2011 8:57 am

I'll have to try it then. Do you know how many figures it can handle?

Stahlseele · Post by **Stahlseele** » Mon Oct 24, 2011 9:20 am

It can handle pretty much unlimited . .
But the Bot will slow down with each unit, especially with faster mechs and those with jumpjets.
Because it calculates the move for every unit in accordance with every other unit . .
And the bot is, sadly, not all that smart . .
For example, when playing double-blind and you do not have LOS to any of his units, he will basically just stand around and wait for you to establish LOS again.

Also: how the hell did you not know about megamek? @.@

Fuchs · Post by **Fuchs** » Mon Oct 24, 2011 9:32 am

Stahlseele wrote:It can handle pretty much unlimited . .
But the Bot will slow down with each unit, especially with faster mechs and those with jumpjets.
Because it calculates the move for every unit in accordance with every other unit . .
And the bot is, sadly, not all that smart . .
For example, when playing double-blind and you do not have LOS to any of his units, he will basically just stand around and wait for you to establish LOS again.

Also: how the hell did you not know about megamek? @.@

My tabletop group stopped playing sometime after the TR that contained Turkina B came out. I stopped following BT after the Inner Sphere struck one Clan homeworld.

Stahlseele · Post by **Stahlseele** » Mon Oct 24, 2011 12:42 pm

Ah, i see.

Taharqa · Post by **Taharqa** » Thu Oct 27, 2011 11:35 pm

Juton wrote:
adamjury wrote:CGL doesn't/didn't produce that software themselves; another company (a one-person company) did. Development of the new version was taking a long time the last time I got a status update, which was, obviously, quite awhile ago.
The software in question (HeavyMetal Pro or HMP) is a pretty good piece of software, it does everything one would ask, accept it doesn't handle the new equipment well or at all. There hasn't been an update of HMP in 4+ years, which is a long time in today's software market. As good as HMP is it could be written by any bachelor of computer science, or even just a hobbyist, after 6 or 12 months of non-delivery CGL should have gone and contracted someone to write new software.

They didn't, now the free alternative has legitimacy and they've lost another revenue stream. Likewise people have been clamoring for a computerized version of the board game, instead of actively pursuing a way for them to profit from such software they did nothing and now there is a free version that does pretty much everything. Don't get me wrong, I support free (ie open) software, and I like the free software made for Battletech, just without money coming in the line will wallow, then die with a whimper.

Its much more complicated than that. CGL can't produce commercial software for mech building or for playing the game online, because FASA sold those rights to Microsoft which still holds them. Rick Raisley, the creator of HMP Pro, went through the legal process with Microsoft to get explicit rights to sell mech-building software. So technically, Rick Raisley would have grounds to sue CGL for infringing on his deal if they tried to duplicate it. However, Rick clearly seems to have burnout and has failed to keep the program updated. Two separate free, open-source versions have been released in the meantime, and so CGL seems content to use those since they technically have no leverage over HMP Pro.

Similarly, MegaMek exists under the radar as a free, open-source game. It helps promote Battletech and pulls in new players who then buy books, so CGL tends to view it with benign neglect and M$ probably just doesn't give a shit.

So in a nutshell, none of this tells us about the fiscal state of CGL.

4815162342 · Post by **4815162342** » Sun Oct 30, 2011 10:36 am

Battletech and CGL is about to get an infusion of free press. Check out @InnerSphereNews on twitter. Oh and besides Leviathans they have another in house game coming out that had a lot of lookers at GEN-CON. 'Cosmic Patrol.'

Beyond that the miniatures gaming market is flat right now world wide. Even a friend I worked with is back with us again after leaving to be a Games Workshop rep because the sales are declining. People just find it easier to play an electronic game via the internet or meet for a 3.5 session at home with buddies than put up with the going into a shop and enduring know-it-all grognards; whose idea of fun is to win every time after spending hours perfecting a min max character or unit.

Stahlseele · Post by **Stahlseele** » Sun Oct 30, 2011 12:46 pm

Ahem . . you're a bit behind . . the InnerSphereNews Business has been hot topic for some weeks by now . .

Also, both the official shadowrun and battletech boards are down for whatever reason . .

Previn · Post by **Previn** » Sun Oct 30, 2011 6:49 pm

Fuchs wrote:Whoa, it even has an AI opponent? Is it any good?

No the AI is almsot the definition of a 'dumb bot.' It basically chooses the most advantage move (by highest to hit number for it) and shots (by lowest to hit number) for the current turn and that's essentially it.

Stahlseele · Post by **Stahlseele** » Sun Oct 30, 2011 7:35 pm

They are trying to work on it . .
But it's a Hobby Project, and then Tripple A Games have dumb as shit AI most of the time, because AI is complicated and computing intensive . .

Also: Having the highest possible to hit modifier on your side and the lowest possible to hit on the enemy side is, after all, what the complete Classic-Battle-Tech-System is all about . .
That is how you, as a player, have to play to win . .

TheFlatline · Post by **TheFlatline** » Sun Oct 30, 2011 9:33 pm

Stahlseele wrote:Ahem . . you're a bit behind . . the InnerSphereNews Business has been hot topic for some weeks by now . .

Also, both the official shadowrun and battletech boards are down for whatever reason . .

I avoid Twitter on principle. What's the news supposed to be?

Stahlseele · Post by **Stahlseele** » Sun Oct 30, 2011 10:12 pm

Well . . we are, right now, only awaiting 2 more picture fragments.
One with the full Title and one with the year for which release is planned.
see here:

Previn · Post by **Previn** » Mon Oct 31, 2011 1:32 am

Stahlseele wrote:They are trying to work on it . .
But it's a Hobby Project, and then Tripple A Games have dumb as shit AI most of the time, because AI is complicated and computing intensive . .

Also: Having the highest possible to hit modifier on your side and the lowest possible to hit on the enemy side is, after all, what the complete Classic-Battle-Tech-System is all about . .
That is how you, as a player, have to play to win . .

I'm not saying that it's some major detraction that the bot is bad, because it's a nice side project, not the main focus.

But to say that playing the highest and lowest to hit numbers is the way to win in BT is disingenuous. There are times where you want to take a roughly 5% harder shot because it will put down an opposing mech. There's strategy to drawing an opponent in terrain to restrict their movement (and to know when you're being drawn into such a trap), putting out a target to draw fire or knowing when to push your heat for an alpha strike even if it slows you down and makes to hits harder. Knowing when to stay back and snipe because you've got the fire power and to hit advantage, or to not start with the cluster ammo just because it happens to be above the slug ammo in the list.

The bot doesn't do any of these things.

The bot moves toward you and shoots.

TheFlatline · Post by **TheFlatline** » Mon Oct 31, 2011 9:52 am

Stahlseele wrote:Well . . we are, right now, only awaiting 2 more picture fragments.
One with the full Title and one with the year for which release is planned.
see here:

Gotcha. Interesting. Instead of going for a realistic look, it looks like they're saying "fuck it, a few years ago was THE SHIT" and going with cell shading and illustration effects.

On the up shot, it *should* run on decent computers since cell shading and the illustrated look really can get away with skimping on the engine side of things.

Just strange that after that first MW teaser video they went in such a different direction.

On the down shot, if the game is not a 2012 release then this is a meaningless teaser and I wouldn't be surprised if the game changes or is cancelled before then.