The Gaming Den

Lord Snow wrote:Put in another way - if a couple of burly guy snatched you from your home and and brought you to the white house to have lunch with Barack Obama, where he will discuss appointing you as The King of Awesome in the US... you were still kidnapped. Moreover so if you later found out that had you misbehaved during lunch, a sniper would have shout non lethal plastic rounds at your head. Very painful, though of course you would have still lived through it. Oh, and if you disappointed Obama and got shot multiple times? he would still smile by the end of the conversation and say, "mah, you are the best I have anyway. You are still hired".

One of the things I wonder about is how Iomedae transports the PCs to her realm if there is all the deity non-interference rules going about that doesn't allow them to directly influence the world.

One of the reasons we haven't actually spelled out in print what those "deity non-interference rules" are is so that we don't have to explain that; we can simply make the gods do the things we want them to do or NOT do in order to tell the story that lets the player characters be the heroes.

Slade wrote:James Jacobs:

One of the things I wonder about is how Iomedae transports the PCs to her realm if there is all the deity non-interference rules going about that doesn't allow them to directly influence the world.

One of the reasons we haven't actually spelled out in print what those "deity non-interference rules" are is so that we don't have to explain that; we can simply make the gods do the things we want them to do or NOT do in order to tell the story that lets the player characters be the heroes.

"We didn't say what we meant so we can go around the words we wrote."

Scrivener wrote:If the PCs know the exact scenarios that dieties can intercede then PCs will exploit that and PCs will not be excited or surprised when it happens.

Avoraciopoctules wrote: I'll just elaborate that the first question is a piece of trivia, where the god the PCs are helping out is checking if they memorized her biography and can spout factoids about how cool she is on demand.

James Jacobs wrote: It's necessary because I've seen all sorts of play styles... and it's not that uncommon (for good or for ill) for players (and thus their player characters) to exhibit a level of arrogance and bluster and bravado and self-importance that the idea of playing a character as being subservient to any other NPC is unthinkable.

This is an encounter where the players SHOULD role-play their characters as subservient—they're in the presence of a (supposedly) allied deity, after all. And in most cases, where you've got players who have bought in to the AP's themes by this point... it won't be a problem.

James Jacobs wrote:Also... we've ramped back or retconned or adjusted PLENTY of things before. Just because it gets into print doesn't mean it's carved in stone. Going forward, I suspect we'll NOT be trying to make Iomedae into a heartless sound torturer... that was NEVER the point or intent or goal of this adventure, as a matter of fact, so don't expect us to support that interpretation of her personality going forward.

We don't get everything right on the first try. We try to get as much of it as right as possible, but 100% perfection is not attainable.

James Jacobs wrote:

Drock11 wrote:

James Jacobs wrote:One of the reasons we haven't actually spelled out in print what those "deity non-interference rules" are is so that we don't have to explain that; we can simply make the gods do the things we want them to do or NOT do in order to tell the story that lets the player characters be the heroes.

I think that's understandable, and I don't totally fault that line of thinking on the surface, but in a shared universe with many authors I also think not having any type of rules the deities decide to operate under codified being a slippery road to go down. Sooner or later there is going to be things that blatantly contradict each other, and then people are left with the "the gods work in mysterious ways" reasoning for every plot hole that comes up involving the gods which is pretty unsatisfying (and to blunt kind of a cop out). Or maybe even worse a tangled web of things comes about to explain and justify some things and not others and it makes it worse.

Plus each time something like this happens it creates one data point in the canon that has to be considered each time a future product happens or even in the games we play. Does this mean somebody like Asmodeus could transport people that might not even worship him to his presence and hurt them when he feels like it or finds them unworthy?

Welcome to the complexities of my job.

GâtFromKI wrote:So Iomedae capture the PCs and torture them until they show some respect and they says the things they want them to say.

How is she any different from Asmodeus, again?

Anyway, discussion about alignment will be funnier than ever:
"Now I have sequestrated him, I torture him until he recognizes me as his true master!
- ... Aren't you a paladin?...
- Yes, and I worship Iomedae!"

RadiantPhoenix wrote:

GâtFromKI wrote:So Iomedae capture the PCs and torture them until they show some respect and they says the things they want them to say.

How is she any different from Asmodeus, again?

Palette.

Anyway, discussion about alignment will be funnier than ever:
"Now I have sequestrated him, I torture him until he recognizes me as his true master!
- ... Aren't you a paladin?...
- Yes, and I worship Iomedae!"

So, BoED.

Longes wrote:

RadiantPhoenix wrote:

GâtFromKI wrote:So Iomedae capture the PCs and torture them until they show some respect and they says the things they want them to say.

How is she any different from Asmodeus, again?

Palette.

Anyway, discussion about alignment will be funnier than ever:
"Now I have sequestrated him, I torture him until he recognizes me as his true master!
- ... Aren't you a paladin?...
- Yes, and I worship Iomedae!"

So, BoED.

And apparently people are fine with it, what with all "Good is not nice" statements.

GâtFromKI wrote:Anyway, the answers of James Jacob are quite representative of the main problem in pathfinder: Pathfinder's writers and MCs hate players. They need some players to be able to tell their story, but they despise them.

Therefore, anything the player do is suspect: if he takes an useful feat, it's probably to annoy the MC, if they don't roleplay like the MC wants them to roleplay, it's probably to annoy the MC, and Pcs surely won't roleplay ever if they isn't an incentive or a punishment. Because you know, they come for the beer, not for the roleplay.


So here we are, a shitty encounter with Iomeadae who acts like Asmodeus, because JJ think PC will destroy his great story if she acts like a LG deity. Except it's not a great story: it's a shitty story where a LG god acts like a LE god. In other words, JJ already destroyed his story all by himself by trying to protect it against the PCs.

Antariuk wrote:Well, that circles back to those implied-but-not-explicitly-stated "deity non-interference rules"... Zon-Kuthon won't do it because reasons until some author at Paizo feels like it would make a cool story, and then he will.

Maxus wrote:Deity non-interference rules? I suppose they might look like

-Thou shalt act through mortals. Clerics can have 9th-level spells, but it's up to them what they decide to do with it. If thou're good at picking thy person, they'll advance thine agenda.

-Thou shalt not physically enter the mortal world, unless summoned there by mortals.

-Thou shalt only directly affect the people who worship thee or are aligned with your cause or beliefs in some direct way. Thou might slay all of Asmodeus' worshipers, but then Hextor may slay thine, and then where art thou?

-Thou might causeth a miracle, unpaid by a 9th-level slot, any time thou wish, but thine enemies will know it and be allowed a miracle. One for one.

Kirth Gersen wrote:

Prince of Knives wrote:Never been to Gaming Den

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