TNE: "Broad Classes"

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Post by Username17 »

virgileso wrote:Frank, is there a particular method/theme to each list you're making, particularly in regards to 'role protection'? Full-on curiosity here.
Right now I'm looking at Pretaloka having the most overlap with Asuraloka in that both of them do Blasting as a big thing with Asuraloka getting much better mobility and Pretaloka getting much better cursing. While Tiryagyoni has a lot of overlap with Naraka in that they both get some summoning. But Naraka is a major summoning while Tiryagyoni is a summoning minor and Tiryagyoni is a battlefield control major while Naraka is a battlefield control minor.

In short: you get a better army with Legion of the Damned than you do with Monster Making, but you can more effectively lock down a battlefield with Wall of Thorns than with Grasping Darkness.

So basically we're looking at:
  • Naraka: Summoning, Cursing, Mobility
  • Asuraloka: Mobility, Blasting, Control
  • Tiryagyoni: Control, Summoning, Healing
  • Yama: Cursing, Healing, Summoning
  • Pretaloka: Blasting, Mobility, Cursing
And yes, this means we could fit in a sixth list that was all like Healing, Control, Blasting. Sounds like a job for Svarloka or something.

the key is that everyone should have the ability to do a little dab here and there. Tree Stride isn't terribly good or important, but it is a mobility power, and it is on the Tiryagyoni list. If you're someone who actually specializes in mobility you get lots of abilities to move stuff around.

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Post by Username17 »

Catharz wrote:Also: is "personal power points" a placeholder or a serious mechanic?
Right now it's a serious mechanic. One of the things that I am doing to avoid burnout while writing between embryology study sessions is to rotate projects as I have ideas. Current front and mid-burner projects are a WoD overhaul, Fantastic!, and TNE. DMH is on the back burner, but it will probably snipe most of the rules from the WoD overhaul, so that'll be fine.

Anyway, the WoD thing runs around a thing called "power schedules" where different supernatural types get their power points at different times and can spend them to run their powers. Most solidly, if you're a lycanthrope (whether you be a bagheera, a werewolf, or a nezumi) you get a pile of power points when the moon rises. If you're a vampire (again, whatever you happen to be), you get power points by drinking blood. This can come up one way or another to the advantage of one or the other, as one is based on having downtime and is time agnostic, and the other is based on time and is downtime agnostic. In a game like WoD, both can be an advantage or a disadvantage.

Contrariwise, Fantastic! runs on a recharge mechanic. That is powers that aren't Adventure powers (that can only be called upon once in an adventure), or Continuous powers (that can be called upon whenever) are all Recharge powers that burnout when called upon and can't be used again until they "recharge." Powers test to recharge by rolling a die against their recharge number during the Recovery phase.

For a fantasy game, I think a little bit of both is called for. Some things want an actual daily-type limit and that can be mana-based. And then to keep things interesting, those mana points can be put on different power schedules to rotate around who is at full power.

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Post by virgil »

Speaking of personal power points, that reminds me of earlier mentions in regards to alternate balancing mechanisms for magic systems in comparison to sword-swinging. I thought of varying limitations, ranging from positioning to actions spent to maintain effects to targets require certain conditions before higher grade effects could be used.

Is TNE going to have a relatively universal recharge mechanic and/or tactical consideration element incorporated into the power suites for the varying 'colors'?
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Post by Username17 »

I am in fact manipulating multiple different power schedule systems. It's slow going because it's basically just me out here. But a thing that I'm pretty sure about is that there is no such thing as a "best" power schedule in any ultimate sense. What works the best is decided almost exclusively upon what it is that you're trying to do.

So here's how powers work in Fantastic!:
  • When you use a power it fits into one of three categories, which are even color coded.
    Maneuvers come in three types: Adventure maneuvers can be used just once in an Adventurer. For ease of reference, these maneuvers are titled in Bold Red. Charge maneuvers become unusable once used until they recharge during a Recovery phase. These maneuvers have a Recharge number on them that determines their chance of being restored during a Recovery phase, and they are titled in Bold Blue[/b]. And finally there are Unlimited maneuvers that can be drawn on however many times or as continuously as need. They are titled in Bold Green.

    During a Recovery Phase you can roll a die for each of your spent Recharge[/b] powers, and it has a Recharge number, and f you get that number or better you can use it again.
This encourages people to blast away and at the same time causes people to run down and get unpredictable second winds and stuff. It works for a superheroic game because no one has any powers that anyone cares about non-combat spamming. Caring about that sort of thing just isn't what you do.

On the other hand, AWoD has power points and extremely distinct methods of getting them back. That is, Vampires get power points back by feasting on the living and Wererats get their power points back by watching the moon rise. These are incredibly distinct events and it is entirely possible that both, none, or just one of those events will happen between one major encounter and another. Since it's ideally a political game rather than a dungeon crawl most of the time, time management is actually part of the game, and having a team with mixed schedules on when they can use their super moves is actually part and parcel of the idea of moving spotlights in such a storytelling concept.

Now TNE doesn't have the luxury of having its genre so clearly defined for it. Characters "in fantasy" have been portrayed doing anything from the seven day battle to the five minute workday. Seriously. In actual folkloric source material even, rather than just gaming systems.

So modeling what it is that people are "supposed" to do is pretty difficult. It lays an indelible stamp on the game and the story no matter how you slice it.

So anyway: here's the thing I'm currently wargaming - Loading Powers. That is, you have an incredibly modest mana supply that is relatively difficult, but not impossible, to refill. In order to use a super move you have to pay a "load cost" to start it charging.Then when your Recovery Phase comes around you roll a die to see whether it is ready or not. And then it starts checking to see if it stops being ready on subsequent turns if you haven't used it already. And the load cost is gone either way.

This encourages people to Sailor Moon out where at some point late in the battle they are like "I'm going to fucking Firestorm now!" And yeah, that seems to work pretty well. Also it benefits ambushes somewhat since the attacking team will presumably open up with one of their super attacks, but the other people on their team will still be waiting for theirs to be ready. And once the battle starts, anyone still waiting for their stone rain to come due is at no advantage over anyone else. But no one is going to run around with a super move queuing during normal business hours because they will run out of mana.

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Post by Judging__Eagle »

And then it starts checking to see if it stops being ready on subsequent turns if you haven't used it already. And the load cost is gone either way.
I like that part. A lot.
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Post by NoDot »

Question from the newb: can you have multiple attacks loaded at once?
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Post by TavishArtair »

FrankTrollman wrote:So anyway: here's the thing I'm currently wargaming - Loading Powers. That is, you have an incredibly modest mana supply that is relatively difficult, but not impossible, to refill. In order to use a super move you have to pay a "load cost" to start it charging.Then when your Recovery Phase comes around you roll a die to see whether it is ready or not. And then it starts checking to see if it stops being ready on subsequent turns if you haven't used it already. And the load cost is gone either way.
Whatever happened to this idea? Did it receive any further refinement? It also never specified what "difficult but not impossible" to refill meant, really.
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Post by Username17 »

Well as you can currently see, Lago is getting all butt hurt over the idea of not knowing when your power is going to come online.

Apparently despite the fact that characters in every media that is being referenced do a lot of minor looking shit in between casting their big spells it is somehow genre destroying if they are doing that because they have to rather than because their players are morons who haven't figured out that the Crimson Bands R teh Roxxor.

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Post by JonSetanta »

FrankTrollman wrote:Well as you can currently see, Lago is getting all butt hurt over the idea of not knowing when your power is going to come online.
There are many solutions for that but IMO it comes down to a matter of picking the most appropriate one.
Note that I didn't say The Right One. Plenty of concepts would fit, it just has to be agreed upon or filibustered.
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Post by Ice9 »

You can still do Loading Powers without as much randomness though - you could even do it with fixed values (X rounds to load, stays loaded for Y rounds), although that would make ambushes brutally effective.

As a midpoint, instead of rolling each round, you could have the loading and unloading time be random, but rolled when the loading process starts and known to the player. So for example, 1d4 rounds to load, stays loaded 2d4 rounds - I start loading a power and at that point know it will take, say, 2 rounds to load and last 5 rounds. The advantage would be that you can plan ahead from these results without it crashing down on a whim of the dice.

As far as the suspension of disbelief issue, a solution could be to allow "unloaded" use of certain powers at significantly reduced effect. So you can still use "fastball special" without loading it, but all it does is move your ally somewhere - they don't get an attack or bonus from it.
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Post by Username17 »

That still makes ambushes horrendously effective.

Any time you spend points now and get bad assery in the future and you know ahead of time when that future is going to be, it represents a huge boost to ambushers.

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Post by JonSetanta »

Random load time? ehh... Let's have a bit of reliability in that. I wouldn't be pleased if powers crapped out after a round or two while some random BBEG goober happened to get lucky and save theirs for 8.
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Post by Ice9 »

I guess they'd be fairly effective, but really that much more than with the "extra random" system? I don't know what probabilities you're thinking of for it, but given the following:

1) Moves need to charge fast enough that you can almost always use them before the battle is over.
2) Moves need to stay charged at least 2-3 rounds at minimum, so you at least have some choice in when to use them.

Then the chance of multiple people, even most of the party, successfully precharging their specials is pretty high - not much lower than in my alternative.


Even then, it only works if you're talking about the "they're on the other side of this door" type of ambush. Any delay, even a small barricade or some minions hastily thrown in, could block people long enough that they lose their specials.

And for that matter, I'm of the opinion that if you fully get the drop on someone, it should be pretty damn effective. Not as in "guaranteed win", but as in "distinctly uneven chances".
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Post by Elennsar »

Having your Super Special Awesome Attack prepped and able to be sprung on someone -before they can even take an action- is...rather..."guaranteed win".

Even if it isn't enough to win on its own, it gives you a huge advantage, and they have a huge -dis-advantage in being jumped with only their base defenses readied.

Not a combination that combines well for merely "severely disadvantaged".
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Post by MfA »

FrankTrollman wrote:Apparently despite the fact that characters in every media that is being referenced do a lot of minor looking shit in between casting their big spells it is somehow genre destroying if they are doing that because they have to rather than because their players are morons who haven't figured out that the Crimson Bands R teh Roxxor
They have to, but they are generally building up to it ... not just waiting for a random opening. Often because of positioning or because the bad guys have strong defenses (ie. buffs) which have to be negated first.

In fiction it's tactical, these rules would not be played as such in character. Retroactively saying "just as planned" when there was no real planning in previous rounds just doesn't feel right.
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Post by Ice9 »

Having your Super Special Awesome Attack prepped and able to be sprung on someone -before they can even take an action- is...rather..."guaranteed win".
Well then Frank's version would be "guaranteed win" too. Keep in mind, we're not talking "pure random" vs "not random", we're just talking more vs less random. With the original version, you can already guarantee one person having their move charged, and most likely multiple people. The change just means that you know how many people will be able to sync up from the start.
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Post by Elennsar »

I'm not saying I like Frank's version - personally, I think Super Special Awesome Attacks are fucked up as a -concept- (taking advantage of the situation to do something is cool. Having "Climb a mutant elephant using your own arrows and then shoot it in the neck" as a power that treats your bow attacks as crits if you make a Climb check and yada yada is what I'm bothered by...and anyone who cares can kindly ask why elsewhere.), but at least with being random, you can't -count- on it.

Maybe you have it, maybe you don't. So SOME ambushes go wildly batshit crazy overwhelming in round 0, but you don't give ambushers the power to do that in every single ambush.
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Post by Ice9 »

Well how would you prevent people from doing that, exactly? Make power access 100% random (as in, you don't know until the start of a round what powers you'll have that round)? I think brutal ambushes are better than making tactical planning impossible.

And for that matter, precharging your powers doesn't work in roadside ambushes, ambushes where you're more than a round away from the target, ambushes where you don't know the target's exact position, or any ambush where the target can delay you attacking them for even a round or two. Which leave a lot less than "every single ambush".

Edit: I just realized that even with purely random power access, you can still ambush people - just wait until a round where most of your party has good powers available, then have someone without a good power be the one to open the door.
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Post by Elennsar »

And for that matter, precharging your powers doesn't work in roadside ambushes, ambushes where you're more than a round away from the target, ambushes where you don't know the target's exact position, or any ambush where the target can delay you attacking them for even a round or two. Which leave a lot less than "every single ambush".
It works in every single ambush where you have the opportunity to attack with the power/s in question.

I don't like the idea of people having TTAB! powers - if something is too lethal to be an every-attack-does-this, there ought to be something that makes it so that it takes longer to use or something of that sort.

Its not that I mind ambushes, but being able to -get any attack off at all- in an ambush is an advantage that the other guy doesn't get until after you -get- your attack, and usually defenders are in a bad defensive position for one reason and another when ambushed (and then there are things like being flat footed, as D&D put it)

But if the best things you can do require spending time in combat studying and acting in the combat, "spring a surprise attack" is a lot less overwhelming.
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Post by Crissa »

I rather got the idea Lago wants to be able to plan when his power comes online, rather than tripping over it when it does. Shooting the oliphant a random number of times waiting for the 'climb colossus' power to proc isn't fun. But knowing that if you target it with two full-round attacks or manage to hit it n times, you can plan for.

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Post by TavishArtair »

I think having the load time be random is fine if there is an upper limit on the amount of time you can spend waiting to load. This could even be a property of the specific move in particular, with less effective moves (but probably less MP intensive) charging faster. You could also have them take more or less time to "deactivate," depending.

In this case, there is still an element of player control, since we want that, but the control is essentially in what kind of risks they wish to take.

MP is only really needed with that kind of setup in order to stop people from attempting to load their highest-level power all the time and randomly having it on when a fight starts. Hmm.
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Post by Ice9 »

Just thought of an alternative to MP. What if, after unloading a power, it went into a "non-loadable" state for a comparatively long time (a couple minutes would be enough, probably)? So if you try to walk around with your powers loaded all the time, you have, say, a 3/4 chance of them being unavailable when you actually enter a fight.
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Post by Elennsar »

Cooldown (as Blizzard puts it) and duration they can be active (which is considerably shorter than the cooldown)? That's a thought.
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Post by TarkisFlux »

I'd be happy with a combination of stuff here and in the other thread.

You can load your power whenever, and its cost comes out of a daily pool of whatever. You get to roll for it to be ready, but retain the option of using it before it's ready at a substantial penalty. It's still ready after you randomly roll a certain number, but you can perform actions (detailed in the power) that give you cuumulative bonuses to your roll. If you do that thing several/lots of times it will be fully readied within some time frame, even if you roll ass all the time. Once it's ready, you can do some other, similar action to reduce your likelihood of losing it randomly, but this should scale downward so you can't keep it forever by just repeating an action while you wait to use it. We tune the 'ready' and 'retain' actions to the power in question, but could use things like full attack some guys, use other powers, defend something, don't take damage, whatever.

It should leave you with a power that you can ready when you want, cna use when you want, and you can still work towards using it at full capacity or hold out a bit longer for an opening after it is ready. It doesn't entirely eliminate the random aspects of it, but it does bring player choice and planning back in without also making ambushes worse (subject to details of course).
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Post by TavishArtair »

How about Free powers, which are spammable endlessly, Limited powers, which come on line very quickly but can't be used every round, and Signature powers, which you generally only have a few of, explode everything in a characteristic way.

You can choose to charge a power at any time in your turn. Declare which power you are charging, and roll the Charge Die (a d6) at the beginning of your next Upkeep. On a roll of 4 or greater, you successfully charge a Limited power. On a roll of 6 or greater, you successfully charge a Signature power. This makes it available to use.

On successive rounds, you can continue to attempt to charge a power. Reduce the target number by 1 each time. You may begin to charge another power at any time, but you must begin again at its normal target number.

If you begin your Upkeep phase with a power charged, roll the Charge Die, even if you are not charging a power. On a 3 or less, Signature powers lose charge and are considered spent with no effect. On a 1 or less, Limited powers lose charge and are considered spent with no effect.

Whether because of use or loss, spent powers do not return rapidly. If you begin your Upkeep with a power spent, you may roll the Charge Die, even if you are not charging a power or have a power that may lose charge. On a 6 or better, restore any one Limited power. After 5 minutes of rest, all Limited and Signature powers are recharged.

This adds a small measure of predictability while retaining the original design, I think, and is a bit similar to Fantastic! If you want, you can cap the chance for charging a power at a TN of 2+. I've not really included a "per day" power schedule here, admittedly.

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