Lago's Kickass D&D-Book Marketing Strategy!

[Thymos]

Bruce R Cordell made the Psion for 4e?

[Lago PARANOIA]

So. How would you get the grognards back on board with 5th Edition?

A lot of people are nostalgic for sacred cows that I think should remain dead and buried, like experience for gold or random hit points a level.

However, if 4th Edition's numbers are to be believed (6 million fans, losses of hundreds of thousands of books to piracy) then there is a huge untapped market here just of disgruntled fans. Now while a good edition would bring them onboard, how would you really bring them home? Here's what I would do.

- Release two videogames that use the new engine within a couple of months after the game comes out. One of them will be a Neverwinter-nightsish game that has two important features: user customization and brings in an old setting that grognards remember but haven't used in awhile. The other one will be a cheapie freeware Old Skool kind of game in the vein of Dungeon Hack or Krynn or even Realms of Arkania.

- For the new edition, put the default game in a setting that grognards recognize but newbies won't. If you're using Forgotten Realms or Greyhawk as the base then retcon the setting back to what it was in 1st or 2nd Edition, minus some of the stupider elements like Elminster.

- Have the books written in a more conversational tone. One thing that struck me about previous books is that it was written in a voice, like you were actually talking to the game designers. I think that's part of the appeal of the Tomes. One thing I will never understand about 3.5E is that it eliminated Tweet/Cook/William's voices and made it more clinical. Going back to form could make it feel more oldskool.

- Artwork. I know it'll cause a clash in styles, but goddammit, one of the things I liked in 3rd Edition was the clashing artwork. So let's bring back some of the older artists. Also have more things drawn in a swords-and-sandals style rather than the slick modern style of today's books.

[ggroy]

[Lago PARANOIA]

Now then, settings.

Personally, I think 3rd Edition D&D went in the wrong direction when it decided to push the triumvirate of Greyhawk / FR / Eberron. Partially because there's too much damn overlap between the settings; if you're happy with Forgotten Realms, why would you check out Greyhawk or Eberron?

So. Let's see what we should keep and what we should cut.

Greyhawk: This setting is the albatross around our necks. It's so wonderfully generic that having this setting be the default campaign that it reduces interest in other games. But it also IMO isn't strong enough to exist on its own. The problem is that it has a weird grandfather clause in it that mandates that it be included in every edition. Argh.

I have a solution to this, though, at the bottom.

Dark Sun: Definite keeper. Gets the grognards on board and is also different enough from other settings that we aren't retreading old material by keeping it onboard.

Ravenloft: Definite keeper, though I don't think it right now has enough strength in its own brand to have its own grindhouse.

Forgotten Realms: Cash cow. This should definitely have its own grindhouse after WotC leeches off of the initial campaign setting book.

Dragonlance: Definite grindhouse material. I think that WotC (if they still own D&D 5E) should just kick this straight over to Weiss with a license and tell them to have fun.

Mystara: This should go on the chopping block, but we're going to need this setting as cover to eliminate Greyhawk.

Planescape: Keeper, but partial grindhouse material. The basic elements like the elemental planes and the alignment wheel should be done in-house because the nature of the setting. That is, people tend to use Planescape as an upper-deck campaign setting once they outgrow their old one. So it behooves us to make sure that the basics are sane but the particulars can be done in grindhouses.

Spelljammer: Should go on the chopping block. I don't even think grognards care much for this setting anymore.

Eberron: Should go on the chopping block. It feels too much like Forgotten Realms with a facelift. It got introduced at the tail end of 3rd Edition and is languishing in 4th Edition without much support. I think that it can be safely axed.

Al-Qadim: Discussed below. If you don't think that my plan is workable, then this should go into the same category of material as Ravenloft.

Rokugan: Discussed below. If you don't think that my plan is workable, then WotC (or whoever) should release Oriental Adventures and then turn over the setting to a grindhouse.


Okay, here's my plan to eliminate Greyhawk. First of all, we take an obscure but nostalgic setting like Mystara. We give it the FR-treatment, fixing the more stupid/game-breaking elements. Since it has less of a hold on its fans than Greyhawk and FR we can give it a much bigger facelift.

Next... we take another setting or two out there and then fuse it with Mystara. I suggest fusing it with Al-Qadim, Rokugan, and/or if you can get the license for it the Adventuria/Dark Eye setting. I recommend the latter strictly as a marketing ploy... we're using elements from a famous European late 80's RPG! But since a lot of people aren't familiar with it we can add things we need to it. The end result here is to have a new setting that works fine as a default world but isn't so painfully generic that it reduces interest in other settings.

[Roy]

Nix Eberron? Seriously? Late or not, it's about the only setting that was worth a damn for 3.5. And since 3.5 held up a lot better...

[MGuy]

I agree with Roy. But then again I am biased because I came into DnD when Eberron was put out and its the first thing that got me into even looking at campaign settings.

[Roy]

Campaign Setting wise I looked at FR, and never got past the 'lol, let's wank to Elminster and friends' and 'lol, let's make up superpower shit for our wank characters' to actually see a point to the campaign. And when you ignore all that you just get Ye Olde Generic Fantasy World, now with 100% more magic tacked on (and 100% less thinking things through)! It was physically painful to read, and I didn't notice Incantrix and Greenbound etc for a while for exactly that reason.

Then I picked up an Eberron book. First I was like what the fuck, but then I realized that hey, this shit is actually believable and makes some fucking sense! HUZZAH!

[ggroy]

[Lago PARANOIA]

Forgotten Realms is to be a worse campaign setting than Eberron.

But Forgotten Realms has videogames, comics, and novels published off of the setting. Eberron doesn't have any of this.

So while I would rather get rid of FR, FR is a cash cow and has squatters' rights. Eberron has too much overlap in theme and function from FR so it needs to go first.

[RandomCasualty2]

WotC just reprints the old 1E AD&D books, while slapping a "5th edition" logo on the front cover. 8)

I would love to see that.

"People liked 1st edition... lets just reprint that. It's not like anyone will recognize it. Those 1E players have to be dead by now, right? "

[MGuy]

I looked at Eberron and said. Wow they have a lot of mysteries. I looked at FR and said why do people keep killing the goddess of magic if it aways just fux everything up? I looked at Dragonlance and said this looks like a Saturday morning kid's TV show with 50% more dragons. I looked at Greyhawk and said "no". I looked at Planescape and said: This is how the planes work in any campaign I build. I looked at Rokugan/All-Quadim and said this is some nice exotic stuff, I'm going to pluck ideas from here, here annnnd her. I looked at Ravenloft and said: nice idea too many undead. I've never looked at Mystiria/Dark Sun/Spell Jammer.

I'd agree to keep FR as a cash cow. I think Dragonlance should keep itself as a fantasy novel and leave it at that. I think Eberron is actually good (the plans complained so much that they didn't do rusty bladed surgery on it like they did on FR). Planescape is great for what it is. Ravenloft is a good spooky setting. Greyhawk is forgettable. I don't have any real strong opinions as to what to do with the rest.

[Username17]

Eberron is pointless. It's just another D&D setting that collapses under its own weight if people over tenth level look at it funny. I mean sure, it has "the war" to explain why your party are the first people in your area to hit high level, but it's the same deal.

If you're going to make a 5e flagship setting, make damn sure that the rules and the world are written together so that they support one another. Don't do a half assed piece of crap like Eberron or Dragonlance.

The high brow derived settings for AD&D 2nd edition were Spelljammer, Planescape, and Darksun. If you want a less apeshit setting, you need to write in less apeshit rules. But don't fucking insult me by handing me an apeshit rule set and another fucking LotR knockoff with a few extra playable races that I don't care about.

-Username17

[virgil]

Frank, you are the only person I've seen that's even implied a level of quality with Spelljammer. Everyone I've talked to about it can only think of the giant space hamsters and consider the entire thing a joke.

I mean, it's an entire culture built around an abundance of what 3E would consider minor artifacts. It takes the very fun idea of seafaring campaigns and incorporates the fantastical. It's got the option for serial plot you could get out of Buck Rogers, all the while allowing for a D&D equivalent to Firefly at the same time. And yet, I can't ever find someone willing to touch it with a 10' mast.

[Lago PARANOIA]

Guys, my proposal for a flagship fusion setting is just a marketing gambit.

The point is to make a setting that's interesting without being a LotR clone but also have grognards scratch their heads and go 'oh yeah, Adventuria. I've heard of that before.

So the actual setting is written from the ground-up but elements from those other campaign settings are retrofitted to, you know, work. You can't do that with Greyhawk/Forgotten Realms/Eberron because there are just too many people who are attached to those settings and they'll complain if we pull a fast one by getting rid of Mystra or Mordenkainen.

So we dig in our coffers, fuse together two new settings and then advertise it as 'after 20 years, Al-Qadim RETURNS!' even though it only has enough elements in it for people to go 'hey, is that one king still there? He sure is!'

Unfortunately, due to the Medieval European bias of gamers, we'll have to set the default campaign setting to be one of these. Pity. I really think the game could use a heroic fantasy game set in, say, the height of Inca or Ethiopian civilization.

[Lago PARANOIA]

Regardless, my main point is that for 5th Edition the staff should first focus on bringing back disaffected old fans.

It's not like Nintendo, who can make Wii dominant again by releasing things like Wii Sports. Tabletop RPGers require a specific breed of nerd in order to play so we should go for the low-hanging fruit first: people who we know like to play tabletop RPGs but are pissed at D&D right now.

I think an appeal to nostalgia/snobbery would help out a lot. Then when we get these people on board 5th Edition can focus on growing the pie higher, like releasing videogames people like and publishing 'fringe' campaign settings that appeal to people outside of the hobby, such as Final Fantasy or Mouseguard Redwall.

[Username17]

Frank, you are the only person I've seen that's even implied a level of quality with Spelljammer. Everyone I've talked to about it can only think of the giant space hamsters and consider the entire thing a joke.

I mean, it's an entire culture built around an abundance of what 3E would consider minor artifacts. It takes the very fun idea of seafaring campaigns and incorporates the fantastical. It's got the option for serial plot you could get out of Buck Rogers, all the while allowing for a D&D equivalent to Firefly at the same time. And yet, I can't ever find someone willing to touch it with a 10' mast.

I wouldn't accuse Spelljammer of being good, only of being thought out. Magic items accumulate and monsters are destroyed, civilization moves the borders back relentlessly and soon it covers the entire world. And then magic items and bad asses continue to accumulate and the horizons are moved to new worlds filled with team monster or where civilization has not yet conquered its challenges and there are galactic threats and yadda yadda yadda.

It follows logically from D&D rules and provides a backdrop in which your character can have meaningful world changing adventures without destroying the setting. Very well thought out.

Unfortunately, it's based on AD&D space stuff. And AD&D science fiction crossovers were incredibly juvenile.

-Username17

[MGuy]

The grognards, disaffected, and people looking for something beyond LOTR are unfortunately in the minority. The majority of people who play the game are looking for effective and familiar fun. Throwing out the fan favorites isn't gonna win as a gambit. Some people will latch on to the idea but most will gripe and moan that you took their favorite toy away while others will just home brew their favorite setting back to life which will have people flocking to the fan sites while the angry nerds undercut potential sales of the byproduct of all of this. I've skimmed a bit and gleaned a word or two about Golarion and really there's nothing particularly new or fantastic about it. I like Eberron myself but I've been told a million times by older fans that its horse crap compared to older settings. In the end to make bank you're gonna have to play to the crowd. Both Eberron and FR have the homegrown fans that, as long as things are handled delicately, will be happy to see their fave setting make a return in 5E. But if you do something like butcher the setting, even if you're trying to make it into something truly tasteful you're gonna see diminishing returns. WotC have been catching shit left and right over the restart they did to FR (even though its been done before) and received enough flung feces over Eberron to leave it miraculously untouched. That's not to say that you can't make another option out of things you get from these settings but for marketing purposes you have to play to the crowd. Even Paizo has been careful to to overtly say that Golarion is better than FR/Eberron. They're pitch is that its something "new' and "Exciting"

[Lago PARANOIA]

Which is why Eberron and Forgotten Realms, after WotC skims off of the top, are destined to become grindhouse material.

If we turn over fanboy settings to the actual asylum then it's no skin off of WotC's nose if the settings turn out to be crap.

I'm just saying that the default setting that 5th Edition gets released with should not try to compete with fanboy settings. It should be its own thing where people don't go 'why should I care about Eberron/Forgotten Realms? I'm already playing Greyhawk' or whatever.

So go after a piece of the pie the fanboy settings aren't fighting over.

[JonSetanta]

Spelljammer is Pirates of Dark Water... IN SPACE!
Without the water or the dark. Well, there's crystal spheres and fire...

Eberron does get congratulations for pulling out of the homebrew category in to genuine publication, and it can't be ignored as a major draw for new gamers.
If appealing to grognards alone, sure, leave out Eberron. No island of giants.
No Dragon Special Dragon Dragon Tattoos. No "It's not actually a Wizard" Artificers.
No furry Shifters, no Teenage Mutant Ninja Warforged, and certainly no Lightning Rail.

As much as I personally hate Eberron, I'll admit it's a big lure for players seeking to avoid the overdone Faerun-style pantheons and "It looks old" complaints.
Without a Magic-CCG-style RPG setting you've just alienated over 50% of your customers, most of them teenagers looking for an RPG setting that their ancestors didn't play. That's not good for business.

I'd say the grognard sector is a lost cause, other than for spreading hype and building general interest without increasing sales directly.
WOTC probably took the same approach.

[ggroy]

[Username17]

Without a Magic-CCG-style RPG setting you've just alienated over 50% of your customers, most of them teenagers looking for an RPG setting that their ancestors didn't play. That's not good for business.

I totally agree.

Which is why the two flagship settings for 5e should be Mystarra and Arcanis.

-Username17

[Lago PARANOIA]

Explain why these two campaign settings should be the flagship.

[Orca]

I'd guess that the idea is for Mystara to appeal to grognards and Arcanis used to drag in new players.

But I don't think Mystara will appeal to enough grognards. My personal opinion would be that you'd be better with FR - I like Eberron better, though you need to run it with something like E6 or it hurts your brain, but FR's more popular.

Arcanis seems to be created by another company, Paradigm Concepts. I don't know anything else about it, but wouldn't a theoretical company which bought the rights to D&D want to use something it had the rights to? Either something new entirely, which'd be my choice to attract new gamers, or one of the others on that list, maybe Dragonlance (Dungeons and DRAGONS!).

[ggroy]

[JonSetanta]

I totally agree.

Actually I was agreeing to other comments here, which often refer to your own proposals.
Indirectly, agreeing to yourself.
You've just become your own grandfather.

Ridiculousness aside, I don't seem to recall; what is Arcanis other than a broken Magic card?