Magic as a D&D Edition Setting

[Ice9]

But actual mythology is full of much crazier examples of crossbreeding.

Ok, so why does crazy crossbreeding suddenly become a bad thing when it isn't from Tolkien? If you want a "humans only" setting, that's fine - but I think it's a bit silly to scoff at Shifters and Changelings while playing Half-Elves and Half-Orcs.

[angelfromanotherpin]

But actual mythology is full of much crazier examples of crossbreeding.

Ok, so why does crazy crossbreeding suddenly become a bad thing when it isn't from Tolkien? If you want a "humans only" setting, that's fine - but I think it's a bit silly to scoff at Shifters and Changelings while playing Half-Elves and Half-Orcs.

For the record, I don't have a problem with crazy crossbreeding in the appropriate sort of mythic or kitchen-sink fantasy. That's someone else's gig.

But to reiterate, D&D half-elves and half-orcs have their source in a setting where the three parent races are specifically subspecies. Just that pretense of biology makes their offspring a lot easier to swallow than 'I fucked someone under a curse and our kid inherited some of the curse, and that happened with a lot of other couples, and now all our descendants live together in the woods breeding true as semi-cursed people' or 'I fucked a shapeless thing of a different creature type, and we had a kid... somehow... who could shapeshift a little, and the same thing happened to a lot of other couples, and now all our descendants live together in fringe communities passing as other races and breeding true as limited shapeshifters.'

[name_here]

You know, it strikes me that the problem with reusing Mirrodian for M:TG is that they kind of killed the entire planet at the end of the last set of books and reincarnated them on another planet that isn't nearly as cool. It looks like they're hastily and poorly retconning that.

[Prak]

I tap my Rakdos Carnarium for a black and red, cast Raise Dead, pull Magic as a D&D Edition Setting from the grave and cast it.

Mirrodin was brought back because the phyrexians said "ooh, a planet full of metal shit. Let's invade!" as well as some retconning about Karn being infected with Phyrexian Oil, which then tainted the guardian he made for the world he created, Mirrodin. When the guardian died, the oil tainted the plane, and it's people split into "New Phyrexian" and "Save Mirrodin" factions.

[RadiantPhoenix]

Mirrodin was brought back because the phyrexians said "ooh, a planet full of metal shit. Let's invade!" as well as some retconning about Karn being infected with Phyrexian Oil

Well, it was explicitly mentioned back in the first book that had Karn in it that he had a Phyrexian component in him, so I'm not sure if I'd call it a ret-con.

"Well, you were right," Barrin said quietly. "Xantcha's heart was the key. Her affective and intellectual cortexes must be intact, as you had thought. We can be thankful that none of her memories remain, or her personality-apparently. Still, I have to wonder about the wisdom of placing what amounts to a Phyrexian matrix into the head of your most powerful and advanced creation. I could have achieved the same effect with an animation spell-"

(bold mine)

[Prak]

Ah, ok. I didn't read those books (I've read the Artifact trilogy, and the Onslaught trilogy), so I figured it was a retcon.

[Red_Rob]

So, thinking about a MtG hack for D&D, you'd really want the following key concepts from Magic to be in some way represented in the game: The concept of Mana, the colour wheel, the iconic races and classes, Artifacts and Planeswalkers.

Now, what things from D&D would you have to change? Well, the idea of races and classes can stay, and Mana maps to level pretty well. Implementing color would mean rewriting the classes and magic system, and probably feats while you were at it. I see races and classes as being tied to the colours, with your final combination giving you a colour mix that qualifies you for feats and such. So Elves are green, Goblins are Red, Clerics are white and Assassins are Black. An Elven Cleric would be Green/White, a Goblin Assassin would be Red/Black. There should probably be some kind of "same colour synergy" for picking the same colour race and class to prevent grabbing as many colours as possible always being the best option. Your colours would qualify you for different powers as you level up, with some given by your class and some picked from a more general list, and they would have minimum mana (level) requirements to take.

Should Mana be an actual resource in the game? I could see you getting your mana to spend on special actions each turn. A basic move or attack should probably cost no mana, but each class would be able to 'juice' these with Rage or Death Attack bonuses, or get special attacks such as flame blasts by spending the appropriate mana. Every class having magical power in this way should make it easier to keep the classes fairly balanced.

Here's a quick mock-up of the basic races and classes:

Colour	Race1	Race2	Race3
Red	Human	Goblin	Dwarf
Green	Human	Elf	Catfolk
White	Human	Leonin	Aven
Blue	Human	Merfolk	Vedalken
Black	Human	Vampire	Imp

Colour	Basic Class
Red	Berserker
Red/Green	Shaman
Green	Druid
Green/White	Archer
White	Cleric
White/Blue	Monk
Blue	Wizard
Blue/Black	Rogue
Black	Assassin
Black/Red	Mercenary

Would something like this have legs?

[CapnTthePirateG]

Playable slivers?

[Foxwarrior]

Only if you either play an entire sliver hive, or you can treat your teammates as Slivers when they're really Elves.

Dwarves aren't a significant creature type, Red_Rob. Viashino would be much more appropriate.

[JigokuBosatsu]

This idea certainly has legs. One of the first things I did when joining this forum years ago was to necro a long thread that Frank and Ceilingcat had used to come up with some great ideas. Can't seem to find that one now, but several other discussions like this are easily searchable.

[hyzmarca]

It would probably be just chuck the D&D magic rules altogether and completely import the Magic rules in their place.

[Surgo]

Holy thread necromancy, Batman.

If we're going to bring up stupid shit like the Magic books, we should discuss the most hilarious ways they could be improved. Right now, they're basically the worst fantasy novels ever but they aren't even enjoyably bad like some MST3K movies.

What's the best way to make bad fantasy into hilariously bad fantasy? IMO: add sex scenes.

Besides, I'm pretty sure those are all computer-generated after the fact. Some developer and marketing guy probably got together and went "Hey, the whole Mirrodin artifact-world was pretty cool: let's revisit that concept!" Then they had their computer program spit out a bunch of paperback novels to fill out the "why are we revisiting this" lore.

[Prak]

I basically see Colour as replacing alignment, but getting colour tendencies from your race and class isn't necessarily a bad idea. Some classes might require you to be aligned with a certain colour, like Assassin requiring you to be black aligned, Barbarian requiring red (there are two non-red barbarians, one is a zombified barbarian, the other is from an only vaguely-acknowledged beginner instructor set, Portal Three Kingdoms), Berserker should require Red or Green (with one exception of a black Berserker card...). On the other hand, maybe it should just be tendencies. Most assassins are black, but there is one each red and blue assassin, because their colour is following their race (goblin and merfolk respectively). Most barbarians are red, but maybe it's ok to have black and green barbarians, but not blue or red. Hell, for flexibility sake, lets say that some classes require you to be a certain colour, or one of it's allied colours (the colours next to a colour on the pentagon on the back of the card. So Green is allied with white and red. Red is allied with green and black, etc.)

So basically every character is potentially three colours. Their race gives them a vague tie to a colour, their class another, and then they pick a third that is the colour of their personality. So an Elven Shaman who strongly believes in following the natural order is Green. An Angel Assassin with anger management issues is White-Black-Red. A Merfolk Wizard who likes logic and technology could be pure Blue, or could be Blue and almost any other colour, depending on his magic.

As for playable slivers... if I have anything to say about it, there sure as fuck will be.

[zugschef]

in this case "alignment" is more like "affiliation" as in warcraft's "alliance" or "horde".

[Username17]

Color, Class, and Race should definitely be independent variables. A casual stroll through card lists shows that while almost all the Elves are Green, there are some White, Red, and even Black Elves. And not all the Black Elves are Assassins, some are Wizards or even Druids. A non-Green Elf is exceptional, a non-Green Druid is exceptional, but a player character is by definition exceptional. So I really can't see the justification for telling players that they can't play a class-race-color combination just because it's rare.

-Username17

[zugschef]

So I really can't see the justification for telling players that they can't play a class-race-color combination just because it's rare.

yes, it's just a setting guideline for the mc.

[ETortoise]

The color/class/character question has been on my mind for a while now.

Would it be viable to make the classes few in number and have the customization come from picking color(s) and abilities?

Say you have Robes-guy, Leather-guy and Armor-guy as the class options. They give you the basic chassis of attack progression, hit die, saves and whatnot; they also tell you how many and what kind of powers you get. Powers are associated by color and also grouped into categories.

I suppose it's sort Book of Nine Swords for everyone, but instead of White Raven it's just White.

[Red_Rob]

Color, Class, and Race should definitely be independent variables. A casual stroll through card lists shows that while almost all the Elves are Green, there are some White, Red, and even Black Elves. And not all the Black Elves are Assassins, some are Wizards or even Druids. A non-Green Elf is exceptional, a non-Green Druid is exceptional, but a player character is by definition exceptional. So I really can't see the justification for telling players that they can't play a class-race-color combination just because it's rare.

-Username17

The problem with having race and class be totally independent of colour is that whilst there may be the odd card that breaks the rules, when you hear Vedalken in Magic you think blue, and when you hear Soldier you think white. Whereas if you let people mix and match you run the very real risk that due to some odd synergy it makes more sense to have your Soldier be a Green Vampire or some shit, so then that becomes a staple build and suddenly your game seems nothing like Magic. The fact is some of the cards were made before they tightened up the flavour side of things, and others had creature types added in the Great Creature Update to match the art, and as a result there are some off the wall combinations. That doesn't mean you should take that as the standard.

Forcing Goblins to be Red and Assassins to be Black seems like the only way to ensure that the characters you create will resonate with people who know anything about the card game. If you asked a Magic player to describe a Goblin Druid I bet you over 90% would name a Green-Red card. If you allow that combination to be Blue in your RPG you are not representing the source material at all.

[JigokuBosatsu]

Say you have Robes-guy

Leather-guy

and Armor-guy

[zugschef]

Say you have Robes-guy

Leather-guy

and Armor-guy

@Red_Rob: don't you think that gaming tables can decide for themselves?

[Prak]

Basically I'm thinking people have three part affiliations, your class gives you a choice of three, your race gives you a specific colour, or possibly a choice at the cost of some minor thing, and then you pick a colour that is your personality. Then we can add backgrounds to allow players to say "Yeah, I'm an elf, but I grew up in the swamps of Urborg, so my racial colour is black, not green."

[Sigil]

I think it might be best if you limit it to two colors at level 1. Dual colored cards are very common, tri/quad/penta colored cards much less so (except in sets where this is a specific gimmick). So you have the color assigned by your race, and a single other color of your choice. Background options can let you alter your racial background. You could even have some sort of small but measurable bonus for choosing a color that aligns with your racial color (something like the +1 hp per level that taking a favored class does in PF). It would be reasonable to allow a character to gain additional color affinities though feats (no, not a feat that just gives you a color affinity, one that also does something else that's cool) and PrCs.

It also occurs to me that the concept of Resource Points that I brought up in the Man and Machine thread would be much better suited to the colors of Mana.

[fectin]

Tangentially relevant:
http://mixedknuts.wordpress.com/2013/05/14/729/

I haven't played in a decade, but basically agree with everything that guy says.

[Foxwarrior]

They really made a Sliver that looks like a cross between a bad CGI Predator and a Gorilla? I had to look it up to check that the author wasn't exaggerating for effect.

[Red_Rob]

@Red_Rob: don't you think that gaming tables can decide for themselves?

I think that gamers "decide for themselves" to play whatever the game mechanically encourages. And if Blue Berserkers happen to be good, people will play those even if it makes them feel sad inside. While I can kind of see the appeal of making a special snowflake white Viashino or whatever, at the point everyone is making them they aren't special any more. It just doesn't really feel like Magic.

Now, you need a way to incentivise people to play single colour characters. I was thinking each colour could be super effective against characters that had magic of another colour, like R > W > B > G > U > R. That way having multiple colours gives you more breadth, but makes you susceptible to more enemy attacks. That isn't quite how it works in the card game, but it gets the flavour of enemy colours across in a fashion that works in an RPG.

One issue I can see would be the resource schedules. Having a master "Blue" list that all blue characters draw from would be super awkward if different classes used different resource schemes, but putting everyone on the same one seems kind of dull and flavourless (see 4e).