[OSSR]Epic Level Handbook

Dean · Post by **Dean** » Sat Jan 18, 2014 11:09 pm

Longes wrote:Huh? What Argo? Not Ben Aflec movie, definitely.

Lord of Light is about Hindu mythos and spoilery stuff.

Yup the Ben Affleck movie. The plot of that movie is the CIA made this AWESOME plan where they were gonna fictionally shoot a movie that would need to be filmed in the middle east. So they adapted the novel Lords of Light into a film and told people they were making a Lords of Light movie. Then instead of us getting an actual Lords of Light movie they just saved dozens of stupid peoples lives. LAAAAAAAME.

Actually everything about it is cool. See Argo.

TheFlatline · Post by **TheFlatline** » Sat Jan 18, 2014 11:27 pm

Yeah. After seeing the movie and reading Tony Mendez' autobiography I really wanted to read the original story, but never made the connection.

Wiseman · Post by **Wiseman** » Sat Jan 18, 2014 11:56 pm

Lago PARANOIA wrote:So. What D&D or D&D-inspired viderojames have actually had epic-level campaigns/gameplay (or at least something that approaches epic) that's deliberately put in the hands of players and doesn't just exist in a cutscene?

I'll accept either an epic-level concept or epic-level game effects. I know that video games are inherently limited with what kind of special effects that they can show and moreover one of the hallmarks of epic-level play (open-endedness) are really hard to do on a cRPG. So I'll cut people some slack. Nonetheless, which games at least aspire towards doing so?

DDO does go into epic levels, although it doesn't really feel like epic. You're really doing much of the same, even doing things that should be much lower in level.

One of the main epic adventures is seriously fighting the drow and infiltrating their city (of which I cannot be bothered to even try to spell the name of). Although at the end of that quest you do fight Lolth in person while Elmenster sits on his ass.. (although even that is eventually resolved by her being beaten by some NPC.

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Sun Jan 19, 2014 2:50 am

Neverwinter Nights: WhoresHordes of the Underdark went Epic. It went up to level 30 or 40 or something. Now, as for what you actually got to do that was Epic, I'll list them:

That is all

The way you beat the Devil Lord is by bullshitting with True Names, or just walking up and punching him in the dick. That said, I imagine some people made their own actually-epic stuff. And if you used the PRC, you could research truly Epic spells such as "this entire map is now Winter, with a blizzard. I have very bad news for the NPCs."

RadiantPhoenix · Post by **RadiantPhoenix** » Sun Jan 19, 2014 4:59 am

NWN had several problems, one of which was that its gameplay was 2D, so couldn't fly, swim, jump, or climb.

A second problem is that the interface felt really clunky.

A third problem is that they took out most of the spells that weren't "simple" (blasting, healing, buffing, debuffing, minions). So, no conjuring solid walls between you and your enemies at any level, or even creating illusions of walls.

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Sun Jan 19, 2014 6:56 am

The PRC added jumping, but honestly, it's just short-range teleportation with a chance of falling prone. There's no special effect to being in the air or anything.

Longes · Post by **Longes** » Sun Jan 19, 2014 7:09 am

@Lago
NWN2: Mask of the Betrayer. It's cool, it has plane hopping, you get to murder the Mirkul and the whole universe (in a cutscene)

TheFlatline · Post by **TheFlatline** » Sun Jan 19, 2014 7:36 am

Planescape: Torment doesn't go into epic levels per se, but The Nameless One is pretty much an epic character.

It's also my favorite cRPG of all time.

fectin · Post by **fectin** » Sun Jan 19, 2014 3:01 pm

Mask of the Betrayer is still just bigger fireballs.

Maybe Garry's Mod?

CCarter · Post by **CCarter** » Mon Jan 20, 2014 10:58 am

I guess the conversation's what on but what's everyones favourite epic monster?

The Gargantuan cat with Dex 48 ?
The medium-size undead with Str 52 (heavy load: about 17 short tons)
The living worm spellcaster that could've been a perfectly good non-epic monster?
The scorpion with DC 95 venom (what's an RNG?)
The things that 'specialize in hunting dragons', but which have special defenses mainly against head loss and no flying ability whatever?
Albino superelves with Cha 47 and 50 fey HD?

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Mon Jan 20, 2014 12:28 pm

My favourite is the absolutely lazy "Just add +$TEXAS" CR upgrade template, Paragon. So you can seriously do the MMO thing and now at level 25, you're fighting the same shit you fought at level 3, now with no new abilities, but BIGGAR NUMBARS!

And the example they showed had, possibly amongst other problems, way too many feats. As though they went "Well, obviously it has an ECL and not a CR because someone is playing this!" and then went "So you get 1 Feat at level 1, then 1 every third level - Level Adjustment still counts for feat gain, right? Oh and 1 Bonus from this." Or maybe it didn't even work out to that, which would have been "correct math based on faulty assumptions".

It's not even particularly quick to apply, given it adds a big number to every number, and some of those numbers affect other numbers. At least the Pseudonatural template grants eleventeen tentacle attacks and a Con-Draining submission hold.

BearsAreBrown · Post by **BearsAreBrown** » Mon Jan 20, 2014 2:08 pm

CCarter wrote:I guess the conversation's what on but what's everyones favourite epic monster?

Xixecal

Dragons live on it, permanent winter surrounding it, CL 36 Blasphemy at will, immunity to nearly everything, absurd regen + fasting healing + con drain.

There are obvious problems with it but jesus chrst this is what epic monsters should look like. The most depressing thing about ELH is how fucking awesome some of the concepts are.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Tue Jan 21, 2014 12:59 am

It's a question that's come up a lot before, but what should epic look like? The concept of the Xixecal is, as you say, awesome, and I like the idea that an epic monster should be an environment as much as it is a monster, a la Titans in God of War.

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Tue Jan 21, 2014 1:38 am

Honestly, mountain-sized monsters should be rocking up pre-Epic, but that sounds like a splat book to itself to introduce all the rules for interacting with them.

However, I would be willing to accept an Epic book that was "Okay, after 20th, you can still progress, but you're really just getting [more], your actual powers are pretty much as big as they'll ever be. Your foes are few in number, because they're as big as continents." So the Epic book could really be "Enemies so large they're in multiple time zones. Also you get some advancement after 20th level."

So it wouldn't so much be about what a CR 35 monster is, given the numbers already stopped working, you'd have "CR: Epic". And certain aspects will be easier or harder to tackle, but taking the knees out means the rest of it becomes easier to fight, and so on.

Most of the book would be monster entries (multi-page things), with the basics of post-20th advancement there, and instead of all those bullshit feats, you'd just have one page of feats that specifically aid you in fighting the massive things. The whole Epic Spellcasting chapter? Gone. Maybe you could just have caster progression grant extra spells known of existing levels, or maybe you grant more spell levels that are simply "Take an existing one, meta-magic it up to the new level. It actually is the new and improved spell level now."

Yeah. A paragraph for how Epic spellcasting works, and one page for feats. Something like 5-10 pages could cover all the classes if you're okay with them not getting a whole page each.

Foxwarrior · Post by **Foxwarrior** » Tue Jan 21, 2014 1:50 am

Really, the level at which you first fight a giant monster should be the level at which you can just barely climb it. Therefore, monsters that fully occupy multiple planes should be CR 9-13. (The Cleric casts plane shift, then the Wizard casts teleport)

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Tue Jan 21, 2014 1:50 am

I like the idea of the spell seeds in ELH, but it should be part of the game from first level as a guide to researching new spells, not a completely broken and stupid epic thing.

I do kind of like the idea that the Epic book is really just a monster manual where the monster is also the adventure.

TiaC · Post by **TiaC** » Tue Jan 21, 2014 1:56 am

I just noticed that the Leshay is everything people hate about elves.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Tue Jan 21, 2014 2:19 am

I wonder if elves hate leshay the way people hate elves..

Dean · Post by **Dean** » Tue Jan 21, 2014 2:43 am

Foxwarrior is on it. Just making a monster super huge doesn't add anything but confusion to an encounter. It would not be awesome to have a 10 mile high colossus trying to brush you off him like lint while you Kratos'd your way up him. It's not interesting and it adds complication for nothing. Now the flavor of the things you fight being incredibly large is conducive to Epic but making the monster's arms take separate damage from his head and requiring you to climb onto his head to stab his runic soft-spot is misguided.

Kratos is seriously like 7th level. Expecting anyone to climb anything means you are not designing Epic monsters. Actual epic monsters would need to be beaten in multiple planes simultaneously and have free action save or dies as well as creating environmental conditions that require unusual immunities. They should also have weird attacks and defenses, possibly random ones which have massive Knowledge DC's to let you even know the curveballs it might throw in the fight. It would be a FINE CHALLENGE to make a 30th level party make two 80 DC knowledge checks then split up across 2 planes to fight something making huge AOE attacks for hundreds of damage, using a death effect/petrification aura on anyone within medium range, shooting dispelling eye lasers and regenerating on any death where it wasn't taking lava damage on both planes simultaneously. That would be a fucking fine fight.

The fact that death, distance, planar location, most status effects, most resistances, and most points on the RNG don't even matter anymore means you basically just have to throw enough things in the pot to make the fight something the party needs to at least plan out before jumping in to. If the party spends half an hour talking about the monsters specifics, an hour planning the attack and gathering the requirements and a twenty minutes actually murdering the thing then you have entertained everyone for long enough to take your nightly snack break.

TiaC · Post by **TiaC** » Tue Jan 21, 2014 4:29 am

The Elder Evils do a decent job of seeming like epic threats with their signs. These are effects like: The sun goes out, Every dead body animates, The seas boil and the winds burn, Diseases become all but impossible to resist. Most overwhelming signs would kill 99%+ of life on the planet within a week.

Longes · Post by **Longes** » Tue Jan 21, 2014 4:36 am

TiaC wrote:I just noticed that the Leshay is everything people hate about elves.

What's a "Leshay"?

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Tue Jan 21, 2014 4:42 am

This
A CR 28 elf

Wiseman · Post by **Wiseman** » Tue Jan 21, 2014 5:00 am

So for the Xixical, I'm imaging a giant living mountain, nigh invulnerable to conventional assault. However, there are entrances to caves on it's surface. These caves lead to a labyrinth-like demiplane under a permanant dimensional gate effect. The party has to fight their way to the demiplanes core which is the actual boss. Defeating the core deactivates the Xixical (perhaps only for a time).

Also, the whole mission is timed, as the Xixical is slowly making it's way to populated areas.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Tue Jan 21, 2014 6:14 am

You really need the description to understand what's bad about Leshay:

Epic Level Handbook wrote:As elves are to humans, so are leShay to the elves (but more so): a race immortal, enigmatic, and exceptionally powerful.
LeShay look like tall, thin, albino elves, except that they lack the oversized ears of true elves (leShay ears look more like half-elf ears) and, while they have the glossy dead-white hair of true albinos, their eyes are pits of darkness. Some affect a particular color or style, while others change their outfits from moment to moment. All are deeply concerned with etiquette, decorum, and receiving the respect they feel due; failure to meet their standards of politeness, or simply crossing one of their whims, can often be fatal.
LeShay never die from age or disease; they perish only if killed. LeShay are the mere remnant of a once-great race whose origins are lost to history. They claim to predate the current multiverse and refer darkly to some catastrophe that not only wiped out most of their people but changed time so that their era never existed, even in the remotest past. Attempting to undo the catastrophe would apparently result in another disaster even more terrible, so the decimated survivors—less than gods but more than mortals—for the most part merely attempt to amuse them selves and stave off ennui as they work out their individual destinies.
LeShay have great facility at languages (as per the Polyglot epic feat) and can speak any language within seconds of hearing it spoken for the first time, right down to the most courtly or impressive accent thereof.

COMBAT
LeShay rarely initiate combat, since they prefer to react rather than act. However, their vast experience makes them shrewd judges of others’ capabilities and killed tacticians. Their gaze ability, in addition to their terrible weapons, make them feared opponents.
LeShay are also quick to utilize their spell-like abilities to prep for combat, or flee from it. No LeShay hesitates to run away from a fight that is going against him or her, only to return to the fray when the odds are more favorable, possibly years or even decades later.

NineInchNall · Post by **NineInchNall** » Tue Jan 21, 2014 6:59 am

Prak_Anima wrote:I wonder if elves hate leshay the way people hate elves..

... I played a leShay on a savage progression once. He wore John Lennon shades to hide the crazy eyes and dropped beat poems at every opportunity.

That party also included some other silly stuff, like a wyrmling prismatic dragon named Phllhougheagh (pronounced 'Fluffy') who used his massive charisma score to convince everyone he was just a fairy dragon. ("I'm a fairy dragon. See, look at the sparkly fairy dust! *poof*) There was also a Spaniard who somehow found his way into the world from the Renaissance. Also a giant-blooded bard with a guitar, a Liverpool accent, and a fascination with spicy food.