The Gaming Den

Pun-pun transcended time, went into the distant past, and created dragons before devolving into a scaly, amorphous thing that exists beyond spacetime.

That's my theory.

Ah, good, the bootstrap paradox in the only place where it doesn't create a massive headache, mythology.

(mind you, I said massive, it still creates a headache if you try to comprehend it, but because it's mythology and religion, you can easily just say "sure, whatever" and get on with the mining)

Well, Pun-Pun's lack of interference in modern cosmology (he or it is literally all things, everywhere, all the time) could be that he was robbed of sanity or sapience in prehistory by things that existed before the multiverse was created/came to be.

Hence, Azathoth.

Found this, very relevant to the discussion.

Western (post-AD&D) meets Japanese (AD&D-interpretation of "dog-like appearance" taken to extreme)

https://imgur.com/gallery/oGJJS3p

Hmm. Kobolds.

So, their interesting history in D&D is, Tucker's Kobolds, which is to say, they epitomise that clever use of terrain, environment, equipment, and so on, can make groups of even the weakest monsters trouble for mid-level parties. This was more true in AD&D than later, of course, but still, Kobolds leaning on rules to overcome disadvantage as hard as possible, that works. Sort of took that "they like traps" thing and turned it up to 11.

Also, they are commonly sorcerers, blasting simple low-level spells about the place. This turned up in an old module somewhere and because the 3e default. The used to be the smallest of the goblinoids, but are now related to lizardfolk, or dragons. Meh, monsterous heritage is only so interesting.

--

So, let's say, where Dragons are the natural guardians of elemental portals, powered by the forces of the rifts that they stabilise and grow by sleeping near them for centuries. Dragons breeding is thus a manifestation of the metaphysical sputtering of growing elemental rifts, they make lots of little rifts that drift around for years until their associated Dragon is old enough to stabilise them. Treasure? Yes, where do you think gold comes from?

And where Goblins are the mirror/shadow plane's parody takes on other civilisations, such that Evil Spock is a Hobgoblin, so, Kobolds are the parody of Dragons. Rather than one or two in a big cave, there's thousands of them in narrow warrens, rather than growing huge they just stay tiny their whole lives and grow in numbers. Rather than being curious and pompus, dangerously bored intellectual types, Kobolds are hidebound supplicants, seeking to stick with what they know and rejecting newness. Where a dragon will talk to anyone brave enough to pass the fear checks and approach, but otherwise sleep alone quite happily, a Kobold is terrified of people in their territory and will seek to eject them by any means neccecary, but may appease those seen as overwhelmingly powerful.

--

Does that work? Kobolds are the mirror-world companion to Dragons, they exist because a dragon somewhere is stabilising an elemental rift, and the older the Dragon/rift, the more Kobolds exist. They may cooperate with their companion Dragon and seek to help protect them, with their base elemental sorcery and extensive use of traps, or they may fear them as if an angry god. The PC Kobolds can be whatever, sick of that, serving that, lost, whatever.

Why are there always more Kobolds, no matter what fate brings their way? Because somewhere there is a great, old, sleeping dragon, and the mirrorverse rather insists on them being parodied. Does that make them a food source? No, they still eat more food than they are worth in calories. And what do Kobolds eat? Well, it's the mirror world, so probably stuff with an exoskeleton or various fungi.

Kobolds are just boring scaly goblins. Done.

Boo, kobolds are awesome! Goblins are just boring smooth skinned kobolds.

I like goblins as being a very genetically diverse species, like canines in order to justify why they are drawn looking so differently. When positing that I also like to include halflings under the umbrella of goblinoids.

I saw one idea for goblins where they were like gremlins to halflings as mogwai. When halflings eat meat they can turn to cannibal halflings and metamorphose into goblins. Not my bag but at least I’m not the only one who likes tying them together.

My further notion for goblins is that they have an ability for their children to do subtle mimicry where they begin to resemble the other humanoid species around them. So goblins that hang around humans too much start to look like halflings after some generations. Hanging around warhammer orcs may start to turn green with big teeth. Hobgoblins came from hanging around elves for too long and they formed a rigid society that isolated and kept themselves apart for so long that they speciated and also bred bugbears from goblins to speciate a 3rd line of goblinoids.

Naturally or unnaturally as it were their weird evolution isn’t just genetics but some sort of magic. So I don’t stress trying to find some way for them to incorporate genes from other species into their line outside of mating.

Zaranthan wrote: ↑

Sun Nov 14, 2021 10:14 pm

Boo, kobolds are awesome! Goblins are just boring smooth skinned kobolds.

Gob!

I declare full out war on the dragon sycophants!

Expect bugbear assassins by midnight!

Eh, always thought they were more or less the same, just kobolds are a little known group from Germany.

Hmmm, now I'm thinking of Nazi goblins.

All goblins are Nazis.

No, all goblins are anarcho-communists.

All goblins are mini-Ferengi.

Prak wrote: ↑

Mon Nov 15, 2021 9:03 pm

No, all goblins are anarcho-communists.

This is what I gathered from Frank's description in Races of War, but the MM itself says "Chaotic Evil", so, yeah. It fits.

You mean the kind of chaotic evil where they're just really mean to bad people and not actually bad, right?

Prak wrote: ↑

Mon Nov 15, 2021 9:03 pm

No, all goblins are anarcho-communists.

Now I want goblins to choose a chief by getting adventurers to throw a sword at him.

"Yeah, we have a chief" *points to a goblin skeleton*
"...usually peoples chiefs are alive. Or at least undead."
"Psh. Yeah, and they're usually more godsdamned trouble than they're worth, too."

The Adventurer's Almanac wrote: ↑

Tue Nov 16, 2021 5:04 pm

You mean the kind of chaotic evil where they're just really mean to bad people and not actually bad, right?

Whoever can hold onto their personal belongings the longest gets to lead.

This is usually the most cunning or physically powerful but also most perceptive (spot the thieves).

Lead? In an anarcho-commune?

Fiends and Fortresses's Goblins are anarchists, and they all have instinctive knowledge of when they are about to run into another Goblin, and they all just do whatever the hell they want and it just sort of works out (or doesn't).

Kaelik wrote: ↑

Wed Nov 17, 2021 2:42 am

Fiends and Fortresses's Goblins are anarchists, and they all have instinctive knowledge of when they are about to run into another Goblin, and they all just do whatever the hell they want and it just sort of works out (or doesn't).

Do you have a rough estimate on the ratio of when it works vs. when it doesn't? Having goblinsense sounds kind of useful but they're still... just goblins.

The Adventurer's Almanac wrote: ↑

Wed Nov 17, 2021 3:57 am

Kaelik wrote: ↑

Wed Nov 17, 2021 2:42 am

Fiends and Fortresses's Goblins are anarchists, and they all have instinctive knowledge of when they are about to run into another Goblin, and they all just do whatever the hell they want and it just sort of works out (or doesn't).

Do you have a rough estimate on the ratio of when it works vs. when it doesn't? Having goblinsense sounds kind of useful but they're still... just goblins.

Goblins are just one of the main player races and their societies use all the same fortress rules as everyone else. Goblins are better at building stuff and worse at maintaining the stuff they have and they usually use the consensus mechanics instead of feudal or autocratic.

Oh, how fun, sounds expansionistic and mildly WH40K-esque.

Anarcho-communism will always, ALWAYS, give way to entropy. Someone doesn't have to "step up" to take command when a group of anarchists is essentially just individuals, the "leader" just has to be better at everything than anyone else... Which isn't hard with no infrastructure or organization to stop them... And you get fascism/feudal/hegemony/dictator society.

JonSetanta wrote: ↑

Wed Nov 17, 2021 11:14 am

Anarcho-communism will always, ALWAYS, give way to entropy. Someone doesn't have to "step up" to take command when a group of anarchists is essentially just individuals, the "leader" just has to be better at everything than anyone else... Which isn't hard with no infrastructure or organization to stop them... And you get fascism/feudal/hegemony/dictator society.

Counter-point: This is almost certainly true for humans, but may not be the case for other sentient beings. It's easy to imagine a species where some combination of biology and strong cultural taboos makes the "leaders" who arise during crisis always want to devolve the power back to the group.