Pathfinder Is Still Bad

[Voss]

I found them pretty pointless. Basically, you go through some rolling to get the opportunity to buy new resources at 1/2 the normal price. You then spend these resources to build buildings. There is an elaborate system with hiring teams and managers to do this for you and building rooms to get them bonuses.

The problem is everything is so cheap there is little reason to bother. You can just buy a Castle for 7,390 gp, or do a ton of rolling and spend time to get it for 3695. Plus they don't integrate with other system from the same book, like the Kingdom rules. I don't know of a way to break them or anything, they just don't do enough for me to bother with them over MTP.

To be fair, no self respecting murder hobo is going to spend gold on a castle over magical equipment. So you have to make the castle really cheap otherwise the few RPers who buy it are at a massive disadvantage over the murder hobo.

and no paizo developer would even bother with that line of thinking. Anyone making that kind of comparison would be summarily ignored.

[OgreBattle]

]But the spell already restricts you to 15, so his specific reason for wanting errata is wrong.

Well, that thread is all about asking JJ random stuff, not expecting coherent answers. There are quite a few dafuq-moments sprinkled throughout the pages, because what PF rules say and what JJ wants them to be tend to be two different things.

Any good highlights from that Q&A?

[malak]

"Class balance" isn't something that is an equation. It's as much influenced by art and personal preference. What can be "balanced" for one group won't be for another.

[Voss]

So, if fighters are drawn with bigger tits and cocks than wizards, that affects class balance?

[Antariuk]

So, if fighters are drawn with bigger tits and cocks than wizards, that affects class balance?

Since that would, without doubt, get you insane amounts of Elminster's attention, definitely.

[malak]

There's gotta be someone out there better at math than me who can hook you up. I may have entered college as an aeronautical engineering student, but after a quarter with a 0.75 GPA I switched to English.

[Longes]

So, if fighters are drawn with bigger tits and cocks than wizards, that affects class balance?

This is what some people actualy believe.

In Lamentations of Flame Princess Dwarfs are basically Fighter- and Elves are Mage+. So the author gave dwarfs a RIP-AND-TEAR nice artwork, and gave elves an incredibly poncy, silly artwork. And stated on the forums that this was done to balance the classess ("powergamers wouldn't want to play someone with a stupid artwork")

[Laertes]

There's gotta be someone out there better at math than me who can hook you up. I may have entered college as an aeronautical engineering student, but after a quarter with a 0.75 GPA I switched to English.

This is actually fair enough. Aero engineering is famously the hardest sort of engineering and the most mind-crushingly intense course within the STEM subjects. It has a phenomenally high dropout rate, especially at the start of the course as people realise that it isn't for them.

[TiaC]

There's gotta be someone out there better at math than me who can hook you up. I may have entered college as an aeronautical engineering student, but after a quarter with a 0.75 GPA I switched to English.

This is actually fair enough. Aero engineering is famously the hardest sort of engineering and the most mind-crushingly intense course within the STEM subjects. It has a phenomenally high dropout rate, especially at the start of the course as people realise that it isn't for them.

First quarter in pretty much any STEM field is Calculus, Physics/Chem/Bio, A General Education Requirement, with one free class. A 0.75 GPA means he failed 3 of those. Why the fuck was he going into it if he's that bad at all the subjects involved?

[Laertes]

There's gotta be someone out there better at math than me who can hook you up. I may have entered college as an aeronautical engineering student, but after a quarter with a 0.75 GPA I switched to English.

This is actually fair enough. Aero engineering is famously the hardest sort of engineering and the most mind-crushingly intense course within the STEM subjects. It has a phenomenally high dropout rate, especially at the start of the course as people realise that it isn't for them.

First quarter in pretty much any STEM field is Calculus, Physics/Chem/Bio, A General Education Requirement, with one free class. A 0.75 GPA means he failed 3 of those. Why the fuck was he going into it if he's that bad at all the subjects involved?

There were lots of people on my course who dropped out very quickly because they didn't realise that Physics with Astro was all about maths rather than just gazing happily up at the night sky through a telescope. Similarly, I can imagine people going into aero engineering because they don't realise that it's all maths instead of just being about doodling cool pictures of aircraft.

Or it could be the almost ubiquitous depression that strikes first year male students away from home.

So yeah. Failing aero straight off doesn't mean he's stupid. It just means he picked the wrong course.

[Lago PARANOIA]

Aero engineering is famously the hardest sort of engineering and the most mind-crushingly intense course within the STEM subjects. It has a phenomenally high dropout rate, especially at the start of the course as people realise that it isn't for them.

Speaking as someone who just got their electrical engineering bachelor's, chemical engineering is way harder than either mine was or aeroscape. There are individual undergraduate classes that are harder, sure, but chem-E has at least a lab every semester and sometimes two. And labs are the biggest bullshit ever invented.

[zugschef]

So, if fighters are drawn with bigger tits and cocks than wizards, that affects class balance?

Instant classic! lol

[souran]

There's gotta be someone out there better at math than me who can hook you up. I may have entered college as an aeronautical engineering student, but after a quarter with a 0.75 GPA I switched to English.

This is actually fair enough. Aero engineering is famously the hardest sort of engineering and the most mind-crushingly intense course within the STEM subjects. It has a phenomenally high dropout rate, especially at the start of the course as people realise that it isn't for them.

As a professional engineer who works with people of numerous engineering disciplines:

Nuclear Engineering is normally considered the most difficult degree to get in the U.S.
Chemical Engineering is normally considered the second most difficult degree to obtain but the hardest to pass the state licensing tests
Aerospace engineering is considered one of the hardest ones to get stable employment in.

So what constitutes "hardest" is relative to what you want.

[animea90]

So, if fighters are drawn with bigger tits and cocks than wizards, that affects class balance?

If I am being charitable, he probably meant "Different groups place different levels of importance on different traits and have different levels of system mastery". For instance, I just read a post on another forum by someone complaining that the fighter made everyone else useless, because their casters were all going blaster caster and the fighter did most of the damage.

[Voss]

I see no reason to be charitable. Saying that people can play a decent class poorly is not the same as claiming that artwork and preferences changes the actual balance point between classes.

[ishy]

What is wrong with that statement? Seems rather logical that if the art shows someone in say, a noble's outfit, the class will have its balance shifted towards diplomacy instead of tomfoolery.

[Voss]

What is wrong with that statement? Seems rather logical that if the art shows someone in say, a noble's outfit, the class will have its balance shifted towards diplomacy instead of tomfoolery.

What are you even gibbering about? It would in no way change the actual class abilities or numbers.

[ishy]

Lets grab this bit of text:

This is also the start of an interesting misunderstanding. In 3rd edition, Dark Creepers have hooves. This is not described anywhere in their Fiend Folio description, nor do they have hooves in 2nd edition. They have hooves in 3rd edition because the artist's rendition in the AD&D Fiend Folio draws the boots kind of weird and the 3rd edition design team misunderstood that as hooves. That's how the folk process operates. One person misreads a small grainy piece of art from twenty years prior, and the next thing you know there's an iconic physical trait in the retelling.

Now the designer changed the feet on the monster into hooves, because of the art. Now imagine the designer also gave the creeper a hoof attack.

Now instead of with a monster apply that same process to a class, can you now see how a class can be influenced by its art?

[Voss]

Well, no. Because no one is talking about developing new art between one version of a class and a different version of the class, and then for no apparent reason, basing class abilities on that one piece of art. Though that is impressively stupid in its own right, so thanks for that.

JJ is saying that if someone does a new piece of art depicting a wizard and a fighter, the balance between the current versions of the fighter and wizard classes somehow magically changes.

[animea90]

I see no reason to be charitable. Saying that people can play a decent class poorly is not the same as claiming that artwork and preferences changes the actual balance point between classes.

Preferences can definitely change balance points.

If someone is in a diplomatic game with little focus on combat, they will place more value on skill points and think classes without those are underpowered. By contrast, someone in a combat only game will think skillpoints are negligible and focus solely on the combat power of classes.

And then we have the balance point of system mastery. Where some classes are better at low system mastery and others are better at high levels. I am sure people on this forum will prefer balance around each class being played perfectly, but most players likely aren't looking online for guides and play mediocrely.

Now, both of these are completely subjective so you are going to have differences in what each group considers good.

[Amalie Gaston]

If someone is in a diplomatic game with little focus on combat, they will place more value on skill points and think classes without those are underpowered. By contrast, someone in a combat only game will think skillpoints are negligible and focus solely on the combat power of classes.

Sure, but in a diplomatic game with little focus on combat, one would prefer the class that has more skill points and such. One wouldn't prefer the class that doesn't have more skill points, but is depicted in the art as an aristocrat. I mean, it's not like people play the aristocrat NPC class for their diplomancers because of the art and class name.

[Voss]

I see no reason to be charitable. Saying that people can play a decent class poorly is not the same as claiming that artwork and preferences changes the actual balance point between classes.

Preferences can definitely change balance points.

If someone is in a diplomatic game with little focus on combat, they will place more value on skill points and think classes without those are underpowered. By contrast, someone in a combat only game will think skillpoints are negligible and focus solely on the combat power of classes.

And then we have the balance point of system mastery. Where some classes are better at low system mastery and others are better at high levels. I am sure people on this forum will prefer balance around each class being played perfectly, but most players likely aren't looking online for guides and play mediocrely.

Now, both of these are completely subjective so you are going to have differences in what each group considers good.

No, you're confused; it certainly isn't subjective. The bard is objectively better than the fighter in a diplo game. The raw numbers (and spells on top) are measurably better: Preference doesn't come into it. You may want bards and sorcerers rather than wizards (and still want clerics, because sense motive and some charisma access), but fighters are still shit, but this is all because of the objective numbers that are built into the classes. Subjective preference still has no role at all.

If subjective preference was a factor, you could build a diplo fighter. Strangely (yeah, right), that class still sucks balls and your preference leads to a bad decision.


Quality of play isn't something you can balance around, because it is completely outside of the influence of designers. Bad play or competent play is a reflection of the individual player, not the class. The 5e champion path fighter isn't better balanced because it has no options and is simple to play, and thus requires no system mastery. It remains a piece of shit in all circumstances, it is just more accessible to idiots.

[Antariuk]

So, the ACG is out and according to the interwebz, a few problems/loopholes from the playtest made it into the final book. So far, so unsurprising. But I found this little gem from someone defending the ACG's current status:

Anyway, where Insain Dragoon says it sounds like there was no communication between people working on different sections of the book, it isn't a matter of communication. It's a matter of bandwidth and working in parallel. There wouldn't be time to write all the spells, feats, and archetypes after the playtest finishes. That work has to be done at least partially in advance. Which means it gets revised, more than once, when playtest feedback is incorporated and designs evolve. It's kind of like trying to change the tire on a car that's still in motion.

It's a hard job, and I guess what I'm saying is I'm consistently amazed that things come out as well as they do.

Pad yourself on the back for making schedules so tight there's no time to check for continuity errors, since the product got released anyway. Or something.

But I have to admit I am curious about the feats that are supposed to counter whole class features. And a while ago someone here asked for a trait or something that adds CHA to all saves, apparently that need will be served by the ACG as well.

[Archmage Joda]

Yes, but only if you can cast 2nd level divine spells. Because, you know, divine spellcasters needed the boost most of all..

[OgreBattle]

So, if fighters are drawn with bigger tits and cocks than wizards, that affects class balance?

This is the main reason Clerics weren't immediately popular. Clerics were often paunchier than the Paladin or Fighter, and using a homely mace instead of a sexy sword.

When I first got 3e I used a sorceror because he had pants made out of belts and showed off his pecs (with dragons sitting on his nipples). The Wizard on the other hand was a weird looking woman, or some beared old guy.

Nuclear Engineering is normally considered the most difficult degree to get in the U.S.
Chemical Engineering is normally considered the second most difficult degree to obtain but the hardest to pass the state licensing tests
Aerospace engineering is considered one of the hardest ones to get stable employment in.

I bet Dolph Lundgren could write a decent RPG with his chemical engineering degree.