The Biden Administration (No Lago)

[Kaelik]

I mean that's flatly bullshit. We have fuck tons of bombs and missiles we could give them instead of clusterbombs. We just won't because we decided we want to keep them for hypothetically using them on China or Russia at some future point.

The cluster bombs are being given because we were never going to use them, not becauses we don't have shells of any kind. Because we don't have shells that we weren't kind of using already (by storing somewhere to eventually fire them probably never, but maybe.)

[deaddmwalking]

Russia has already used cluster munitions in Ukraine - their use has been well-documented.

[MGuy]

More people doing a catastrophically bad thing is in fact worse than less people doing it. What think piece did you read that convinced you that this was not the case?

[Kaelik]

Russia has already used cluster munitions in Ukraine - their use has been well-documented.

.............

Yes. That is true! You know what else Russia has done in Ukraine? Invaded Ukraine for conquest.

Should the US invade Ukraine for conquest? Should Ukraine invade Poland for conquest?

I know your only possible response to the US trying to cause war crimes is to immediately start doing apologia, but like.... put a few more minutes of thought into your apologia for war crimes before posting so that it at least resembles a coherent argument in favor of the thing you like (Democrats trying to set off more cluster bombs in Ukraine that will cause more dead Ukrainian civilians).

[deaddmwalking]

More people doing a catastrophically bad thing is in fact worse than less people doing it. What think piece did you read that convinced you that this was not the case?

Ukranian people defending themselves in whatever way they deem most expedient does not seem catastrophically bad. If the Ukrainian people and their elected government didn't want to fight, they probably wouldn't.

But you're right - we should have given Ukraine F-16s a year ago so they could have established air superiority over their own sovereign territory and wouldn't have to rely on the more abundant and less accurate cluster munitions.

But we didn't.

The amount of mine/explosive clearing that will be required to help ensure the safety of Ukrainians after the conflict is over is already daunting, and additional cluster munitions won't make that much of a difference in terms of the effort required. But what it can do is make a big difference in how close Russian forces are to Ukranian population centers. Civilians in Kherson are dying every week because of artillery bombardments. I would speculate that those who died this week would have been willing to trade it for a death thirty years from now when they accidentally tripped over an unexploded bomblet.

Fortunately, Russia can prevent Ukraine from using these munitions by withdrawing back to their internationally recognized borders.

You telling Ukraine not to use cluster munitions is no different than the protesters on the corner of Beach Blvd and Imperial highway today telling women that they are going to hell for getting an abortion. Even if that’s what you really believe you should defer to the people who are actually faced with the tough situation and keep your mouth shut while respecting their choice. I’m pretty sure that Ukraine isn't using cluster munitions because they want additional civilian casualties - rather they see it as the only choice to prevent civilian casualties. And even that wouldn't be necessary if their supporters provided more conventional munitions.

The fight is here. I need ammunition, not a ride.

[Neo Phonelobster Prime]

Everything "We" should have done in the Ukraine turns out to actually be things "We" shouldn't have done.

Backing a coup.

Backing Nazi oppression of an ethnic group.

Constantly trying to extend Nato as an act of obvious aggression.

Waggling our bare ass at Putin and making fart noises in the media at every opportunity for years.

Provoking a war.

Sabotaging any signs of any emerging peace process.

Blowing up that fucking pipeline everyone knows "We" blew up.

At no point in the process was or is or ever will be the solution to the war "moar hawkish moar weapons moar warcrimes cause ours don't count and make everything explode until we start world war 3 FUCKING YAY USA USA USA".

Fucking Kissinger holds the peacenik position on this.

You are worse than fucking Kissinger.

You are a child. A nasty child.

[MGuy]

You telling Ukraine not to use cluster munitions is no different than the protesters on the corner of Beach Blvd and Imperial highway today telling women that they are going to hell for getting an abortion.

What think pieces have you read that have gotten you to the point where you think war crimes and protesting on a corner are comparable things?

[Kaelik]

The amount of mine/explosive clearing that will be required to help ensure the safety of Ukrainians after the conflict is over is already daunting, and additional cluster munitions won't make that much of a difference in terms of the effort required. But what it can do is make a big difference in how close Russian forces are to Ukranian population centers. Civilians in Kherson are dying every week because of artillery bombardments. I would speculate that those who died this week would have been willing to trade it for a death thirty years from now when they accidentally tripped over an unexploded bomblet.

There you have it. Just do war crimes with ineffective weapons so that the US can use it's stockpile of war crimes weapons. Any number of dead Ukranians is a cost that deaddm is willing to pay to allow the US to farm out the use of it's war crime weapons so we don't have to give them useful weapons.

Just the dumbest fucking person who can't possibly help himself from making up extremely stupid post hoc justifications for war crimes because Joe Biden told him war crimes were good and God Emperor Joe Biden cannot be questioned.

You telling Ukraine not to use cluster munitions is no different than the protesters on the corner of Beach Blvd and Imperial highway today telling women that they are going to hell for getting an abortion.

One of the many differencences between doing war crimes to kill Ukranian civilians and abortion is that war crimes are bad and abortions are good.

Even if that’s what you really believe you should defer to the people who are actually faced with the tough situation and keep your mouth shut while respecting their choice.

It's actually really bad to defer to the people doing war crimes on behalf of the state on whether they should do war crimes on behalf of the state. Notably, the state is not in fact asking civilians whether they want to blow up for zero additional help and the United States is not asking Ukraine if they want war crime bombs that kill Ukranian civilians or precsisely targetted missiles. The US is offering war crime bombs or standing around holding all our precision missiles and saying "well no actually, you can't have them."

It would actually be a bad thing and a war crime for the Ukranian military to use cluster bombs, but that's not why you are posting here.

We all know you couldn't possibly give a fuck about defending the decisions of whatever random Ukranian general makes the decision on whether and where and when to use Cluster Bombs. No one is even talking about that. The ONLY reason you are posting in this thread is not to defend any person in any way "faced with a tough situation." The only reason you posted at all is to defend the divine sanctity of your personal lord and savoir US Empire as expressed through it's current Pope, Joe Biden, who has said the War Crimes must continue because he doesn't want to give up any of his blowing up China missiles to help Ukraine.

The fight is here. I need ammunition, not a ride.

"But not the good bombs, we must sit in a pile of those and only give them the war crimes bombs because Joe Biden told me so."-deaddm



(To make a minor point to avoid pendantry, when the US had excess precision weapons we did give them, and we are continuing to give excess as we produce it, but the allegation that the US just doesn't have any bombs left but cluster bombs is bullshit. Does anyone seriously believe that the US has depleted all the stock of their various missiles we are using in the Pacific to try to create a codon to block off china? does anyone seriously believe we have even canibalized all the fucking missiles we just have lying around in stockpiles at military bases to be used by our fighters? bombs to be dropped by our bombers? No, we are keeping all that online and ready to go instead of cannibalizing it because the US Empire cares more about the theoretical readiness ability an air base in Cali or Florida or 200 military bases not in the US then it does about a single Ukranian life and THAT is the priority that deaddm is really defending, because it's a priority that Joe Biden has.)

[Omegonthesane]

To be clear I never seriously thought the US had absolutely deplted all its non-war-crime bombs before sending Ukraine its war crime bombs, and I further would put it to you that if "let's clear our stock of war crime bombs because when the fuck else are we going to use them" was reason enough then Team Blue & Yellow would have had US war crime bombs more quickly than this.

The pedantic point about excess and the production of excess is... well it's pedantic if you're trying to morally justify giving war crime bombs to a country in no position to refuse them (and which was already using cluster bombs to defend itself, because Ukraine never signed the relevant treaty against the use of cluster bombs was documented using cluster bombs on three occasions as at August 2022, compared to Russia's multiple hundreds of documented uses by that point).

The more interesting point to me was what that implies for the USA's ability to manufacture bombs of any kind - that they clearly aren't at Current Time, fifteen months into their obvious proxy war, able to produce enough explosions to decisively outpace the Russian industrial warfare machine.

[Kaelik]

It was and remains true that Ukraine has not signed the revelant anti cluster bomb treaty, but they so far have not used them to defend because an additional pre-req to use besides "not having it be illegal to use them" is "have any of them"

Ukraine was not using cluster bombs to defend itself because it didn't have any and in fact very few countries have any on hand partly because cluster bombs have never been shown to be actualy more useful then non cluster bombs at fighting modern wars, and in fact everyone is mostly aware that they are worth less then putting the same resources into other types of bombs unless your goal is specifically civilian casualties.

Only 34 countries have made cluster bombs since the end of wwii and only 16 "still" do and Ukraine isn't one of them.

[MGuy]

Not that dead can be argued reasonably down from the "War crimes are ok as long as war crimes have already happened" hill. deaddm's political stance on most things where people are suffering is that poor/brown people shouldn't complain too loud. The only reason he's suddenly taking the "listen to these people" track, where before in every other instance he would ignore activists and advocates for the suffering in the US, is because he's definitely read some think piece that has told him that war crimes are ok.

The funny part, is that the same logic could be used to justify every action Putin has taken. Russia sure is in a tough situation. Who is deaddm to judge them?

[Omegonthesane]

Upon further research (read: checking the sources of the subheading "Use by Ukrainian forces" in the Wikipedia article "Use of cluster munitions in the Russian invasion of Ukraine") it is, in fact, true that Ukraine has used cluster munitions - but only in the most pedantic sense. Where Russia has made extensive use of the war crime shells, with hundreds of documented individual cases as of a cluster bombs report in August 2022, at the same time stamp Ukraine had used them a mere three confirmed times - twice in March 2022, once in July 2022.

Which isn't "never using them ever", but there's no equivalence and I regret even vaguely implying there was any equivalence.

Also in the Wikipedia article was the claim that Ukraine had expressed interest in US cluster bombs... for the purpose of dismantling them and using the submunitions directly.

[deaddmwalking]

Using cluster munitions isn't necessarily a war crime any more than firing a gun is murder.

Obviously you CAN commit war crimes with weapons (say by deliberately attacking civilian populations) and some weapons are themselves so repugnant that the use is a war crime, such as with chemical weapons. Cluster Munitions don't automatically fall into the category of committing a war crime by their use.

All types of mines are dangerous to civilians. An area the size of Florida is currently extensively mined making it impossibly dangerous for civilian use. The amount of area that has mines is more important than the number of mines in that area. I wouldn't be willing to plough a field if it only had 400 mines in it, and I wouldn't be less willing if it had 800 mines in it - the fact that it has ANY MINES is sufficient detriment to the safe use.

It is clear that Ukraine needs munitions, and currently is using them faster than Western partners have been able to produce. Carefully considering how best to use the equipment available to defend themselves is paramount - but that's best done by the people who are defending themselves and their homes. It is clear to me that the Ukrainians have been trying to minimize civilian casualties while defending themselves against a war of aggression. I don't believe for a moment that Ukraine would be better off by surrendering, even if it means fewer civilians die in the near term. Even if I did, it still wouldn't be my choice to make. I'm for giving Ukraine the support it asks for and letting them make the hard decisions. Yes, it will mean that some people die - but that happens no matter what they choose. Sometimes you have to choose to fight even if death is a possible consequence - it is by no means certain that death is the worst that can happen to a person.

[MGuy]

Another think piece must've come out because that's quite a shift from "Warcrimes happened therefore continued warcrimes is alright" and "protests = warcrimes". Now we've rested easily on "I am ok with the US providing the means for warcrimes as long as the people we're giving the things to deem it necessary". Baby steps.

[Neo Phonelobster Prime]

Cluster Munitions don't automatically fall into the category of committing a war crime by their use.

Crime. The concept. What do you even think it is?

[Kaelik]

Using cluster munitions isn't necessarily a war crime any more than firing a gun is murder.

Obviously you CAN commit war crimes with weapons (say by deliberately attacking civilian populations) and some weapons are themselves so repugnant that the use is a war crime, such as with chemical weapons. Cluster Munitions don't automatically fall into the category of committing a war crime by their use.

Instead of taking this incredibly stupid person who is clearly making up post hoc justifications for whatever position US empire is taking this week (so long as it's the good US empire with the D in front!) you could look into what Cluster bombs actually do.

This statement is functionally different in kind not degree from the claim that you could totally have non warcrime reasons to drop a nuclear bomb.

You actually cannot use a cluster bomb without doing a war crime. The Venn Diagram is literally just a small circle entirely enclosed within a larger circle. Cluster bombs are super fucking exactly a kind of weapon that is so repugnant that using them is a war crime.

but that's best done by the people who are defending themselves and their homes.

1) Again, military generals are actually the worst possible people to be making the decision on whether or not to do the war crimes.

2) You don't even believe this! You literally believe we should tell them to fuck off and take the war crime bombs instead of more useful weapons because you only care about defending the political decision of Joe Biden and a bunch of dem congress members who are all choosing to prioritize offloading war crime bombs over trying to manage any kind of use of bombs and missiles that we already allocated for our very important definitely not evil military bases around the world to make sure that we can blow up anywhere on the planet in 30 minutes.

I don't believe for a moment that Ukraine would be better off by surrendering, even if it means fewer civilians die in the near term.

It's amazing how committed you are to lying like this. Imagine this in any other context. Imagine if every D&D thred was just deaddm replying to someone and saying "I don't believe for a single moment that chattel slavery is good"? Okay cool. Is there some reason you feel the need to say this very stupid thing?

I mean we know the actual reason, because you are trying to imply that the very reasonable things people have said on this are this unreasonable thing, but it's just so fucking funny to see you try this argument. Who do you think was going to be convinced by this?

[Thaluikhain]

The more interesting point to me was what that implies for the USA's ability to manufacture bombs of any kind - that they clearly aren't at Current Time, fifteen months into their obvious proxy war, able to produce enough explosions to decisively outpace the Russian industrial warfare machine.

Well, there's able and then there's willing. Now, I've no idea, but I'd not be surprised if the US arms industries weren't making things that Ukraine could use, but exporting them to paying customers elsewhere. Israel immediately comes to mind, I believe that large amounts of foreign aid money are given to Israel with the caveat they must be spent at US arms manufacturers.

[Kaelik]

The more interesting point to me was what that implies for the USA's ability to manufacture bombs of any kind - that they clearly aren't at Current Time, fifteen months into their obvious proxy war, able to produce enough explosions to decisively outpace the Russian industrial warfare machine.

Well, there's able and then there's willing. Now, I've no idea, but I'd not be surprised if the US arms industries weren't making things that Ukraine could use, but exporting them to paying customers elsewhere. Israel immediately comes to mind, I believe that large amounts of foreign aid money are given to Israel with the caveat they must be spent at US arms manufacturers.

This is a good point. In addition to all our anti china weapons, we also are still giving Japan and Taiwan anti China weapons and also Israel and KSA and UAE their do a genocide weapons.

Those are even less justifiable then just regular US weapon stockpiles.

[PseudoStupidity]

No, no, no. You guys are all against Ukraine because you want the US to not send mass murder bombs. And obviously we can't send them other weapons because then we wouldn't have enough missiles and shit to blow up China if they go for Taiwan. I know what you might be thinking, "couldn't we send Taiwan, a country that isn't currently in a war, our mass murder bombs as a deterrent instead of stockpiling missiles and shit all around them while an active war (that we totally want to see Ukraine decisively win instead of using it to ground down the Russian [and Ukranian] military) is going on?" I assure you this is stupid because... fuck you. Anyways, I read an NYT article and actually giving Ukraine advanced weapons that would blast apart Russian defensive positions and supply lines without blowing away Ukranian children decades later would be ineffective. You see, ATACAMS would not work. I hear the Kerch Strait bridge is somehow immune to them, and that Russian railroads are made of special materials that reflect long-range guided missiles back at the attacker. And don't even think of sending them our tanks with the super-secret armor! We need to remove the super-secret armor from them so nobody finds out what our super-secret armor is made of. The lives of Ukranians are obviously worth less than knowledge of our special tank armor.

In all seriousness, if people support sending weapons to Ukraine they should support sending them the good shit so they can win decisively instead of sending crap from the 80s and 90s to create a grinding war where both sides suffer more than 100k casualties each year. I doubt Ukraine is going to recover from the invasion, as it will suffer demographic collapse (much like Russia is going to have a demographic collapse) caused by losing hundreds of thousands of people, mostly men of prime working age, to war (and of the 6 million Ukranians who fled the war I wonder how many will ultimately return). It will also be thoroughly looted by capitalists during any reconstruction efforts. The life and future prospects of the Ukranian people is made worse every day the war continues, and thus the best course of action for the welfare of the Ukranian people is whatever ends the war the quickest. This means the best course of action is obviously not half-assed support, it's either whole-assed support (if we don't mind risking nukes flying and the damage to what remains of our relationship with Russia) or no military support (knowing that Ukraine would very likely lose the war in that case). I don't understand defending half-assed support, it's literally the worst option for everyone except the US empire. Scratch that, I now understand defending half-assed support. It is a disgusting and evil reason, completely anti-human, but if you want the US empire to be at maximum strength half-assed support for Ukraine is your best choice.

[Kaelik]

It will also be thoroughly looted by capitalists during any reconstruction efforts.

Yeah, a lot of very important emergency order and laws implemented and passed gutting workers rights during this war and I would not be at all surprised to find out they happened after some US diplomats explained that we really want to protect Ukraine because of Human Rights and then listed some "Human Rights" like the Right to Work and the Right to Work and the Right To Sign a Zero Hour Contract with some vague insinutations that not doing that would mean Ukraine didn't have any human rights to protect.

[Kaelik]

Ukraine has a state website selling off state assets for privatization at cut rates by literal website auction. It lists partners as USAID, International Finance Corporation, European Commission, and European Bank all of whom have their names on the front page.

One possibility it is that it is simply the will of the Ukranian people being democratically expressed when they voted for a party that didn't promise vast privatization but is bringing it. Another possibility is that it turns out the US government IS willing to use it's influence over Ukraine to dictate terms to them on some things. Just a thing to keep in mind while pretending that the Biden admin is just deferring to the people of Ukraine.

[Schleiermacher]

What's the URL?

[Kaelik]

The state property fund website https://www.spfu.gov.ua/en/ has links to the auctions whic appear to be on some site that does auctions, https://prozorro.sale/auction/SPE001-UA-20230713-23797/ with that being one example of an ongoing auction.

[MGuy]

Sounds like a familiar move.

[PseudoStupidity]

There's that thorough looting by capitalists! It sounds like how Russia did it with their vouchers, but worse (unless they gave Ukranians shares in the state enterprises they are selling off, but I haven't heard of anything like that happening).

I can't wait to see how people spin literally selling off Ukranian industry at bargain bin prices to be somehow helping the Ukranian people.