The Gaming Den

This class hurts a bit, but the off topic bits are what make me cry...and laugh
The Geisha
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=864122

The Geisha

Oh, God. Hah hah hah… boo hoo boo hoo.

I think that thread epitomizes this thread's title. A weak base class vs. historical accuracy vs. flavor text vs. an almost katanas r teh awesum-level of crap.

Wow. Did you guys know the Japanese make some pretty cool funny books? Now you do!

Ow! My eyes!

I find it funny that many of the complaints about the 'unrealistic' Geisha class apply to the geisha class which already exists (the Bard).


Anyway, here's a gem I found on WotC:

What put Gygax in such a horrible, PC-hatin' mood to write that module?

http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/tt/20070626a

Guest (Unregistered) at [unixtime wrote:1182908870[/unixtime]]I find it funny that many of the complaints about the 'unrealistic' Geisha class apply to the geisha class which already exists (the Bard).


Anyway, here's a gem I found on WotC:

What put Gygax in such a horrible, PC-hatin' mood to write that module?

http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/tt/20070626a

I love this part...

Andy: a dungeon isn't great just because the DM had fun snuffing the PCs. It doesn't take DM or adventure-design skill to kill off PCs; in fact, the reverse is true. Really crappy DMs and adventure writers have been killing off PCs (and campaigns) for decades. What takes skill is to write a dungeon that pushes players and characters to their limits without just arbitrarily dropping them into a pit of lava or throwing a dozen balors at them.

For the Geisha class it just got worse, some one suggested the Witch class spell list and now it has that spell list.

Hey, I started out with the Witch spell-list for my Sorceror, but... That was before F&K's tomes and I knew I'd be able to cheese Polymorph and then PRC into classes with domains.

But... What is the Geisha supposed to do?

-Crissa

Crissa at [unixtime wrote:1182993230[/unixtime]]

But... What is the Geisha supposed to do?

-Crissa

That is a good question. I don't know anymore. It was suppose to be a (Assassin, Healer, Bard-like) class.

Now

It just fails.

Here is another thread to hurt your senses...

http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=766148

The Juggernaut

EDIT: Sorry about the infinite loop thing

Why was this (by which I mean THIS ONE; check your link, Leress) thread supposed to hurt me?

By forming an infinite loop in which you read the thread, go to the link, read it again, repeat ad infinitum.

Sorry about that I fixed it.

OK... it's a "tank" who is not allowed to wear heavy armor or use a shield. It gets small amounts of DR and eventually gets to rage itself a bonus to AC.

Uh... in what way does that not suck the mud kip?

And then people come in to go off about how it's over powered because it has DR of 3/Adamantine at level 2. He's so offensively anemic at this point that he can't even hurt himself.

-Username17

Don't forget when it "tanks" it automatically fails any reflex save. It can be stopped with a tangelfoot bag.

I dunno, the juggernaut doesn't seem that terrible. I mean, you're getting +1/2 your level to AC, attack and damage, plus a +4 to str and con. At 9thlevel you get to add your strength bonus to your AC.

Now, the thing is that it's not actually a juggernaut. One of the worst things you can probably do with that class is go with a big power weapon. No, you probably want to abuse that attack/damage bonus and just go with two weapon fighting.

After you get strength to AC, you're effectively untouchable from mundane attacks. While reflex stuff does screw you, how often are you fighting enemies who use tanglefoot bags anyway? I mean obviously the DM can be a metagaming bitch, but I don't' consider it all that big a drawback.

After 10th level, it gets crap for abilities, but prior to that, it's not a bad class really. str bonus to will saves, str bonus to AC, and like a +5 to hit/dmg and AC at level 10. That's not really too bad. Then you get another miscellaneous +2 to AC on top of that from the Juggernaut ability. Not to mention that when you tank, you get a +1d12 on your unarmed strikes, so you're a monk on crack. Imagine combining TWF and flurry of blows with all that.

You'd deal some reasonable damage I think. Obviously, we're not talking huge damage, but still that ain't terrible and you've got a godly AC.

RandomCasualty at [unixtime wrote:1183057537[/unixtime]]After you get strength to AC, you're effectively untouchable from mundane attacks. While reflex stuff does screw you, how often are you fighting enemies who use tanglefoot bags anyway? I mean obviously the DM can be a metagaming bitch, but I don't' consider it all that big a drawback.

How often do you run against people with Entangle or Web?

shirak at [unixtime wrote:1183060054[/unixtime]]
How often do you run against people with Entangle or Web?

In my play experience, not too often really.
Entangle is druid only, I don't think I've ever really fought against an NPC druid.

As far as web, succeeding the reflex or failing it against doesn't make a huge difference really.

It should also be noted that there's nothing preventing a juggernaut from tanking with a bow, or dropping alchemist's fire to burn up the web.

Random Casualty wrote:It should also be noted that there's nothing preventing a juggernaut from tanking with a bow, or dropping alchemist's fire to burn up the web.

Juggernaut wrote:None of the Juggernauts special abilities function while wielding a weapon

-Username17

Isn't considered wielding a weapon if you have natural weapons?

oh, I missed that line Frank... Odd to hide that under weapon proficiencies... wtf? Yeah, that really blows...

I guess still not terrible as a pummeler, but the fact that you can't use anything but fists pretty much sucks. Still beats a monk though, but that isn't saying much.

I dunno who you guys fight...

...But I can't recall a campaign that didn't have web or entangle in it.

-Crissa

PS: This guy is a walking target for a trip attempt or pin. And how is he supposed to use bull rush when his movement is limited? Give your archer alchemist fire and kite this guy around a small room or merely leave him on the ground repeatedly. He only has a +4 bonus to ssrength to counter it... Not even a +4 strength bonus!

I can't think of a single one of my second level characters that couldn't beat this guy... And I never make combat monsters.

Crissa at [unixtime wrote:1183068683[/unixtime]]I dunno who you guys fight...

...But I can't recall a campaign that didn't have web or entangle in it.

Well most of my games don't take place outdoors and tend to revolve more around monsters than NPCs. since no monster has web as an SLA, I don't see it much.

I can't think of a single one of my second level characters that couldn't beat this guy... And I never make combat monsters.

Well no, he's easy if you know his secret. But most DMs shouldn't metagame cheese him either.

I mean, the juggernaut pretty much pounds down any fighter type fairly easily if you don't have the proper counters on you. Try to face him directly and that monk damage + 1d12 is going to get to you. Not to mention the other benefits the guy gets from tanking.

The juggernaut is really more of a monster killer than a humanoid killer, since obviously people with the right equipment, like a tanglefoot bag, can instantly win against him.

The juggernaut pretty much sucks if you've got anything that fights at range though, since all you've got to do is kite him for a quick win.

What does outdoors have to do with web? There's no such constraint on the spell. I've never even seen it used outdoors.

I wouldn't play the Juggernaut not because he has a weakness: But because he has far too much rules text. If there's so many conditions to abilities that they cannot be explained tersely, it's just not worth it.

Movement abilities don't work while... Other abilities don't work while... Can only use when...

This guy might not die to closet trolls, but he's got nothing on the core paladin for that. He doesn't survive any saves after say fourth level, and at that point, so what if he's got AC like a dragon? He can't reach you worth squat, and he can't even hurt himself. He has nothing to keep people from running away or otherwise ignoring him.

He's a one-trick NPC with too many rules.

-Crissa

Let's not give shitty wotc boards classes too much attention, ok?

MrWaeseL at [unixtime wrote:1183081634[/unixtime]]Let's not give shitty wotc boards classes too much attention, ok?

Don't be a party pooper: making fun of WotC, the WotC boards and the huge steaming piles of awful produced by the aforementioned is why I'm here!

The Juggernaut is an unmitigated pile of toss. He's like a slow-ass Monk who's spent too long reading X-Men and thus neglected his sprint training and kung-fu weapons. He gets an extra d12 damage on his unarmed attacks, but this is completely negated at higher levels by the fact that he never gets to overcome any sort of damage reduction other than Adamantine unless some kindly spellcaster casts Magic Fang or similar on him. And that huge attack and damage bonus is just odd; useful at low levels but irrelevant later on because he's not going to get to the fight, ever. Oh, unless of course you let him take that "Flying Tank" feat, which you won't, because it doesn't make any fvcking sense whatsoever!

I have no philosophical objection to fighter types being useful, but HOW is that ability suppose to work? Is it supernatural, spell-like, or extraordinary? As written, you can fly at will with a big movement rate and good maneuverability from 7th level (except you can't because he doesn't get a feat at 7th level and you'll have to wait until 9th) but could you do it if you were under the influence of hold person? No one knows.

He's got the skills of an autistic hedgehog. His mechanics are weird in the extreme. I mean, just what the Gygax is that Antimagic Fists crap? How does the mechanic work? Does he have to make a dispel check of some kind, and if so, based on what? How many effects could he dispel at once, if anyone cared, which they don't? And why does he get his weakest ability - adding his Str to Charisma-based checks in combat - at 20th level?!

He's never going to fail a Will save, which would be nice if he could do anything useful, but he's every NPC evocation-monkey's bitch, he has no way of overcoming battlefield control measures and just WTF is "[...] any movement based bonuses or abilities cannot function while tanking [...]" about? Does he not get a +2 attack roll bonus for charging, or what?

On difficult terrain he's completely screwed: Balance is not a class skill for him so he's never going to be able to charge over anything more challenging than Astroturf and the Rogue will ranged-touch-attack his ass to death until he's at least 10th level, by which time the party Wizard will have lost patience and turned him into something more useful, like a hatstand.

This class was written by someone whose encounters go: "The monster runs across the featureless terrain and hits you with his hitty thing, then waits expectantly for you to return the favour"... He's better than a straight Fighter - or could be, if the many questions about how his abilities work were answered - but still well into chocolate fireguard territory.

The E6 System! No leveleling after 6! Replace all advancing with feats! Fight the same monsters! What a fucking idiot!

At its core, it's not a bad idea. If you want to play at a specific power level, just stop advancement. Seriously, if you like 6th level characters, just play a 6th level game and don't advance things to 7th level.

Anyone who has ever played a WoD game knows with certainty that you can have a campaign that lasts 10 years and only fight vampires and werewolves and have that never get old so long as you keep introducing story elements for players to interact with. Anyone who has ever played a "modern" or "steam punk" game knows that you can actually just face off against humans over and over again without that ever being a problem.

So really, if you like 6th level play, why have characters advance? Characters with 6 levels and 20 feats don't really play like 6th level characters (except for the Fighters, they totally do). There's a built in assumption that advancement has to happen that is completely unwarranted in a system that is proposing to terminate advancement.

-Username17

FrankTrollman at [unixtime wrote:1183140905[/unixtime]]At its core, it's not a bad idea. If you want to play at a specific power level, just stop advancement. Seriously, if you like 6th level characters, just play a 6th level game and don't advance things to 7th level.

Anyone who has ever played a WoD game knows with certainty that you can have a campaign that lasts 10 years and only fight vampires and werewolves and have that never get old so long as you keep introducing story elements for players to interact with. Anyone who has ever played a "modern" or "steam punk" game knows that you can actually just face off against humans over and over again without that ever being a problem.

So really, if you like 6th level play, why have characters advance? Characters with 6 levels and 20 feats don't really play like 6th level characters (except for the Fighters, they totally do). There's a built in assumption that advancement has to happen that is completely unwarranted in a system that is proposing to terminate advancement.

-Username17

The problem, as far as I am concerned, is that it shoots to hell the internal consistency of the setting. How do people survive in a world where your greatest hero can barely defeat a Fire Giant and there are seriously Titans around? There is only so far that ganging up will take you in D&D