The Gaming Den

Good old spiked chain+spring attack?

name_here wrote:Good old spiked chain+spring attack?

Nah, no reach with spiked chain anymore (one of Jason's nerfs like Rogues). It is worse than a Heavy Flail now.
You want the new and improved exotic weapons:
Kusarigama (1d3 Slash/1d6 Blunt), double chained kama (1d6/1d6 Slash), Meteor Hammer 1d8 Blunt (while used as a reach weapon you get +1 shield to AC).
Also Kyoketsu Shoge, (1d4 Slash or 1d4 Reach Blunt).

The DC Kama and Kyoketsu Shoge can be used adjacent and far away like the old Spiked Chain.
The Meteor hammer has to be decided on your turn.
These are all two handed weapons.

For one handed weapons:
Whips and Scorpion whips also allow adjacent and reach.

With Combat Expertise still being a dumb gatekeeper feat (That, Power Attack and Deadly Aim should just be attack options) with a 13 Intelligence and the gimping of bonuses and splitting the feats and the awful CMD being so much higher than CMB, is the combat maneuver guy even just generally viable unless you really twink it out? In the Pathfinder games I saw and played in, consensus was that Ranged Attacks Are God but finagling a way to Pounce or get a ton of natural attacks was on the table as well. Trip Stars and GrappleMonsters don't really seem to be something Pathfinder does well and it seems by design.

I do recall people at Paizo and here complaining repeatedly about Combat Expertise being a crummy, outmoded gatekeeper prereq and that the hated splitting the Combat maneuver stuff into two separate feats.

Like the first post from FrankTrollman said, Power Attack is still good but that was gimped, too. The days of finding ways to increase the ratio on it, dump your AC or get a Touch attack and splatter guys and one shot them is a 3.5 grognard/Old Fogey campfire tale now, too. Melee guys are writing it down on the sheet for sure but we all know they subconsciously yearn for Shock Trooper and Combat Brute.

Well, there's this if you're on a tight point buy:

Dirty Tricks Toolbox wrote:Dirty Fighting (Combat)
You can take advantage of a distracted foe.
Benefit: When you attempt a combat maneuver check against a foe you are flanking, you can forgo the +2 bonus on your attack roll for flanking to instead have the combat maneuver not provoke an attack of opportunity. If you have a feat or ability that allows you to attempt the combat maneuver without provoking an attack of opportunity, you can instead increase the bonus on your attack roll for flanking to +4 for the combat maneuver check.
Special: This feat counts as having Dex 13, Int 13, Combat Expertise, and Improved Unarmed Strike for the purposes of meeting the prerequisites of the various improved combat maneuver feats, as well as feats that require those improved combat maneuver feats as prerequisites.

Alternately play a brawler to bypass the ability score prereq another way, or play a barbarian who can sub rage powers for the related feats (you'll need a way to rage cycle). Or play a magus and use true strike with a whip, and never bother getting the feats or anything like them.

But basically if you're going to play a combat maneuver build there's no godly reason not to twink it out heavily though, part timers suck at it with the possible exception of the magus I mentioned.

speaking of Magus, is that class at all worth a shit?

Ferret wrote:speaking of Magus, is that class at all worth a shit?

I know tier list stuff is verboten but a d8, two good saves, 3/4 caster casting off intelligence, they ain't too bad. It's not like full caster or a sneaky full caster like the original Summoner strong, but she can get the job done.

I think they are kind of a little on the low side of that d8 3/4 caster paradigm later stage Pathfinder really embraced. High floor, kind of low ceiling sort of guy. They are in line with Inquisitors, Warpriests, Hunters, Bards/Skalds/Alchemist (maybe weaker than that).

I guess the niche is de buffing or trying to nuke one guy. It's kind of hard to see why 10 or so other classes don't do that just as good if not better.

I think I would rather ask to play a Duskblade with a little hot sauce on it/DM "Pathfinderization" for whatever that is worth.

I am not sure what consensus on strongest archetype is, but I hear people talk about Hexcrafter and Kensai.

I kind of think about Dungeons and Dragons as...
Full casting off Intelligence/Full Arcane Casting
Full casting off Wisdom/Arcane Full Casting Off Charisma
Stronger 3/4 casting with a little something to keep your interest
Full BAB with a little more to do than swing a stick/shoot your bow a lot.
Full BAB with fiddly stuff that doesn't really matter and crappy skills and saves.
3/4 BAB with ways to improve accuracy/damage
3/4 BAB without ways to improve accuracy in the class
The worst realizations of the last 4 types of classes

Obviously this is pretty fluid, but it kind of works for to just look at a new class and gauge my "Give A Care/Don't give a care" interest.

Ferret wrote:speaking of Magus, is that class at all worth a shit?

It depends on the play style.

If your GM likes to start the enemies within 30' with no buff round then it can be good to have a class which can start with swift action enhance your blade with arcane pool/standard action cast a touch spell/move action to get in the enemies face/free action deliver the touch spell with spellstrike.

If your GM hates save or lose spells and devotes some effort to making them useless then a magus debuffing with rime spell frostbite (no save fatigued and entangled) or true strike combat maneuvers could be handy to have around.

If neither of these apply and playing an effective arcane caster isn't asking to get trapped alone in an impenetrable teleport-blocking force field dome with an angry elephant, then no, play something else.

Edit: & if you have no idea about the GM it's reasonable for testing the waters. You're not likely to be useless no matter what, and you can find out what happens when you cast color spray or vanish in the game without having to devote much of your character to it.

Rgr, thanks guys

A lot of people like the Hexcrafter archetype. Basically it lets you trade Magus Arcana (the class' signature fiddly abilities) in for hexes on an individual basis. This generally means you can pick up Slumber and Will SoL people from level 4 onwards. Having an at-will SoD/SoL on anything in PF is kind of alright. Personally I would put them at the higher end of the 3/4 casting classes, behind Summoner.

Hexcrafter also adds some spells to your spell list which is neat.

So, in pathfinder, how would one make the best shapeshifter they possibly could? I know Druids get wildshape at level 4, but I'm under the impression that it tends to drop off in usefulness after level 12. What I'd like is a shapeshifter who can use shapeshifting for utility purposes, as well as being able to hulk out and destroy foes in battle, but I don't know what the best way to be a shapeshifter is (also I've been on something of a werewolf kick in owod and skyrim, and exalted 3 won't have lunars for some time I bet, and my group already ruled that trying to be an actual werewolf in pathfinder would have...self-control issues).

The hat of disguise covers the vast majority of your utility needs, as would the case of letting the DM permit a custom race with Greater Change Shape ability.

You get your warform fun through either the alchemist or a specialized primary caster like the druid, synthesist summoner, or sorcerer.

Archmage Joda wrote:So, in pathfinder, how would one make the best shapeshifter they possibly could?

If you're concerned about the teen levels and hulking out is your combat tactic then something druid-like is the only way. I mean, the 6-level spellcasters are fading by the teens and you're going to want at least 3/4 BAB. Lunar oracles get better buffs but no options for casting while in animal shapes ... really, you've chosen a druid already.

So. Looking at a druid which will last into the high levels. You're not taking an animal companion, they're bad at those levels. A lion shaman druid with the glory domain/heroism subdomain gets a bunch of useful spells, a few extra feats, can do a little shift to tear faces from level 2 and can summon felines as a standard action if they need disposable mooks. There are enough good high level druid spells for this role that you should still be effective (e.g. 7: heal, true seeing, 8: frightful aspect, 9: shapechange.)

I believe that even in Pathfinder the Druid is a very capable of Melee fighter. Assuming that your kit isn't just automatically melded into you. What with the massive ass STR bonuses that you get from it.

So then, how would I manage my attributes, since wouldn't being a shapeshifting focused druid kinda pooch my wisdom for casting? Or would it just be a case of focusing spells on buffs and similar no-save spells?

You start with a wisdom of 14, maybe int 10 and cha 7. That costs just 1 point in PF point buy which should allow you enough for the physical attributes. You can probably get by with just items to meet the minimum wisdom to cast your spells from there and put your level ups into strength or something.

And yes, if your primary combat tactic is hitting things then buffs and utility will take your spells, and you spontaneously cast summons as/when needed. You might have a single entangle/sickening entanglement and/or plant growth for when you need to do BFC, it's a small enough investment.

You might also be able to get a Guided Amulet of Mighty Fists.

TiaC wrote:You might also be able to get a Guided Amulet of Mighty Fists.

That is from the pathfinder adventure line (written for 3.5 before the pathfinder RPG was a thing).

And you can also play a vivesectionist / beastmorph alchemist I think, you'll get some shaping + sneak attack progression, not sure how good it is though.

How well does a Synthesist Summoner do?

radthemad4 wrote:How well does a Synthesist Summoner do?

In a standard game with fighters and rogues a SS will utterly dominate the "I beat that thing until it stops moving" niche, but if everyone else knows what they're doing a SS is kinda alright. It starts very strong because between your character and your eidolon you basically have two attribute pools to shift around to get the high scores you want. Later on you have to deal with effects like dismissal which sucks because you'll be left standing without your pants if that spell hits you. It is nowhere near as broken as people like to claim, but it does render certain character types so obsolete even diehard Paizo fans have noticed.

How does a Synthesist compare to a Druid built around hitting things?

A druid would generally have to wait a good while until they begin to hit things around, but really it depends.

Druid Advantages:
Full Casting.
Wild Shaping Lasting a long damn time.
Animal Companion or more spells are with you. Increasing your DPS and the amount of bodies you have out in the floor.
Better Fort Saves.

Synth Summoner Advantages:
Can essentially dump one's physical stats into the shitter.

TBH It's frankly a better idea to have the Summon outside of you. A Roc, Ape, Large Wolf and other sorts are IMO about on par to the Summon. Though one's Summon is more kitable.

I frankly just find Druids to be easier to roll with. They are classic, so rarely do people complain about their power. It might be a better idea to go with a Spell-Casting Druid and Summoner than one that is kitted towards battle, and the Summoner finds that they sacrifice less class features to do so.

Another thing that Synthesists benefit from is how ridiculously SAD most Charisma-based PF classes are these days. With enough splatbooks in the game you can add Cha to pretty much anything you want, sometimes even twice thanks to PF's terrible power descriptions. A player in my weekly game plays a Synthesist/Paladin and ever since 4th level or so he he's basically been immune to level-appropriate melee monsters and effects that require saving throws, and he wasn't even really trying.

Synthesist is a downgrade from regular Summoner. People only lose their shit over it because it doesn't even pretend to belong in a different "niche", it straight up takes the Fighter's pants and shits right into them.

A friend on minmax just pointed out to me two minor changes in pathfinder spells:

1) Planeshift material component is changed from a tuning fork of a specific size for the plane to a tuning fork "attuned" to a specific plane, whatever the fuck that means. So now DMs can hose you with bullshit about how you don't have a tuning fork to a plane and no one can ever get one without the wish spell, because no one has ever been to this plane and back, and so the tuning forks don't exist because you have to go to the plane to attune it.

2) Restoration now requires like 6 weeks of downtime if you lose 7 levels from the failed save 24 hours later, Still 7 castings as 3.5, but for no good reason at all, takes 7 weeks to do.