Pathfinder Is Still Bad

[Ice9]

I don't know of anyone complaining about the succubus being too weak for her CR back in 3.5, especially to justify the rather sizable buff given.

They are though, when in a straight-up combat situation. Yes, that's not where they'd want to be, they'd rather be operating behind the scenes, or at least behind some tankier demons, but hey - things don't always go as planned.

Besides, it's not like you can give a precise CR to a Succubus operating indirectly. One who's well connected in a powerful corrupt city would be infinitely higher "CR" than one who just showed up in a village where everyone knows each-other and the PCs are local heroes.

So if you make the CR correct for a direct fight, it will at least be accurate some of the time.

[Kaelik]

I don't know of anyone complaining about the succubus being too weak for her CR back in 3.5, especially to justify the rather sizable buff given.

They are though, when in a straight-up combat situation. Yes, that's not where they'd want to be, they'd rather be operating behind the scenes, or at least behind some tankier demons, but hey - things don't always go as planned.

Besides, it's not like you can give a precise CR to a Succubus operating indirectly. One who's well connected in a powerful corrupt city would be infinitely higher "CR" than one who just showed up in a village where everyone knows each-other and the PCs are local heroes.

So if you make the CR correct for a direct fight, it will at least be accurate some of the time.

If you make the CR appropriate for a Succubus who hasn't used her ability to have a minion, it will never ever ever be right, because she will always have at least one minion.

[Ice9]

Do you mean summoning a Vrock (only 30% chance, and only lasts an hour so often can't be used in advance)? That's the same issue for demons in general, really - most of them can summon more demons.

Or do you mean Charm Monster? In which case, it counts toward CR as normal anyway.

[RadiantPhoenix]

If a demon has a 50% chance to summon another demon just like it (but the new one can't summon another), then you just mark its CR 1 higher than it would otherwise have been without that.

It's that simple.

[Kaelik]

Do you mean summoning a Vrock (only 30% chance, and only lasts an hour so often can't be used in advance)? That's the same issue for demons in general, really - most of them can summon more demons.

Or do you mean Charm Monster? In which case, it counts toward CR as normal anyway.

No I mean her 1/day Dominate Monster that doesn't add to CR because monsters CR doesn't go up when they use their ability, just like Clerics that cast Animate Dead are still CR 4-5.

Whether or not charmed creatures should add to EL is a question that depends greatly on circumstance, but you don't give a Succubus the ability to have (presumably) up to 8 free minions, but definitely one at all times, and then balance her under the assumption she's not going to use it.

[Ice9]

No I mean her 1/day Dominate Monster that doesn't add to CR because monsters CR doesn't go up when they use their ability, just like Clerics that cast Animate Dead are still CR 4-5.

Animate Dead is one thing, it creates the minions with nothing required but some corpses, but a Cleric that had Rebuked, say, a bunch of Shadows is another thing. Most GMs would count the Shadows toward the CR, IME. I don't think you can simply take "desirable minion located, failed the save, didn't break free so far, didn't die so far either" as a freebie that doesn't affect CR.

Also, this is a moot point, because the 3.5 Succubus - the one I'm talking about, the one that supposedly "didn't need a power-up" - doesn't have Dominate Monster, just Charm Monster.

[Kaelik]

Animate Dead is one thing, it creates the minions with nothing required but some corpses, but a Cleric that had Rebuked, say, a bunch of Shadows is another thing. Most GMs would count the Shadows toward the CR, IME. I don't think you can simply take "desirable minion located, failed the save, didn't break free so far, didn't die so far either" as a freebie that doesn't affect CR.

Dominate as SLA has no effect that can be detected. She has it 1/day and it lasts 8 days. Once dominated, she can order someone to fail the save for the next 8 days. The fact is that Succubus does have a minion, she probably has multiple, but no DM is ever going to use that Succubus without at least one.

It's not expecting anything for the Succubus to have a minion. Just for her to have existed for more than a day.

Also, this is a moot point, because the 3.5 Succubus - the one I'm talking about, the one that supposedly "didn't need a power-up" - doesn't have Dominate Monster, just Charm Monster.

Except it's not even remotely moot, because the statement you made that I objected to is that you should balance a monster for a direct fight, which, if you do that, and she has the ability to have a free minion, means she will never ever be properly balanced. Your statement is wrong. You should not balance monsters with minion abilities as if they will not have minions, that way lies madness. So since Pathfinder followed your advice, and made a mistake, that is relevant.

[Grek]

For the Succubus, how many minions of what CR(s) under control using which spell will give the result closest to the ostensible CR 7 that a Succubus is alleged by the beastiary to be?

Honestly, I don't think you can give a good answer to that question without writing up several sample succubus encounters (some with minions, some without) and assigning each a different number.

[name_here]

The minion will damn well have its own CR to be taken into account. It doesn't go on the Succubus's CR. Having Charm Monster or Dominate Monster only impacts the CR in its ability to use that during the actual fight; potential free minions only mean it's unlikely to be encountered solo. There are actual guidelines for calculating the combat power of groups of monsters which you should use for any encounter with a monster that has brought minions with it.

[Kaelik]

The minion will damn well have its own CR to be taken into account. It doesn't go on the Succubus's CR. Having Charm Monster or Dominate Monster only impacts the CR in its ability to use that during the actual fight; potential free minions only mean it's unlikely to be encountered solo. There are actual guidelines for calculating the combat power of groups of monsters which you should use for any encounter with a monster that has brought minions with it.

YEAH, An Clerics are EL 10 encounters as soon as they turn level 5. And a Tome Summoner is always an EL at least one higher than his level. And a Nabassu, even thought it is CR 5, should only ever be fought by parties of level 10 or higher, because it has a bunch of Ghouls.

Also when Wizards cast fireball, their EL should go up, because I had more HP before they cast Fireball goddam it!

[spongeknight]

The minion will damn well have its own CR to be taken into account. It doesn't go on the Succubus's CR. Having Charm Monster or Dominate Monster only impacts the CR in its ability to use that during the actual fight; potential free minions only mean it's unlikely to be encountered solo. There are actual guidelines for calculating the combat power of groups of monsters which you should use for any encounter with a monster that has brought minions with it.

YEAH, An Clerics are EL 10 encounters as soon as they turn level 5. And a Tome Summoner is always an EL at least one higher than his level. And a Nabassu, even thought it is CR 5, should only ever be fought by parties of level 10 or higher, because it has a bunch of Ghouls.

Also when Wizards cast fireball, their EL should go up, because I had more HP before they cast Fireball goddam it!

Just to be clear, you're arguing that a succubus with a young black dragon, chimera, dracolisk, greater barghest, hill giant, invisible stalker, medusa, and a remorhaz all dominated at the start of the fight is a CR 7 fight because all of these minions were gained with the succubus' dominate monster ability, right? I mean, it's not like you have a totally incoherent stance where maybe some of a monster's abilities get used to set up a fight to increase its advantage but not, like, too much, man.

[Kaelik]

Just to be clear, you're arguing that a succubus with a young black dragon, chimera, dracolisk, greater barghest, hill giant, invisible stalker, medusa, and a remorhaz all dominated at the start of the fight is a CR 7 fight because all of these minions were gained with the succubus' dominate monster ability, right? I mean, it's not like you have a totally incoherent stance where maybe some of a monster's abilities get used to set up a fight to increase its advantage but not, like, too much, man.

No I'm arguing that just like when a Cleric uses Animate Dead, they don't get to describe the time they killed Paragon Half Fiend, Half Troll, Half Dragon, Half Illithid, Woodling, Half Giant, Half Troll, Half Troll, Half Troll, Lolthtouched Ettin. So two does a Succubus have to limit her Dominate Monster to things that exist, that she can find, and that she stay alive near long enough, and that will fail it's save. Since the Chimera is probably the only one on that list that could possibly meet that criteria, because I'm not going to look up all the monsters to check but I can already see it would fail most of them, she can have that one dominated 8 times so it never breaks free, or two of them dominate 4 times.

[spongeknight]

Just to be clear, you're arguing that a succubus with a young black dragon, chimera, dracolisk, greater barghest, hill giant, invisible stalker, medusa, and a remorhaz all dominated at the start of the fight is a CR 7 fight because all of these minions were gained with the succubus' dominate monster ability, right? I mean, it's not like you have a totally incoherent stance where maybe some of a monster's abilities get used to set up a fight to increase its advantage but not, like, too much, man.

No I'm arguing that just like when a Cleric uses Animate Dead, they don't get to describe the time they killed Paragon Half Fiend, Half Troll, Half Dragon, Half Illithid, Woodling, Half Giant, Half Troll, Half Troll, Half Troll, Lolthtouched Ettin. So two does a Succubus have to limit her Dominate Monster to things that exist, that she can find, and that she stay alive near long enough, and that will fail it's save. Since the Chimera is probably the only one on that list that could possibly meet that criteria, because I'm not going to look up all the monsters to check but I can already see it would fail most of them, she can have that one dominated 8 times so it never breaks free, or two of them dominate 4 times.

...and then she uses her two CR 7 beatsticks to hold another monster down while she dominates that one, and once that's accomplished, she uses her three minions to hold down a fourth and dominates that one... do you see how stupid this is? There is no fucking way to know how much a monster uses their abilities prior to fighting the PCs. None. Either the succubus starts the fight alone or she's allowed to just fucking fly off and come back in a week with a train of fellow CR 7 monsters that don't adjust the encounter level. And that's not even the end of it- her bluff is +19 and her diplomacy is +12 even before the "I'm a sex demon" circumstance bonuses. Can she just seduce a dozen more chain devils (sense motive +0) with her skills and that doesn't effect the encounter level either? Fighting a succubus with four dominated CR 7 minions and a dozen CR 6 fanatic allies doesn't sound like an EL 7 fight. And succubuses are, you know, immortal, so why exactly does she not have time to do this?

Your stance basically boils down to "As a DM I personally would give the succubus one, possibly two minions to round out this fight, then under-EL it a little bit for no particular reason," except you're announcing that everyone who doesn't do that is wrong. For reasons that are completely incoherent.

[Kaelik]

...and then she uses her two CR 7 beatsticks to hold another monster down while she dominates that one, and once that's accomplished, she uses her three minions to hold down a fourth and dominates that one... do you see how stupid this is? There is no fucking way to know how much a monster uses their abilities prior to fighting the PCs. None. Either the succubus starts the fight alone or she's allowed to just fucking fly off and come back in a week with a train of fellow CR 7 monsters that don't adjust the encounter level. And that's not even the end of it- her bluff is +19 and her diplomacy is +12 even before the "I'm a sex demon" circumstance bonuses. Can she just seduce a dozen more chain devils (sense motive +0) with her skills and that doesn't effect the encounter level either? Fighting a succubus with four dominated CR 7 minions and a dozen CR 6 fanatic allies doesn't sound like an EL 7 fight. And succubuses are, you know, immortal, so why exactly does she not have time to do this?

Your stance basically boils down to "As a DM I personally would give the succubus one, possibly two minions to round out this fight, then under-EL it a little bit for no particular reason," except you're announcing that everyone who doesn't do that is wrong. For reasons that are completely incoherent.

No, my stance basically boils down to "If you give a monster the ability to have free minions, you should CR it based on the assumption that it will use it's ability" Just like when you give a Demon a summon ability, you incorporate that into the CR.

Dominate Monster is a super OP ability, Diplomacy is fucking garbage, so fucking what? That's not my fault, I didn't write Diplomacy and I didn't write Dominate Monster. But Ravid's should be CRed as if they create Animated fucking Object. So should Black Slaads. Demons should be CRed based on their summons, and things with Dominate Monster should be CRed as if they will have minions, because they will have fucking minions.

I'm genuinely fucking surprised that this is a contentious point. I have never run into someone who demands that monsters have to be higher EL for casting their abilities. The Succubus should obviously not have been given Dominate Monster 1/day, she should have been given it 1/week, because Dominate Monster has a duration of CL days, so once a day is still mutliple minions.

[name_here]

If you put having minions into the Succubus's CR, you're putting her at the same CR whether she's got some goblin warrior minions or some CR 7 beatstick minions. Things should be given CRs based on what they can do during the fight and ELs based on what they have brought to the fight, because CR is a fixed number and they can bring different types and quantities of things to the fight. As far as the Succubus is concerned, you CR her based on being able to cast Dominate Monster on the party fighter once, because that's what she's virtually guaranteed to have available.

[Kaelik]

If you put having minions into the Succubus's CR, you're putting her at the same CR whether she's got some goblin warrior minions or some CR 7 beatstick minions. Things should be given CRs based on what they can do during the fight and ELs based on what they have brought to the fight, because CR is a fixed number and they can bring different types and quantities of things to the fight. As far as the Succubus is concerned, you CR her based on being able to cast Dominate Monster on the party fighter once, because that's what she's virtually guaranteed to have available.

And then you CR the Ravid as if it never ever animates anything, and then as soon as it uses it's every single fucking round free action animate ability, the party fucking dies.

Seriously, you keep describing problems with Dominate Monster and the entry of monsters without Dominate abilities, and then calling that a problem with CRing monsters, that's not how it works. The thing where Pathfinder is fucking dumb so they can't copy the thing that 3.5 already fucking does:

"A taskmaster is never encountered alone. One dominated nonformian creature always accompanies it (choose or determine randomly any creature of CR 4)"

does not mean that you CR monsters that obviously have fucking minions as if they have no minions.

Seriously dude, Formian Taskmasters exist. They have the ability to dominate up to 4 monsters or large size and stack like 15 dominate effects so that they never escape (until they walk into a Magic Circle effect). And that is part of their fucking CR. They are not CRed as if they have no minions. They are CRed as if the have a CR 4 monster as a minion, and then a suggestion that they have a CR 4 monster. You don't add the CR 4 monster to the EL of the encounter. Because that's stupid. And it's not my fault that James Jacobs is so dumb he gave a monster Dominate Monster without writing a suggested minion range or type.

Dominate Monster can break the game, so you as a DM should probably not break the game with it, just as your players shouldn't. The same goes for Animate Dead, Wish, and Gate.

Just because a monster with a Gate SLA could Gate a CR 40 Prismatic Dragon does not mean that it is a CR 40 creature, but it also doesn't mean that when it uses Gate it's CR goes up mid fight either. It means that you don't Gate a Prismatic Dragon, because Gate is broken.

Likewise, Dominate Monster is broken, so when you use Dominate Monster, or the Create Undead of a Pit Fiend, the EL doesn't go up for a creature that has that ability. But you also don't break the game with it, because it can break the game.

[Ice9]

Seriously dude, Formian Taskmasters exist. They have the ability to dominate up to 4 monsters or large size and stack like 15 dominate effects so that they never escape (until they walk into a Magic Circle effect). And that is part of their fucking CR. They are not CRed as if they have no minions. They are CRed as if the have a CR 4 monster as a minion, and then a suggestion that they have a CR 4 monster. You don't add the CR 4 monster to the EL of the encounter. Because that's stupid. And it's not my fault that James Jacobs is so dumb he gave a monster Dominate Monster without writing a suggested minion range or type.

That's the point - we can't CR the Succubus "accounting for minions from Dominate Monster", because that is an unbounded quantity that could be anywhere from "two shitty Commoner 1 minions, because it was summoned in a small village with very few options", to "eight Froghemoths (CR 13 each), because they have a better than even chance of failing the save and no way to hurt a flying Succubus". Same issue, to an extent, applies to other things like Animate Dead also - the difference between "regular human zombies" and "hydra zombies" is considerable.

You're acting like there's an objective standard for how many (and how powerful) minions are "reasonable", but in fact you're pulling it out of your ass. Dominate Monster doesn't give a shit about CR. It only cares about Will save bonus and (lack of) immunity.

Fortunately, there's a simple way to account for all of this:
1) For any minions obtained prior to combat, adjust the EL as normal.
2) Balance the monster around what additional minions it can acquire during combat, because that's the factor that won't already be accounted for.

[Kaelik]

So Ravids should kill PCs, and Formian Taskmasters don't exist...

You are depressing me.

[Ice9]

So Ravids should kill PCs, and Formian Taskmasters don't exist...

You are depressing me.

Formian Taskmasters:
1) Are already using less than their full capacity if you deploy them with the recommended single minion, given they can control four at a time. By that precedent, monsters that don't say they bring minions don't bring anything.
2) Can only control creatures CR 4 or weaker, by the rules. Big difference from the "eight creatures of arbitrary CR" a Succubus can bring to the party.

Ravids:
1) Do their minion-getting in combat time, so yes, you would factor that into the CR, as I already said.
2) Have random targeting on their animation ability, and are specifically called out as not using much tactics with it.
3) So a case like "surround Ravid with big adamantine statues, have it maintain position to put precisely those statues (and nothing else) in range of animation" would be atypical and merit a higher CR.

You need to pick better examples.

[Kaelik]

Formian Taskmasters:
1) Are already using less than their full capacity if you deploy them with the recommended single minion, given they can control four at a time. By that precedent, monsters that don't say they bring minions don't bring anything.
2) Can only control creatures CR 4 or weaker, by the rules. Big difference from the "eight creatures of arbitrary CR" a Succubus can bring to the party.

1) Formian Taskmasters, when you encounter them, are on recruitment drives, so of course they don't have four creatures, because you leave with one creature and come back with four, and that is how you recruit.
2) Can absolutely control things more than CR 4, there is nothing that stops them from using their Dominate on CR 19 monsters, They in fact are expected to spam Dominate on every PC in combat.
3) But the point is that encounter fucking guidelines, the things you write for monsters when you aren't shit, explain both why you encounter them, because they are out recruiting, and what they bring with them to go recruiting, and therefore what is in taken into account in their CR already.

The parallel to fucking Succubi is that if you are a competent game designer, you give monsters abilities that give them minions, but better written than Dominate Monster 1/day, you write in both what type of minion you designed the CR for, and you CR them for having a fucking minion. Because that is literally the entire fucking point of choosing a fucking succubus instead of some other CR 7 monster. You don't pick a Succubus to tell the story about how your PCs piledrived a non-combat monster with no minions into the ground, which is why Formian Taskmasters always have a minion, and they always use that minion to fucking defend them, and that minion always exists and is included in their CR.

Since Succubi in Pathfinder are explicitly monsters that have minions, they should damn well be CRed for their minions.

Ravids:
1) Do their minion-getting in combat time, so yes, you would factor that into the CR, as I already said.
2) Have random targeting on their animation ability, and are specifically called out as not using much tactics with it.
3) So a case like "surround Ravid with big adamantine statues, have it maintain position to put precisely those statues (and nothing else) in range of animation" would be atypical and merit a higher CR.

1) You literally can't factor Ravid fucking minions into their CR. They have the ability to create a new minion every round between CR 1 and CR 10. That makes them a fucking CR QUANTUM FUCK YOURSELF monster. Your belief that combat time minion creation is somehow super easy to CR but it is impossible to CR out of combat minion acquisition is the entire fucking point of bringing up the Ravid. Your system fails because you are wrong. It is way the fuck easier to CR something with Create Undead than it is a Ravid.
2) So your PCs only instantly fucking die some of the time because sometimes the Ravid only animates a pitchfork, and sometimes he animates the cart of shit next to the pitchfork. Or you know, he animates both, because he has tons of fucking defenses and the ability triggers every round, so you will definitely generate multiple animated fuck you here's a bunch more CR 5s to kill the PCs in pretty much every fight.

[Grek]

No, Kaelik. You're completely fucking wrong about the Ravid. I was with you about the Succubus and about the Taskmaster, but this is just stupid. As a DM working out a Ravid encounter, you figure out what objects will be in the room with the Ravid and put them on a list. Then you select up to 20 of those objects to be animated at the time the PCs show up. One more object in the room animates each round. It's CR 5 with ~25 minions picked out by the DM and the total encounter CR is based entirely on the combination of what objects the DM puts in the room with it and on what objects DM picks for the Ravid to randomly animate each round.

[Kaelik]

No, Kaelik. You're completely fucking wrong about the Ravid. I was with you about the Succubus and about the Taskmaster, but this is just stupid. As a DM working out a Ravid encounter, you figure out what objects will be in the room with the Ravid and put them on a list. Then you select up to 20 of those objects to be animated at the time the PCs show up. One more object in the room animates each round. It's CR 5 with ~25 minions picked out by the DM and the total encounter CR is based entirely on the combination of what objects the DM puts in the room with it and on what objects DM picks for the Ravid to randomly animate each round.

Uh... I don't think you understand my point. My point is that the Ravid as written is both:
a) Crappily written
b) not a fucking CR 5 even a little bit.

Regarding your example, super nope, ravids don't just stay in one room perpetually animating the same 20 objects, A Ravid is a puzzle encounter where animated objects are harassing people and it sucks, and then you get called in to hunt it down. It can do all kinds of damn things, but it should never just say in one spot animating 20 objects around it.

Then, when you do run it, you as the DM, can absolutely not run with random fucking generation of what it animates, this point I sort of agree with you on. But here's the thing, That means you agree with me, and not with Ice. Because Ice thinks that you should just pretend the Ravid is an EL 5 encounter, and if he randomly generates an animate fucking house that starts flattening the PCs, that is just part of his CR. But that's crazy. The Ravid ability of random who knows how big fucked up animations is just a stupid ability, it should just be a fucking random object up to medium (or maybe large) size, and then you can actually CR it.

Right now a Ravid is just CR 7 demon with a 5% chance of summoning a Balor with it's summon ability. Yeah, you can totally claim to have balanced it's CR based on the low chance, but you are full of shit, it's either not CR 7 at all, or it's a fucking TPK. And to say that you can just CR a Ravid as CR 5 because it's random whether he creates a CR 1/2 or a CR 10 each round is fucking crazy talk.

[virgil]

Paizo's succubus only gained a daily Dominate Person, not Dominate Monster, which is a notable distinction. I agree with Kaelik that the designer should have added a minion at no additional CR in a manner similar to the Formian Taskmaster.

Now, it's the Ravid part of the discussion I don't get. Are we seriously advocating that the CR of a Ravid shouldn't include monsters it summons mid-combat? I'm fine with saying it's poorly made, but to say its CR doesn't include the cart/table/etc it created mid-combat is the exact same argument as saying every caster NPC with a summon monster spell is an XP factory.

[Kaelik]

Paizo's succubus only gained a daily Dominate Person, not Dominate Monster, which is a notable distinction. I agree with Kaelik that the designer should have added a minion at no additional CR in a manner similar to the Formian Taskmaster.

Now, it's the Ravid part of the discussion I don't get. Are we seriously advocating that the CR of a Ravid shouldn't include monsters it summons mid-combat? I'm fine with saying it's poorly made, but to say its CR doesn't include the cart/table/etc it created mid-combat is the exact same argument as saying every caster NPC with a summon monster spell is an XP factory.

No I'm saying both 1) The Ravid is clearly higher than CR, at least as written, fuck all anything that can summon mid combat a CR 10 is not a CR 5.

2) The Ravid's completely random generation of what it brings to the fight is exactly like the Succubus's completely random what it brings to the fight. Dominate Monster and Animate Objects are both complete nonsense abilities that absolutely mandate that the DM limit them to be appropriate.

Saying "Man it's just too hard to CR the succubus as if she has a Dominate Minion, because she could dominate fucking anything! But we can totally CR the Ravid with his completely fucking random animate objects ability, because we know in advance that he will animate random things!" is bullshit.

If you can use a Ravid in a way that doesn't kill a level 3 party (which you can) by DM control over what animate objects exist and get animated, then it follows that you can do the same thing with Succubi Dominate. If anything, it is easier to do for the Succubi, because you have total control over what she dominates, but the PCs could just straight up drive the Ravid or Run away from the Ravid to the point where the objects become easier or harder.

If you can't CR a Succubi with Dominate, then you also can't CR a Ravid with animate objects, because they are both equally capable of being higher than their own CR, or super shitty if you the DM deliberately limit them.

[Grek]

It's CR 5 because you have to be a minimum of level 5 to credibly fight it. It has a 60' fly speed, so if you can't fly it wins regardless of what else is going on. But unless you're fighting the Sock Drawer Ravid (who lives in a giant sock drawer and only has socks to animate) the majority of that encounter's danger is going to come from the animated objects and the total EL is going to depend almost entirely on what objects are around to animate. A Ravid raiding a brewery full of barrels is more dangerous than that same Ravid attacking a tea parlour full of dainty ceramic cups but less dangerous than a Ravid that has been chained in a room with a collection of gargantuan minotaur statues. Even though the Ravid itself is only CR 5, the Statues + Ravid encounter is going to have a combined EL that is much, much higher.

Basically, what I'm saying is, if you put a Ravid in your game as a DM, you need to know in advance what it's going to be animating and whether the party can handle fighting 20 animated hot dog carts.

Actually, a much better way to put it is: A "Ravid" encounter isn't actually a fight against a CR 5 monster. It's a fight against 20 Animated Objects of whatever size the DM says there are, with a floating snake in the background that you can kill as an alternate win condition. The EL of that encounter should be whatever the EL of the 20 Animated Objects is.