Pathfinder Is Still Bad

Aryxbez · Post by **Aryxbez** » Fri Mar 25, 2016 2:35 am

Lurky Lurkpants wrote:However, the issue is she blasts you for not saying what she wants

Goddamn, what adventure was this? Most importantly, is she buttstabbable in this adventure, as this conversation was implying she joins the party? As I would totally make a Martial Master Fighter-idea to just go up to, and Red-Mist this petty Iomedea

Lurky Lurkpants · Post by **Lurky Lurkpants** » Fri Mar 25, 2016 4:47 am

Herald of the Ivory Labyrinth, part 5 of Wrath of the Righteous.

However, she is absolutely immune to stabbing. It states that "Deities exist beyond anything the rules say can or cannot happen." It also recommends additional lighting and choir music to emphasize and fantastic importance and unstabability.

Count Arioch the 28th · Fri Mar 25, 2016 7:28 am

Again, shitty encounter but....

1. In the first question EVERYONE has to both fail a DC 25 knowledge religion check (note: one person should be able to make that on a 1 at level 15/MT 7), and EVERYONE has to not act either confident or humble. Unless your whole team tells Iomedae to go fuck herself (which at that point her AI is set to "defend self if attacked", the players attacking her is not likely). It's literally trivial as long as you have one knowledge whore and at least one person acts humble if a group of 15th level characters with 17 chances to either add +1d10 to a skill check or re-roll it entirely at the bare minimum don't know. If one person knows, no one has to act humble or confident, it's an "and" statement and not an "or" statement.

2. The second question all you have to indicate is that it requires thought to know who deserves mercy and who doesn't. This is more of a dick move than the first, because if the party starts arguing you get hit with Iomedae's Asshole trumpets. No one is going to get the first one wrong, but you might get the second one wrong.

3. It's an adventure path where you have to fight demons. If someone asks you if you want to fight demons 5/6ths of the way through to a 20 level long mythic adventure path and your answer isn't "DEUS MOTHERFUCKIN' VULT!" then why aren't you playing something else? I heard Rise of the Runelords is a better adventure path.

Here's where my eyes roll out of my head. She heals and resurrects everyone in the group after the encounter is over who didn't attack her (although let's be honest, it's entirely possible after question 2, questions 1 you have to fail on purpose and question 3 you shouldn't fail if you've gotten this far in the path). Don't throw shit like that in there then take it back.

Also, I'd like to point out that the entire path you've been given boons for acting in an ultra-heroic fashion (such as free feats, SLA's, ability score increases, etc). All three of the questions will give you good shit if you get them right, so it's likely that the players are in the mindset of "kiss Iomedae's hairy arse to get good shit" since you've been doing that for a while now.

Lurky here isn't wrong that it's a monumentally shitty encounter. But he's not representing it well and I'd rather people think it was shitty based off its own merits and flaws and not from 4chan shitposting (I do it too, I know...)

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Fri Mar 25, 2016 8:35 am

That's totally not how I interpreted buttstabbing. Is she sexable?

Mask_De_H · Post by **Mask_De_H** » Fri Mar 25, 2016 8:39 am

Count Arioch the 28th wrote:It seems weird since the designers have such a hard-on for Chaotic Good, and I know at least one designer has stated that lawful good is another type of evil. You'd think there's be an awesome chaotic good paladin so JJ's waifus can take levels in it and be awesome.

It's called the (Temple Champion?) Warpriest and/or the Inquisitor. Now put that canard back on /tg/ where you found it. And stop dragging 4chan shit on the rug in general.

I don't fucking come here to read shit /pfg/ played out weeks ago and if I wanted shitposting, I'd just go back there.

Maxus · Post by **Maxus** » Fri Mar 25, 2016 8:57 am

Count Arioch the 28th wrote:It seems weird since the designers have such a hard-on for Chaotic Good, and I know at least one designer has stated that lawful good is another type of evil. You'd think there's be an awesome chaotic good paladin so JJ's waifus can take levels in it and be awesome.

That is seriously what Mark, my first DM who also made me ragequit, believed.

Good God. I hope he didn't get hired.

GâtFromKI · Post by **GâtFromKI** » Fri Mar 25, 2016 9:10 am

Lurky Lurkpants wrote:Next there is a question with no set answer, but if you answer without hesitation (which is to say confidently, the correct response to the first question), she has them blast you.

She also blasts you if you hesitate too much. She blasts the group if they all give the same answer, but she also blasts them if they discuss too long. Actually, I don't see how a group can not be blast at that question : the group needs a very precise degree of doubt and a very precise degree of confidence, there's no way any group will have precisely that amount of doubt/confidence.

In the other hand, I don't how anyone can be blast at first question. she doesn't blasts you if you're humble, and she doesn't blast you if you're confident and show no humility.

And as you said, the right answer to the third question is totally random: you you fail the second question by not hesitating and try to learn from your error, then you'll fail at third question. Because you tried to learn.

Basically, this encounter is the same gibberish as alignments descriptions. It doesn't make any sense, each part of it doesn't make any sense, and as a whole it doesn't make any sense. If you play the encounter as written, it's an auto-succes at first question and an auto-failure, it's so stupid that people play an other encounter anyway and defend the encounter they invented instead of the written encounter. Paizo's line of defense is "divinity aren't perfect in Golarion" and "good isn't nice". The problem isn't that Iomedae isn't perfect, it's that she's described as a 4-years-old spoiled child. There's no dignity or divinity or "grandeur" in the encounter, it's just Joffrey Baratheon throwing a tantrum instead of acting like a king. And the problem isn't that "good isn't nice", the problem is there's no fucking difference between Iomedae and Asmodeus: both of them sequestrate people and beat the shit out of them until they say what the gods want to hear.

It's shit flavored shit, I could see it in the personal notes of some MC (who write his note for he himself, and doesn't care if that doesn't make sense to any-else) but it's quite an accomplishment to have it in a published product.

GâtFromKI · Post by **GâtFromKI** » Fri Mar 25, 2016 9:26 am

Aryxbez wrote:Most importantly, is she buttstabbable in this adventure, as this conversation was implying she joins the party? As I would totally make a Martial Master Fighter-idea to just go up to, and Red-Mist this petty Iomedea

She's immune to stabbing.

Fun fact: she inflicts 5d6 damage for a failed answer at first question (then 10d6, and then 15d6), and an argument of defense of James Jacobs was "5d6 damage at that level is more a slap than an attack". You know what does the same damage at that level ? a magic missile. And you know what happen when you throw a magic missile during a conversation ? An initiative roll.

In the other hand, you know what is really a slap ? Any attack done to Iomedae. Because she's immune to damage. And you know what happen if you make any attack to Iomedae ? An initiative roll - well, actually no, there's no need of initiative since she's immune to all and can do anything to you, including teleporting you wherever she wants. Fucking stupid penis-enlarger DMPC to the 11.

Anyway, she responds to attacks even if it can't do anything to her; therefore the author acknowledge that an attack is an attack even if it's not dangerous. And still, the same author makes Iomedae attack the PC for no reason, and defends his choice by "it's not very dangerous so it's not an attacks". Fucking stupid author, fucking stupid editor, fucking stupid Paizo staff who defend that fucking stupid pile of shit.

This fucking encounter is the worst encounter I've ever read in any published product for any RPG. It's stupid and badly written and stupid again at every level, and I suspect I've lost some IQ points just by reading this pile of shit.

Prak wrote:That's totally not how I interpreted buttstabbing. Is she sexable?

As far as I remember, she also attacks if you try to seduce her.

Actually, she scolds you, and then she attacks if you don't stop. You know, she could just dismiss you - she summoned you after all - but no, she attacks.

Fun fact: Caiden Caylean is a divinity of Golarion who was formerly human. And when he was human, he tried to seduce another divinity, Callistria (and he scored when he became a god). Therefore, legendary humans trying to seduce a god without dying is a thing that can happen in Golarion.

But since the PC are shit flavored shit and not main characters, they can't do the same: they are just random stooge who must follow the railroad, not protagonists.

Count Arioch the 28th · Fri Mar 25, 2016 4:32 pm

Mask_De_H wrote: I don't fucking come here to read shit /pfg/ played out weeks ago and if I wanted shitposting, I'd just go back there.

You sound angry. Is it about elves?

(Okay, I'm stopping now).

Covent · Post by **Covent** » Fri Mar 25, 2016 6:32 pm

ARGHHHHH.

I am so glad I stopped paying money for Paizo books.

There new Ultimate Intrigue book has a section of "Advice".

With helpful things like "No really guys even though the spell scrying is specifically mentioned in the spell teleport, you totally cannot scry on someone and teleport to them unless you already knew where they were!"

Then the Paizo devs get on the boards and say stuff like

"It already kinda said this in our double secret rules, but you can totally ask your GM if you can scry and then teleport because we recognize all play styles here at Paizo the Hug company!"

*Head Desk*

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Fri Mar 25, 2016 6:41 pm

Fuck sake... do these people not realize that "look, we realized it was bad for the game, so we're suggesting this" is an option?

Ice9 · Post by **Ice9** » Fri Mar 25, 2016 7:16 pm

Prak wrote:Fuck sake... do these people not realize that "look, we realized it was bad for the game, so we're suggesting this" is an option?

I think they actually don't. Or rather, they can't - they've written themselves into a corner with how they built up PF.

4E came out and said "A lot of 3E was fucking broken, so we changed a bunch of shit and killed some sacred cows to fix it." Which they then failed at, but that' not important - the important part is that some people got really offended at being told that shit really was broken, and their mind-caulk wasn't the same as it not being broken in the first place.

So with PF, they've taken the opposite stance in a lot of ways: No, absolutely nothing is broken, and we're certainly not changing it - we're just ... clarifying. The game was, in fact, never broken, it was just those darn players not reading it right. At this point, I don't think they can admit anything else without losing some people.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Fri Mar 25, 2016 7:23 pm

Prak wrote:Fuck sake... do these people not realize that "look, we realized it was bad for the game, so we're suggesting this" is an option?

Would a Politician tell the truth?

Sure, they'll do anything to get elected.

Would Piazo admit to imperfection in any past incarnation of their rules while making changes?

No never. Not under any circumstances.

maglag · Post by **maglag** » Sat Mar 26, 2016 1:00 am

Did Microsoft ever admit that Windows Vista sucked?

Did Google ever admit that Google Wave was a complete failure?

Does EA admits that releasing half-finished games riddled with bugs was bad?

Never admiting that you made a big error is actually necessary to maintain a powerful company.

After all, if you don't at least pretend to trust in your own product, how can you expect the clients to do so?

Wotc shiting all over their own 3E was marketing suicide. They were basically saying "Yeah, we've actually been lazy and inneficient for the last decade or so. But now in this new edition we'll be serious. Word. Trust us, despite the fact we just admited we had little idea of what we've been doing for the last years."

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Sat Mar 26, 2016 1:07 am

maglag wrote:Never admiting that you made a big error is actually necessary to maintain a powerful company.

Admitting you made a mistake and correcting it isn't a death knell, it makes a lot of people happy to see progress. Apple can just not shut up about how every product they made a year ago is ass and terrible, and it seems to work fine for them.

No one would stop using google or youtube if Google admitted Wave was a failure. Tactically, you probably shouldn't admit that Vista sucks until after you've released or are about to release Windows 7, but admitting your mistakes and correcting your mistakes is one of the best possible ways to inspire consumer confidence in your new product.

WotC went whole hog shitting all over the concept of 3e, and that didn't work because 3e was mostly a great game so everyone who liked it was told they would hate 4e, but they turned around and did the same thing to 4e and that worked out, because 4e was garbage, so people are still praising 5e even though it basically doesn't exist.

maglag · Post by **maglag** » Sat Mar 26, 2016 1:22 am

Hmm, care to point me to any article where Apple is badmouthing their own stuff? I don't recall ever reading anything like that. The closest is that they're always releasing a new, improved isomething, which is supposedly even better than the previous. But again, don't remember ever seeing them "our previous isomething sucked, you should get rid of it".

Yes, companies need to recognize their mistakes and fix them to stay on top. But they do the recognizing errors part discretly. Google made a LOT of hype about wave, and then silently sweeped it under the rug when it crashed. Would people stop using youtube and google if they admitted they failed big time? Not in the short term, but it would be a chink on the armor, a blow to their customer's confidence, which may've allowed one of their many rivals to start gaining ground.

Anyway, google/Microsoft/EA/Activision/etc never admit that their latest failed product was a big mistake. They may fix it, they may release a new improved version, but they never publically admit that they screwed up big time.

As for 5e, it may be getting more praises than boos, but it certainly isn't getting any big profits, since, as you pointed out, there's no new books coming out to be sold. D&D is still a tiny shadow of its 3E self.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Sat Mar 26, 2016 1:27 am

maglag wrote:Would people stop using youtube and google if they admitted they failed big time? Not in the short term, but it would be a chink on the armor, a blow to their customer's confidence, which may've allowed one of their many rivals to start gaining ground.

You have no evidence for this position at all. So I'm going to go with:

"No, literally the opposite of all of that, I assert with equal evidence."

Leress · Post by **Leress** » Sat Mar 26, 2016 1:44 am

maglag wrote:Hmm, care to point me to any article where Apple is badmouthing their own stuff? I don't recall ever reading anything like that. The closest is that they're always releasing a new, improved isomething, which is supposedly even better than the previous. But again, don't remember ever seeing them "our previous isomething sucked, you should get rid of it".

Apple:

http://www.pcworld.com/article/259227/a ... epeat.html

http://blogs.wsj.com/digits/2016/02/18/ ... ffers-fix/

EA:

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/we-at ... iccitiello

Gnorman · Post by **Gnorman** » Sun Mar 27, 2016 3:45 am

There's certainly a perception among certain circles that never admitting you made a mistake is necessary to maintaining a strong company.

Those circles include both James Jacobs and Donald Trump, though, so make of that what you will.

Covent · Post by **Covent** » Sun Mar 27, 2016 6:11 pm

The blatant apologists on some other forums do not help. There are quite a few posters that insist that the scrying/teleport advice was always the way things worked and Paizo is flawless and wonderful for giving us this and other holy "clarifications".

I really am glad I stopped buying Paizo books. They almost roped me back in with The Curse of the Crimson Throne hardback but Ultimate Intrigue sealed it for me. Not buying anything from Paizo unless I have already had time and availability of the product and approve of >80% of the content. They just cannot be trusted to put out worthwhile material.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Sun Mar 27, 2016 6:13 pm

What's your problem with the CotCT hardback? My group decided to try out PF and I'm going to run that adventure.

Covent · Post by **Covent** » Sun Mar 27, 2016 6:37 pm

I was actually extremely excited about the CotCT hardcover. I just have decided based on the downhill slope of the ACG-->Unchained-->UI releases and the post ACG "errata" spate that I will not buy any Paizo product before I have had access to it and a chance to thoroughly look it over.

I was making an exception for APs but after UI no more.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Sun Mar 27, 2016 6:39 pm

Well, CotCT is an older AP, originally for 3.5, so you can take a look at that. I think the hardcover is just an update and collection of the six modules.

Maxus · Post by **Maxus** » Sun Mar 27, 2016 6:43 pm

Prak wrote:Well, CotCT is an older AP, originally for 3.5, so you can take a look at that. I think the hardcover is just an update and collection of the sex modules.

Wait, what?

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Sun Mar 27, 2016 6:47 pm

SIX.

I meant six. My hands cooperate poorly when typing.