[Politics] Abortion Failure Megathread

[DSMatticus]

I would add that is a phenomenon almost exclusive of American-Blacks.

Contradicts your position: the argument is that America institutionally discriminates against African Americans, causing poverty and crime. If the phenomenon of poverty and crime happens to be exclusive to the places where they are discriminated against (i.e. America, for example), this supports the theory. It does not undermine it.

My theory is that, as usual, the welfare nanny state destroys people.

Your theories don't matter, they're stupid; that's what facts are for. Demonstrate an example of 'the welfare nanny state' destroying people. More importantly, please look at what you said above and what you said now. Who are you comparing us to, Europe? The place that is hailed by conservatives as an even bigger nanny state than us? If it is exclusive to the U.S., and we are the least nanny-state out there, this contradicts your claims that the nanny state is causing it.

Paying single moms for each bastard spawn encourages them to pop out more.

There are zero examples in the entire U.S. of anyone making a profit by having children in the way you describe. The pay is less than the child costs by a huge margin. This is just a stupid bullshit conservative claim that has never held up to facts.

Weird that the country with the huge welfare state, Britain, also has the same problem.

1) Britain's pretty conservative for Europe. They're fairly close to us in terms of social policy. They are the least-nanny of those "damn socialist European nanny states." Even if it's true that they have this problem, that would lead to the opposite conclusion of your position: that the lack of social programs is the cause.

2) You're undoubtably alluding to the recent youth riots, which happened when a bunch of conservatives got elected and started cutting social programs. Again, evidence in support of the opposite of your position: lack of social programs is the cause.

3) They don't actually have the exact same problem. That's just a lie. They have stronger social programs and less minority-oriented poverty and crime. Again, leading us to the opposite of the conclusion you want.

tl;dr everything you just said to support your position contradicts it. God damn, man.

[Psychic Robot]

what you must understand is that dsmatticus is wrong on virtually everything. if he says something there is a 95% chance that the inverse of it is true.

[Gx1080]

http://www.isteve.com/2003_black_illegi ... clines.htm

The good news from the federal government's preliminary birthrate data for 2002 is that the black illegitimacy rate has not only stopped getting worse, but it is now in a gradual decline. Last year, 68.0 percent of the black women who had babies were unmarried, down from 68.4 percent in 2001. The peak was 70.4 percent in 1994.

Unfortunately, if the rate keeps falling 0.4 percentage points per year, it will take 115 years to return to the 22 percent level of the early 1960s that so alarmed Johnson Administration adviser Daniel Patrick Moynihan when he wrote a controversial report called "The Negro Family: The Case for National Action."

Weird, I wonder what changed since early 1960.

[Psychic Robot]

quoting steve sailer? prepare for an epic limp out.

[shadzar]

http://www.isteve.com/2003_black_illegi ... clines.htm

The good news from the federal government's preliminary birthrate data for 2002 is that the black illegitimacy rate has not only stopped getting worse, but it is now in a gradual decline. Last year, 68.0 percent of the black women who had babies were unmarried, down from 68.4 percent in 2001. The peak was 70.4 percent in 1994.

Unfortunately, if the rate keeps falling 0.4 percentage points per year, it will take 115 years to return to the 22 percent level of the early 1960s that so alarmed Johnson Administration adviser Daniel Patrick Moynihan when he wrote a controversial report called "The Negro Family: The Case for National Action."

Weird, I wonder what changed since early 1960.

60's? pot, cocaine...prostitution in order to buy those while staying on welfare.

[Grek]

And this isn't fault of Blacks, even with Affirmative Action because....?

Black people are usually poor because most black people are born to relatively poor families. Being born poor means you are extremely likely to stay poor, due to a bad education, fewer useful contacts and, as DSM mentioned, the Tyrone effect on resumes. It's not exclusive to black people. Poor hispanic people, poor white people, poor asian people and poor indian people are also extremely likely to stay poor. It isn't race that decides if you're going to have a shitty time getting gainful employment, it's how much money your parents made.

It's not that the victims here are lazy, drug addicted, hooker-killing gang members who can't be bothered to make something of themselves, it's that growing up poor (and, to a lesser extent, black) makes it more difficult for you to get into college, become educated and find a legitimate job for yourself. And, as with most things, when the right way to do something is blocked off, people will try to do it the wrong way. In this case by joining a gang, running drugs, becoming an addict or getting married way too soon.

[Orion]

Well, it's both/and. Yes, being a poor white person sucks a lot more than many Americans realize. But a white American from a poor family will still have an easier time getting hired than a black American from a family of equal income.

[Psychic Robot]

actually the real problem in black households is not poverty, it's the lack of a two-parent family. when you have that support structure, you are less likely to fuck up in life and you're less likely to be poor.

once again: handing out more money is not going to solve the problem. kids need a two-parent household because it's what makes society function.

[Starmaker]

The good news from the federal government's preliminary birthrate data for 2002 is that the black illegitimacy rate has not only stopped getting worse, but it is now in a gradual decline. Last year, 68.0 percent of the black women who had babies were unmarried, down from 68.4 percent in 2001. The peak was 70.4 percent in 1994.

>the black illegitimacy rate
>illegitimacy rate
>illegitimacy

Every birth is legitimate unless you are legally banned from having children (e.g. One Child Policy in China). You are a fuckhead and your source is a fuckhead. Congrats.

[Gnosticism Is A Hoot]

look at fucking britain. their social safety net is far greater than ours and blacks "youths" still rioted.
.

The recent London riots were pretty fucking multi-racial, actually. Britain in general tends to have *more* problems with its depressed white underclass than with its depressed black underclass.

[Gx1080]

@Starmaker

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/illegitimate

1 : not recognized as lawful offspring; specifically : born of parents not married to each other

The more you know.

[Gnosticism Is A Hoot]

@Starmaker

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/illegitimate

1 : not recognized as lawful offspring; specifically : born of parents not married to each other

The more you know.

Pretty sure your parents don't have to be married in order to count as 'lawful offspring' any more.

[sabs]

Actually to be legitamate your parents didn't have to be married. Your father had to acknowledge you were his child. It happened all the time.

[tzor]

actually I totally agree, which is why I support returning manufacturing jobs to america through the use of tariffs and punitive taxes on companies that outsource.

And I will respectfully disagree. While I do agree that government doesn’t give out stupid licences, the inalienable right to do dumb things is one of those rights Jefferson would have put in his declaration had the standards for congressional documents been that of modern day standards where all laws are hundreds of pages long. (In fact, Jefferson was a prime example of doing dumb things, continuing to grow a highly cyclical crop of tobacco, as opposed to Washington who grew wheat that could be easily converted to liquid assets – whiskey – when the market was down. This was why Washington was a rich man and Jefferson was in debt up to his eyeballs. Still he had an inalienable right to be not optimal.)

The fact is that outsourcing only appears to work because executives are too lazy to do the right thing and too lazy to notice that they could be making even more profits doing the right thing. You don’t need tariffs or taxes to get people to invest in the US; you need people who want to invest in the US. Let’s take a good example, the privately owned company Brooks Brothers. I just heard the CEO on Bloomberg Surveillance this morning. Now the clothing industry has been outsourcing for many decades. Because they have had a long tradition of clothing manufacture in the United States (since 1818 they are now the oldest) they wanted to keep manufacturing here in the US. They discovered it wasn’t the cost of employees that was the problem; it was the old equipment. They were able to upgrade the equipment and keep the employees. They also started taking over other plants that were about to close and turned them around as well. Now they are private, so I don’t have the numbers, but let’s say they are doing quite well, profit wise. And all without a single tax or tariff in a market where most people gave up hopes in the US decades ago.

Isolationism is never the answer. Some markets (like Jefferson’s tobacco) are massively dependent on export in order to survive. Taxes and tariffs result in retribution and choke our exporting ability. The bottom line is that there are more of them than there are of us … meaning that there are more customers out there for us than there are customers in here for them.

[Gx1080]

LOL at people arguing against a dictionary definition.

[tzor]

And the fancy polite society word as well. Why not call them a bastard and be done with it?

[Gnosticism Is A Hoot]

LOL at people arguing against a dictionary definition.

LOL at people who think language is prescriptive rather than descriptive.

[Kaelik]

LOL at the people who think dictionary definitions are magic reality rewriting tools, and actually matter more than usage.

[Gx1080]

=/

Is a word, and has a meaning. Whatever other meaning is assigned is unimportant. Fruit didn't stop being food when it was used to describe effeminate men.

Besides, you have to call out of wedlock births something. And Illegitimate is still a word used for that:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legitimacy_%28law%29
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/illegitimate

Quit the butthurt.

@tzor

Problem is, huge amounts of outsourcing leads to Brazil-style two-tier societies aka everybody being told that they have to accept Chinese wages or be shit out of luck. That's bad because most people don't want to work for 15 cents/hour. And it leads to Brazil-style two-tier societies.

[sabs]

I agree with Tzor, lets just call a spade a spade and call them Bastards.

[Gx1080]

Well, I do agree with just calling them bastard spawn, but the fact that people want to argue what a word means even when all dictionaries say the same makes me go

[tzor]

Problem is, huge amounts of outsourcing leads to Brazil-style two-tier societies aka everybody being told that they have to accept Chinese wages or be shit out of lock. That's bad because most people don't want to work for 15 cents/hour. And it leads to Brazil-style two-tier societies.

The China problem is an interesting one. It gets complex because of two factors; China actively manipulates its currency and China is really large, so much so that effects simply take longer to happen there. (But it also makes China unique, there is no other "China" waiting in the wings to do what China did.)

Before I continue, understand there are real problems in the world markets; forced labor, child labor, massively unsafe or environmentally damaging conditions; all these things contribute to unfair wage lowering. Corrective tarrifs against these practices is totally justified in my opinion.

Any nation that simply attempts to use lower wages as a means of getting production will generally start to see good growth. This growth, however, is a two edged sword, because it results in pressure for wage inflation as a result and this moves the advantage away from the naiton. China has already experiened massive wage inflation because of their success, even with currency manipulation the real "low wage" jobs are already moved to other parts of Asia.

In fact, massive outsourcing is the exact opposite of the Ford model of "If I pay my workers decently enough, they can afford to buy my product and in turn become promotional devices to get others to buy my product." The Brazil model fails long term because you endanger the potential customer supply.

[RadiantPhoenix]

Wait, why are blowjobs and anal sex in the politics thread, and economic politics in the thread about not having babies? I am confuzzled.

[Whatever]

Wait, why are blowjobs and anal sex in the politics thread, and economic politics in the thread about not having babies? I am confuzzled.

If it helps, they're talking about the assault on traditional marriage in the non-political news thread.

[tzor]

Getting back to abortion. Preborn Children Lobby on Capitol Hill

Brandi Swindell from Stanton Healthcare in Boise, Idaho, explained it this way:

“We are taking a brand new, state-of-the-art ultrasound machine to a Congressional Auditorium on Capitol Hill in which we are going to invite all the members of Congress to come to this presentation where they are going to see — in real time — preborn children in their mothers’ womb… Even when it’s five and six weeks old — the size of a grain of rice — you can still pick up that beating heart. And it is so powerful as you see the baby grow in the womb, and you can start to make out the fingers and the toes and the head and the little body forming.”