Mutants and Masterminds d20 2nd Edition Thoughts

[virgil]

I take it you've been reading the Atomic Thinktank some to come to the conclusion that 'not many' are doing these sort of things. The reason you don't see people do some of these things is a combination of reasons. Back in 1st edition, points were more scarce, especially since feats & skills were drastically more expensive. As a result, this encouraged an already prevalent behavior of people buying powers before even thinking of skills/feats, leaving little wiggle room. Also, their mental concept does hinder choices. If their idea doesn't include certain options, they won't choose them. Of course, this can go too far, as I had one player that would avoid EVERYTHING that wasn't the two things his superhero does, which was the basic super-speed power and unreliable time control, and I had to argue with him that 'slowing down time' (for his super speed) allowed his body to move through the air (he was ready and willing to have his super speed actually just be 'plenty of time to think').

Now, for the rest of your many, many questions...

For the feat into a array vs cost-savings: Yes, the savings is the same, but it's a matter of semantics, especially since attack specialization is the same thing as accurate. It would basically look like this...
Enlightened Fist, Strike 10
Extra: Penetrating
Enhanced Feats: Attack Specialization (strike) 5, Alternate Power 2
Alternate A
Mental Blast 10
Flaw: Mental Weapon
Enhanced Feat: Attack Specialization (mental blast) 5
Alternate B
Trip 10
Extra: Knockback
Enhanced Feat: Attack Specialization (trip) 5

The extended reach power feat for melee attacks isn't intended to be taken too many times (due to said inefficiency you mention), unless you're using the elongation power, which is a good savings as it increases your melee reach in everything and then you can just take a bunch of melee range effects and get the bonus to all of them.

If you're the type that had a high bluff/acrobatics, there isn't a reason you would avoid using it, unless you wanted move and attack that round.

Equipment is an awesome deal if the bonus the item provides is all you want, like a defense trade-off character wearing armor or a high accuracy gun-bunny. Not many DMs even realize the fragile nature of equipment, so it's a flaw more than a couple players can sneak by without seeing.

Easy to regain easy-to-lose device you say? Personally, I think that's one of those 'not really a flaw' situations where a drawback's more appropriate (power loss when hands are occupied), but here's what I can cook up.
Master's Call
Teleport 1
Extra: Attack (+0), Ranged - Perception (+2), No Save (+2)
Flaw: Short range (-1), Device only (-2), Limited (to hand, -1)
Cost: 2pp

Master plan is one of those concept feats, along with the fact that many people figure they'll be using their precious hero points on other things and don't want to be without because they have a power that drains them, especially since it's generally not something you do in response to attacks (which is the hero's lot most of the time). Luck Control has a similar reason for avoidance, on top of the fact that it's a very metagamey power, which makes the "roleplayers" hesitant to mess with it. Oh, and both effects speak alot towards a certain concept, which not everyone makes.

Computer skill is generally a concept skill for the digital-oriented heroes, especially in regards to maxing it out.

Applying flaws on ability scores can technically be done, but suffers from that semantics issue. You can't actually put it on the score, but you can apply it to the Enhanced Ability power.

Since you're starting to just make lists, I'll do the same on responses. Just remember that these are the likely reasons why they wouldn't be touched much, as there are still those that do actually choose them, or the people that just plain run out of points to spend.
* Second Chance/Ultimate Effort: Usually too specific, specialization more obvious through other means
* Redirect: Mental image weird, hero points can represent if the situation fits
* Eidetic Memory: That's just someone being a moron if they're character's knowledge oriented
* Grappling Finesse: Most make grapplers strength-based, which gives higher potential modifiers than dexterity (and it's not in concept for a brute in their mind)
* Improved Critical: Heavy use sets off DMs because of its PL-breaking nature
* Diehard: Infrequent use, hero points can cover this
* Blindfight: Unless its a Batman type, super-senses is the preferred venue
* Evasion for bricks: All concept there, I know of some DMs that whip out the veto-hammer for that
* Prone Fighting for snipers: Concept feat for martial artists, also considered silly-looking and bordering on abusive because ranged attacks somehow retain the -4 when in melee range
* Precise Shot: Ignorance for the first one, and two ranks of it is for sniper concepts
* Connected/Well-Informed: Concept feats, and connected suffers from DM whims in terms of effectiveness
* Skill Mastery: Many aren't very skill focused, and those that are are usually good enough they don't need to Take 10
* Uncanny Dodge: Very concept heavy, also vulnerable to sensory deprivation and tying to esoteric senses can be seen as abusive by some

* Power/Defensive/Accurate/All-Out Attack: These are obvious feats in terms of showing one's martial prowess, and usually considered needed when fighting those with good amounts of tradeoffs
* Stunning Attack: It's a cheap AP, and attracts the D&D crowd who like monks
* Track: Concept, especially for those that don't have super-senses
* Teamwork: To my knowledge, Aid isn't capped. But heavy use is considered abusive by real DMs as a means to break PL caps
* Improved Grapple: It's a cool visual, & the fact it takes an attack to pin (which only lasts a round) is a rule not many are even aware of
* Interpose: Considered the way to have a large sign saying "I am a tank"
* Inspire: It's like Master Plan, but usable on the fly, can give a higher bonus, and has a more 'heroic' feel to it. Not many consider the duration difference.
* Fearless: Concept, and makes you immune to Intimidate checks, as well as some power sources
* Assessment: A way to have an excuse to metagame, especially for the 'strategic' types
* Ambidexterity: Concept

[Lago_AM3P]

Virgileso, I'm still wondering why you're down on autofire.

It's expensive as hell, but also extremely devastating when it works--and it's not too hard to get it to work. I mean, you have surprise attacks, ultimate effort, hero points, so-on.

The extended reach power feat for melee attacks isn't intended to be taken too many times (due to said inefficiency you mention), unless you're using the elongation power, which is a good savings as it increases your melee reach in everything and then you can just take a bunch of melee range effects and get the bonus to all of them.

Is there a better way to make your melee attacks ranged aside from elongation?

That can be a very dangerous power if you're not careful.

Master plan is one of those concept feats, along with the fact that many people figure they'll be using their precious hero points on other things and don't want to be without because they have a power that drains them, especially since it's generally not something you do in response to attacks (which is the hero's lot most of the time).

Well, you don't have to use hero points to get your master plan on. It's just that you need to use it if you don't have a high intelligence bonus. Unless I could get pointed to a cheap way to sex out the bonus to the check to represent characters like Aang, Naruto, Luffy, and the Flash who aren't normally very smart/wise but come up with awesome Scooby-Doo plans?

Luck Control has a similar reason for avoidance, on top of the fact that it's a very metagamey power, which makes the "roleplayers" hesitant to mess with it. Oh, and both effects speak alot towards a certain concept, which not everyone makes.

That's really weird. I came to the opposite conclusion.

I'd think Luck Control would be a very easy power to roleplay--it's one of the most flavorful powers ever.

For example, someone could shout, 'Okay, gang, attack formation B!' and everyone uses the 'surge' extra effort option--and the hero uses Luck Control to stave off the fatigue. It's explained that the team's sudden burst in awesomeness is due to training, planning, and everything falling into place at the right time.

Or you have a tricky swordsman-type character like the Scarlet Pimpernel or Elan; even the best martial artists find dueling them extremely tricky because they're always fighting you with their backs to the noon sun, shifting the carpet you're fighting on to lose your balance, making comments about your mother at the inappropriate moment, etc.

* Grappling Finesse: Most make grapplers strength-based, which gives higher potential modifiers than dexterity (and it's not in concept for a brute in their mind)

Grappling Finesse lets you get your dodge bonus when you're grappled though, which is awesome.

* Second Chance/Ultimate Effort: Usually too specific, specialization more obvious through other means

People don't pick up second chance at least for saves or attacks where you must succeed?

* Blindfight: Unless its a Batman type, super-senses is the preferred venue

Blindfight heavily reduces the penalties for concealment, though; if you can't penetrate someone's hiding skill then you're pretty much boned.

* Prone Fighting for snipers: Concept feat for martial artists, also considered silly-looking and bordering on abusive because ranged attacks somehow retain the -4 when in melee range

People haven't seen the hundreds of movies where someone takes a diving leap behind cover and then starts blasting/shooting the holy hell out of the other dumbasses with guns?

* Precise Shot: Ignorance for the first one, and two ranks of it is for sniper concepts

Almost everyone has a significant ranged attack of some sort, though. From what I've read the only people who don't have blast/whatever are those with perception attacks or guys like Johnny Rocket.

* Uncanny Dodge: Very concept heavy, also vulnerable to sensory deprivation and tying to esoteric senses can be seen as abusive by some

Why's that? If you lose your dodge bonus then you're completely screwed--especially in M&M where it's impossible NOT to have a significant dodge bonus unless your defense score is completely in the toilet.

* Teamwork: To my knowledge, Aid isn't capped. But heavy use is considered abusive by real DMs as a means to break PL caps

I've been reading the book like crazy and I even read the FAQ and errata but can't find where it says that Aid can break PL caps.

[virgil]

Autofire works like a reactive power attack, but for drastically higher price, in exchange for being able to break PL caps. I myself put it in the same family as Improved Critical, alright in small dosages, but not something I want to see specialization in for the express purpose of breaking caps.

Other than extended reach and elongation (coupled with flavour text alteration), melee attacks are pretty solidly melee range.

For Master Plan, the name just evokes a cerebral character for many, and that's the reason it's avoided; basically an inability to change the flavour-text because of the name. If you wanted to get the bonus without high Intelligence, take Enhanced Intelligence and flaw it to only apply to Master Plan use (about a -1 or -2 penalty).

I know you can describe it as flavourful, as can I. But the problem is that the common player does not. The very fact that they have to sit back and think of a how it works in the game 'breaks' the experience for them.

I know Grappling Finesse is awesome for that, but the common player sees the word Finesse and don't think that applies to a brute.

Second Chance/Ultimate Effort is a preventative measure that requires more thought than just giving yourself a high bonus to that check

While Blindfight reduces concealment penalties, most would rather consider characters with senses that aren't hampered by standard forms of concealment anyway.

Yeah, people make diving leaps in action movies with guns, but they're never in melee when they do that.

Almost everyone has a significant ranged attack of some sort, though. From what I've read the only people who don't have blast/whatever are those with perception attacks or guys like Johnny Rocket.

Doesn't change the fact that unless they have the 'sniper' (as opposed to blaster) concept in mind, Precise Shot 2 doesn't crop up.

Yes, Uncanny Dodge is good for that, but it doesn't change the fact that people don't bother with it unless their concept includes a very high level of awareness (moreso than 'trained soldier' level).

I've been reading the book like crazy and I even read the FAQ and errata but can't find where it says that Aid can break PL caps.

Then there exists the very real possibility that people don't realize this fact. Also, if Aid doesn't break PL caps, then the ONLY time it's of use is if you intentionally lower your attack/damage total to less than the PL and have minions around to boost it back up for point-savings.

[Lago_AM3P]

Other than extended reach and elongation (coupled with flavour text alteration), melee attacks are pretty solidly melee range.

You can't use the progression extra on them?

Well, I can see why, though. If you're meleeing someone and they have to use move actions to melee you back then it's already paying for itself.

What was that about having a shield that's cheap and fun?

More comments that I didn't get to look at earlier:

I know that skills in computers isn't for everyone, but I don't know any serious P&P superhero team that wouldn't have one computer techie in it--even the loser underpowered throwaway teams in the sourcebooks generally have at least one person per team that can generate a sizable computer use bonus.

In your experience, how often do you see characters who intentionally have a large array of AP attacks whose only difference is the kind of save it targets and what's the DM's reaction to those? Unless you're playing a character like Green Arrow it seems kind of silly... but then again, the game throws out powers like transform and plant control and congratulates you for using the powers in the array to the fully and regardless often has heroes/villain use extra effort to tailor their powers.

Actually, when I think about it, while Green Arrow doesn't seem all that useful in the comics compared to his other teammates, his power would be crazy good with some stat tweaking. Characters like Flash and the Hulk tend to get screwed by the flavor text while characters like Batman and Zatanna get the goodies. Was this design intent?

Also, in your opinion, which seems like the best direction to go for attack/damage defense/toughness tradeoffs? It seems like trading attack for damage is the way to go (esp. for published adventures), because penalties to attack seem to come up more often than to damage. On the other hand, getting screwed by impervious toughness makes me sad.

Conversely, being able to dodge is like an extra save but you get the short end of the stick for perception-range powers. Decisions...

While I'm on the subject, it seems that dark, life, or sound control seems like the best elemental array since it's not hard to get an effect that would target each save with a little imagination. For example, for darkness you could get an energy-sapping effect (fortitude), having your shadow fastened in place (reflex), the ineffable voice of darkness (will), and 'blasts' of shadow (toughness).

Also, go over that thing with continous effects in alternate power arrays again? Maybe I'm reading it wrong but for things like snare and nauseate, you could nail a melvin with that power array and then stick to something you really want to.

[Lago_AM3P]

By the way, how often does 'inspiration' see use in the campaigns you run?

I mean, how often have we seen some villain drawing upon a secret source of power or running around with an X ability or having some unnatural influence or using some KUH-RAAAAAZY device and the whole plot is the heroes figuring out how to counter it?

I know it costs a hero point but moving the adventure forward the way you like seems like such an awesome ability that it looks like it would get used more often. I think having the ability for the GM to connect 2 and 2 together for you is worth more than an instant recovery check.

(edit: this isn't a min-max question, but while we're at it, do your players ever do something like wildly go off on red herrings if there's nothing more pressing to do? I've heard (or rather read on iRC) about an adventure where some players were putting away some garden variety thugs and some bored hero deciding to check ALL of their connections in case it led to some secret mafia conspiracy or could implicate a Kingpin-like villain. Stuff like that.)

[Lago_AM3P]

Also not related to min-maxxing, but could you tell me some more of your or your players' memorable tales? I'm in the mood for a homebrew superhero adventure

[virgil]

You can theoretically use progression on extended reach (which is a bit of a stretch, rules-wise), but you've already said why that's not something that needs to be done.

I actually don't see that many characters who have a large AP array of different save attacks, they're happy with just one AP most of the time. Some DMs feel like it's an overly cheap way to get attacks, while others realize that extra effort would be doing it anyway and you very quickly hit a point of diminishing returns if you go too AP crazy.

As for concepts with lots of options, speedsters & bricks can hold their own with sufficient flavour text...
* Create Object - Either you run around and build it in the blink of an eye (actual objects) or you punch the rock soo precisely it breaks into the desired shape (only with materials on hand)
* Reflex Saves - Easy for a living whirlwind, and the thunderclap/stomp technique is common even for the Hulk
* Fortitude Saves - Stunning attack is an obvious feat, but speedsters can easily use Sonic Control and attacks can be of such force/power they nauseate their victims

While penalties to attack are more frequent than damage, so are the bonuses, so it's frequently a wash. All in all, having a high toughness is tougher to work around than a high defense, though impervious toughness is quite vulnerable to even small amounts of penetrating extras unless the trade-off is large (which many DMs don't like to see).

Continuous doesn't neccessarily carry over between AP usage, but the Lasting quality to the duration is the kicker that allows your Snare/Nauseate to work wonders when in an array.

I'm used to DMing non-M&M games, so I'm not used to using 'inspiration' and have yet to experiment with it in my games thus far. My players these days are also relatively mundane, so they don't have much of their own initiative and thus don't do much in the way of red herrings on their own.

As for personal events in the M&M games I've run, there was the fun when I had the party fight a high-defense martial artist. He tripped and slammed down the party brick while they were on the pier, making the brick fall into the sea below and have to walk up the shore to return to the fight. Another time I ran the entire party with slightly altered characters and it was revealed they were actually miniature voodoo-like dolls made to be like their characters, giving them their normal characters and having to fight them; which was amusing as hell, as the ninja of the party was unseeable with the size bonus to Stealth and the party brick got to use his mouth's disintegrate power in combat for once (picked up one of the mini-heroes and started chewing).

One of the players was a speedster and both player and character are rather impulsive, so anytime the party mentions where they might need to go, the speedster's already there waiting; quite amusing when there are mind-controlling villains at the scene. Heck, another time, he just went to Wales & began searching because one of the villains appeared in a Welsh myth; forcing the techie player to hack into the phone system and call a random payphone in Wales where the speedster picked it up because it was ringing and told to come back to California. By this point, the party modified the comm system for two settings: party-wide, and party-wide-except-the-speedster.

There's some other stuff, but I need to vamoose.

[Endovior]

Just an incidental question here... how does applying flaws to attributes (especially ability scores) even work? Since the cost is 1 point per level, and the flaw reduces the cost by 1 point per level, what does the cost become?

[virgil]

It becomes 2 ranks per point, then three ranks per point, etc; assuming you keep slapping on the flaws to a power.

I once had a player make a character called Mani the Master of Useless Powers. He would take a bunch of powers and flaw them all to the point where he gets 3 or 4 ranks per point spent.

[Lago_AM3P]

There's some other stuff, but I need to vamoose.

Still waiting eagerly for stories.

[virgil]

I actually had the party get involved in a promotional event where their super-team would compete with another. Let me give a quick run-down of the party at the time...
* Computer techie with a staff that makes nearby electric sources explode in lightning
* Spastic speedster (Super-Speed 10 with a number of tricks)
* Ninja with a specialty in acupuncture and knowledge of material structure
* Extreme athlete with wings

Their opposing team was a brick with Speed 20, a rogue-type shadow-walker that could pull other people into their own shadows, a thinner-more-metallic Thing equivalent (later joins the party), and 'the Metallurgist" (combination Iron Man suit/techie-ness and Steel-fighting style).

The first event was a three-part relay race; the first leg was a race from coast-to-coast, the second a walk-through 4' high steel grass, the third a maze of sewer tunnels.

The computer techie had used invention to make a pair of speed boots for himself (Speed 5), but when he realized how much faster their opposition was for the first leg, he gave it to the spastic speedster instead. As a result, the party speedster crossed the nation in a move action while the opposition got there in a free action.

The second part, the techie charged up his force field to maximum while the 'Thing' just walked. They took about the same amount of time.

The third part was interesting, as the ninja had studied the tunnel's structure and was going to break through the walls with ease. But the opposing techie developed a better solution, which was a modified suit that gave him the bouncing ability of Speedball, and ended up going through the entire thing faster than the ninja (that took a bit of math to figure out the time there).

The next part of the competition was a house building race. There was some difficulty, as the parts for the thing were heavy and the party speedster is actually fairly weak, but the ninja was an architectural specialist. Things were going well for the party, then suddenly the opposing group's brick (looked like he was made of light, thus Speed 20) let the shadow-walker pull him into his shadow (he wears a suit to cover the glow); and out came Eclipse, a variable power lunatic. The techie had a boombox out and was playing it, so Eclipse laughed and began using TK to build the house faster than the party.

The party speedster, jealous and spiteful, ran over and created a sonic boom to deafen them, then back to the house-building. While Eclipse worked on the house, he started getting angry because there wasn't any music to calm him down and focus him on his summoned purpose. This is when the party had to start fighting Eclipse, who was going mad. They knocked him out, and he seperated back into the original two heroes.

The most amusing part was when the party techie said "How could you possibly use someone of great power that's soo hard to control...", then he looked at the speedster, "...never mind."

[Cynic]

1200003732[/unixtime]]I actually had the party get involved in a promotional event where their super-team would compete with another. Let me give a quick run-down of the party at the time...
* Computer techie with a staff that makes nearby electric sources explode in lightning
* Spastic speedster (Super-Speed 10 with a number of tricks)
* Ninja with a specialty in acupuncture and knowledge of material structure
* Extreme athlete with wings

Their opposing team was a brick with Speed 20, a rogue-type shadow-walker that could pull other people into their own shadows, a thinner-more-metallic Thing equivalent (later joins the party), and 'the Metallurgist" (combination Iron Man suit/techie-ness and Steel-fighting style).

The first event was a three-part relay race; the first leg was a race from coast-to-coast, the second a walk-through 4' high steel grass, the third a maze of sewer tunnels.

The computer techie had used invention to make a pair of speed boots for himself (Speed 5), but when he realized how much faster their opposition was for the first leg, he gave it to the spastic speedster instead. As a result, the party speedster crossed the nation in a move action while the opposition got there in a free action.

The second part, the techie charged up his force field to maximum while the 'Thing' just walked. They took about the same amount of time.

The third part was interesting, as the ninja had studied the tunnel's structure and was going to break through the walls with ease. But the opposing techie developed a better solution, which was a modified suit that gave him the bouncing ability of Speedball, and ended up going through the entire thing faster than the ninja (that took a bit of math to figure out the time there).

The next part of the competition was a house building race. There was some difficulty, as the parts for the thing were heavy and the party speedster is actually fairly weak, but the ninja was an architectural specialist. Things were going well for the party, then suddenly the opposing group's brick (looked like he was made of light, thus Speed 20) let the shadow-walker pull him into his shadow (he wears a suit to cover the glow); and out came Eclipse, a variable power lunatic. The techie had a boombox out and was playing it, so Eclipse laughed and began using TK to build the house faster than the party.

The party speedster, jealous and spiteful, ran over and created a sonic boom to deafen them, then back to the house-building. While Eclipse worked on the house, he started getting angry because there wasn't any music to calm him down and focus him on his summoned purpose. This is when the party had to start fighting Eclipse, who was going mad. They knocked him out, and he seperated back into the original two heroes.

The most amusing part was when the party techie said "How could you possibly use someone of great power that's soo hard to control...", then he looked at the speedster, "...never mind."

I miss Pinpoint (the ninja -- that would be me).
I'll try to dig through my laptop one of these days to pull up PInpoint and post it in this thread if anyone's interested.

[Lago_AM3P]

I'll try to dig through my laptop one of these days to pull up PInpoint and post it in this thread if anyone's interested.

Do it. Do it now.

[mean_liar]

Here's some abuse.

1) Use Magic. It's an Array with an Alternate Power of anything. So you cook up an Array with Flight, Super-senses (that cancel Obscures, Concealment, that kind of thing), ESP, Mind Reading, basically all the utility stuff a good self-sufficient hero needs. Also include three effect attack powers (Fatigue, Stun, Snare) keyed so that each one effects a different Save (one REF, one is FORT, one is WILL), and make these three attacks linked, Secondary effect and Autofire if you can squeeze it in. Use Check Required (knowledge - arcane lore) to reduce costs.

2) Weapon Summoning with the Flaw that to change out powers requires that you're holding your weapon. This then is an Array where 1 PP spent gets you 2 PPs of effect. Create an attack power that's Autofire and Secondary Effect (maybe a Full-round action if you need to), one that's Penetrating and Autofire, one that's Area effect (Burst Targeted so that you can hit Evaders and mow down minions), and a Triggered Deflect so that you're never surprised. Toss in a check required (arcane lore) so that you're getting 3pps for 1pp investment if you really want to.

Use All-out Attack and Power Attack to effectively lower your Defense to boost your Damage - you're going to be invisible (your Magic has Concealment of course) so that getting hit isn't such a big deal, and check out Ultimate Effort for your saves so that even if they luck out, its no big deal.

Make the attacks Accurate so you never have to buy Attack. Also put the Accurate on each individual power rather than the Array - its cheaper that way.

3) Some Immunities. Immunity to Trait Effects (4pts) and Ensnaring (5pts), maybe Immune to Sleep (1pt).

4) Super-senses so that you can't ever be surprised regardless of your Array setup. Danger Sense with Skill Mastery in Notice does a nice job here as well as 360deg sensing that sees through Concealment

5) A Move Object or Teleport effect that calls your weapon to you if you're ever disarmed. Make it dimensional and triggered. You can squeeze this into your Magic array if you want.

6) Metamorph for 2 pts so that you can turn into an ordinary person. Really, you're two people: one a skill monkey and fixit and the other a combat god. The Metamorph should be a Reaction action and Triggered so that even in a worst-case scenario you still transform.

7) Buy Defense, Toughness and Saves with Noticeable and Sustained duration. You're never getting stunned anyway, so go for it.

8) You're not getting stunned because you have Max Luck and Ultimate Effort for each save. So there.

9) In combat, use your badass Autofire Secondary Effect attacks (if you're really good your attack array has 4 attacks, one for each save so that you can choose the optimal attack style but really 1 going for Toughness is probably enough) with the Linked Fatigue/Stun/Snare from your Magic array to quickly take out anyone you want by targeting their weakest save with crippling effects. If you're using Secondary Effect on those Linked attacks its even worse, since you can make your opponent make 3 saves a round: one Toughness and two of Will, Fortitude and Reflex.

10) Give yourself more power for your Magic and Weapon Summoning arrays with a Power Reserve power that is Full Power (-1), requires a Full Action to assign (-3), Noticeable (-1), and requires a Skill Check (arcane lore) (-1/rk). So, a 1PP investment in this power nets you 12 PPs of output for your Arrays. Use them to make your Magic Array as Dynamic as possible.

11) Cram your defenses and non-Arrays into a Device that's indestructible. Same deal as for your weapons: have a method to instantly recover the device as a Triggered effect.

12) Take Drawbacks that are Minor Intensity but frequently appear. Take Power Loss (must meditate daily) on all your powers. It goes on.

13) If you can, put a Boost in your Array that Boosts your Array. Or Weapon Summoning. Your call.

14) Take the Ritualist feat and Quickness (Limited: only applies to Ritualist) with maybe Power Loss and whatever so that you can invent and execute rituals in something like x25 or better time.

There. Go win MnM.

[virgil]

Mean Liar, no offense, but this is drivel. This thread has gone into detail on how pointless it is for you to try the vast majority of your 'tricks'. DM veto will be your biggest killjoy here, since "it must be an actual flaw" very much applies.

#7 actually cancels out #2's use of All-Out/Power Attack while concealed (pointless to be invisible when you have a neon sign over your head). And it's not like villains can't use their own Super-Senses to see through your concealment like you try to do in #4.

I really hope you're not patting yourself on the back with your cleverness at exploiting the system, because I'm seeing nothing but amateur work here.

[Koumei]

I recall hearing about one person who took the"Summon Object" power, or whatever it was, and added the "Always on" flaw.

So the GM assumed they meant it to be an actual flaw, and instead of "anything you summon is there forever", the character continually created stuff whether they wanted to or not, always creating more and more matter.

At least it didn't take an action each turn, though.

The player thought that was awesome, firstly because he was outsmarted in his attempt to get free points, and secondly because it created new possibilities for storylines and the like.

[mean_liar]

No offense, but you've got some semen on your chin.

Of course GM fiat runs MnM - its the main gate for PC generation. The point was more that MnM is easily abusable and GM fiat is the only real check. It's called "abuse" for a reason. It's about as usable as most minmax builds - its not. But its still at the high end of the power curve.

As far as Noticeable automatically being negligible when a character can have Concealment, well... that sort of runs counter to being so easy being seen, isn't it? You're arguing from both sides of your mouth, and that's a minor abuse from the list. Things like Power Reserve abuse, Weapon Summoning abuse (check required is still a fine and appropriate flaw, even with GM fiat saying that the Disarm flaw is applicable), the Triggered Deflect, the Autofire/Secondary Effect Linked attacks... that's the real meat and potatoes. The Metamorph is just icing, just like saying 'Boost' would be.

I'm curious what you think constitutes non-amateur abuse, since I'd consider these the most abusable mechanical elements of the game.

[Captain_Bleach]

1200796515[/unixtime]]No offense, but you've got some semen on your chin.

ZOMG, what a clever, mature, and witty response!

But seriously folks, flaming each other never works out in the Gaming Den. Such is the way of the Internet.

[CatharzGodfoot]

1200799100[/unixtime]]

1200796515[/unixtime]]No offense, but you've got some semen on your chin.

ZOMG, what a clever, mature, and witty response!

But seriously folks, flaming each other never works out in the Gaming Den. Such is the way of the Internet.

Teapot and the kettle, Bleach

[virgil]

Most minmax builds are in a system that claims to be balanced on their own and don't require DMs to comb through in the search for legalistic loopholes. MnM is designed with the intent of being able to recreate the vast majority of character concepts/builds from comics, and is upfront on the requirement for flaws/drawbacks/concepts/builds to be examined and approved.

You're an amateur when your 'abuse' consists of "look, I can do obvious crap like Full Power on Protection, ain't I clever". This thread has already acknowledged that simple stuff, discussed real abuse, and moved on.

[Prak]

anyway of being able to take 20 on construction checks or getting quickness to work on "take 10" actions?

[virgil]

The quickness power inherently allows you to use Take 10 or even 20 on any action you take. Just determine how long it would take a 'normal' person to do it, then modify it with the quickness power.

It even says that if the action is reduced to less than 3 seconds, it can be done as a standard action or less; but the DM is free to limit how many 'free' actions you take (if you reduce the time enough).

What this means is that a Super Speed 10 superhero can, as a standard action, perform any noncombat task that would normally take two hours to complete.

[Prak]

Yes, but Quickness can only be applied to tasks you can already take 20 on, and you can only take 10 on construction checks... so I need a way to either use quickness on tasks I can take 10 on, or a way, outside of quickness, to take 20 on construction checks, maybe a way to take 20 on all craft checks, "period, end of statement"?

[virgil]

That's certainly an eccentricity in the rules, I must admit. By the RAW, there's nothing you can do; but in Oberoni land, if you have Skill Mastery (where there's not a possibility of failure if the DC's low enough) with the action you're performing, then it should be able to work with Quickness.

[Prak]

damn... Skill Mastery, in M&M, just allows you to take 10 with four chosen skills even when under stress...

However... posting on the Atomic Think Tank yeilded this:
http://www.atomicthinktank.com/viewtopic.php?t=27045