aWoD: Continued

[CatharzGodfoot]

Reflection: Robots: beings created to be tools, which have escaped control
Wild: Androids: beings created to be people, who are flawed

I like the characterization, if not the metaphysical mapping. Frankenstein was created to be people, and is flawed. Robots are usually create to be tools (just like the golem).

The created have an interesting position in WoD, as others have already stated. The world is inherently magical, so there's nothing any less inherently magical about Robomaria or Frankenstein than the Golem, Talos, or Galatea. They are all unique creations (no THX robocops yet). They all occupy a very similar conceptual space, and their limited numbers and similar abilities all point towards lumping them together. Unless, that is, someone can come up with a compelling reason for why there are at least 100 bad robots, 100 freed golems, and 100 body assemblages running around.

If you're already lumping Imhotep, Xu Fu, Brother Voodoo, and Maha Yogi together, there's no excuse for claiming that Anck-es-en-Amon (a priestess is Isis and a spellcaster) is anything but a witch. Even artifact users seem to be witches and vice-versa: the Mummy needed the Scroll of Thoth.

With that in mind, I think it's completely reasonable to have a 'transhuman' category that consists of Witches (Gloom), Prometheans (Limbo), and something else. The obvious choice is the scientists, but in the World of Darkness there's very little to separate historical seekers of occult knowledge (like Imhotep) from modern seekers (like the Invisible Man). I'd be tempted to create a sort of catch-all 'cursed' category for people who stay more or less human like the Wandering Jew and the Phantom of the Opera, but that's already covered by the other categories (for example the Phantom is Nosferatu). So I'm at a bit of a loss.

It's true that at this point the conceptual space would be waaay overbalanced towards vampires and werewolves, but Vampire and Werewolf are the classics.

[Grek]

Transhumans and Prometheans could easily be the same group. Let's take the foremost dude from each set for each power sorce and compare them

Robot from Metropolis vs. Dr. Jekyll/Mr. Hyde:
Both are relient on some semi-valuable but not difficult to acquire substance. In the case of the robot, this takes the form of literally getting plugged into a wall and charged up. In Mr. Hyde's case, he needs to shoot up with his chemicals. Both can easily reproduce the stuff that they need to survive on and could easily just pack up a 12 month supply of their drug of choice and move.

The Invisible Man vs. Frankenstein's Monster:
Both have a one time deal where something important happens and they transform into something supernatural. Neither is required to do anything special to recharge their powers, they just keep working no matter what. They also apparently have a pathological hatred for humanity, with the Invisible Man trying to terrorize the country and Frankenstein going on killing sprees every once in a while out of build up anger.

The Golem vs. Dorian Gray
The Golem has a word written on a peice of paper that it has to carry around and protect or else it dies. Dorian Gray has his painting which works exactly the same way, except that Dorian leaves the painting in his house. The important thing here is that they both get their powers from having their soul inside of an object, need the object to charge their powers and will die if that object is destroyed.

---

As a side note to the people saying the Golem is not a valid PC, I offer this Wikipedia quote:

In some incarnations of the legend, the Maharal's Golem had superhuman powers to aid it in its tasks. These include invisibility, a heated touch, and the ability to use the Maharal's walking stick to summon spirits from the dead. This last power was often crucial, as the Golem could summon dead witnesses to testify in Prague courts.

While summoning the dead to testify in court is not something that is going to happen, the Golem has lots of powers besides "Crush people with his massive fists".

[Crissa]

I see no reason not to have

I'd love to have a mantis lady, a spider woman, a bee queen, an ant mistress, a locust carrier, a butterfly lady, and a beetle person.

as character concepts that all had the same game mechanical title.

Honestly, we seem to accept that faerie and elves are one category, yet all look radically different, but are still 'faerie'. Why not the same with witches?

-Crissa

PS, Golem is really just a man-made magic user. Androids are just another flavor of golem. Fighting robots. Working robots. Servants of man. I guess that's the difference between the mummy (magician) and a mummy (reconstructed dead).

[Draco_Argentum]

Some thoughts on creating supernaturals from luminaries.

Vampires bite a luminary and get a real vampire from the deal.

Werewolves bite a luminary and get a werewolf from the deal.

Eating a leviathan's flesh makes a luminary into a leviathan.

I think the important thing to note is that one luminary turns into one supernatural. They're all even and no species can out breed the others. This is a good thing since the supernatural world won't be overrun by any one type of supernatural. I'd argue for extending this to the other types, no species gets a way to make more than one new supernatural from a single luminary.

[virgil]

Perchance Prometheans can have a similar creation scheme to the above. A Luminary not only can create but a single Promethean, but he loses his status as a Luminary from the effort. The ex-luminary can still create, but it won't have the same spark as the Promethean; science-fueled zombies, mindless robot drones, etc.

[CatharzGodfoot]

Perchance Prometheans can have a similar creation scheme to the above. A Luminary not only can create but a single Promethean, but he loses his status as a Luminary from the effort. The ex-luminary can still create, but it won't have the same spark as the Promethean; science-fueled zombies, mindless robot drones, etc.

So Frankenstein's second monster would have been a 'failure' even if he hadn't destroyed it? Remember that he was still obviously a luminary after he created the monster--he has a showdown with the monster on a glacier.

I suggest that a luminary construct can't be truly 'free' until it destroys its creator, and this is what drives them out of control. It builds like the hunger of a vampire, until eventually they become almost mindlessly filled with rage. They then either run away and go on killing sprees or turn against their creators and join the world of the supernaturals. A creator could still make more than one creation, but at that point their desires to be free would only be compounded. This puts an upper limit on the total 'run' a construct type can have before the the good doctor is killed (or has to destroy her creations).

[schpeelah]

Or the creation process simply uses up a Luminary. Frankenstein's monster won't rise until the creator finds a Luminary brain. The creation of a golem recuires a sacrifice of a special human. You can't build an android's program from ground up, you need a human ghost in the maschine, although you are of course going to alter it's memory and personality very heavily. I believe this creates a lot of storytelling opportunities.

[TavishArtair]

I would assume a Leviathan would usually be conceived with a Luminary, Creature from the Black Lagoon style.

[Prak]

as far as bug/snake mages go, why not just have "furry mages" and each character chooses an animal that their magic is based on in some way? That would allow us to have Thulsa Doom/Jafar, Imhotep, and wolf-skin wearing shamans without taking up any extra conceptual space.

[TavishArtair]

That doesn't work because Imhotep and Jafar are a big step removed from wolf-skin-wearing shamans. Conceptually they honestly just aren't the same. It has to do, especially, with how they use those motifs, and what other qualities are associated with them. There's a reason that you have shit like the barbarian's various "totems" which give various benefits based on whatever your "totem animal" is and why those are so varied. Because the idea of using an animal as your totem results in different things for each animal.

Likewise, there's a reason we aren't doing "generic animal-shifters" and having everyone pick one.

[Prak]

ok, that needs more explanation because the way I see it...

skin-wearing shaman- talks to spirits, puts on animal hides and turns into animals, and probably has some magic that reflects the qualities of whatever they turn into.

Jafar-well, if we go deeper into arabic myth and such than disney did... talks to elemental spirits, turns into a giant snake, and has a silver tongue that drips with verbal venom, ie, a quality associated with snakes.

Imhotep-raises sandstorms, directs them as if he's part of them, and vomits forth massive quantities of vermin while he goes off and does other stuff. There's some speaking to the dead and the gods in there to....

(I'm using Imhotep from the Brendan Fraiser movies, I don't know any other incarnation if others are using other incarnations, and I know nothing about Thulsa Doom)

Anyway, it seems to me these three archetypes exhibit pretty much the same stuff, with the notable exception of Imhotep because making him act like a scarab would be out of genre as far as the movies are concerned...

edit: ok, actually I suppose he did act somewhat buglike, in that he had his goals and pursued them, regardless of what he had to do to attain what he wanted, he didn't care about anyone around him, except for Anacksunamon, and bugs are pretty much the same, except they don't even care about they mates.. But other than that... yeah, Imhotep's the notable exception here.

Edit a-fucking-gain:
What about just having a desert tied group of mages? That way we can have psuedo-arabic mages that are surrounded by snakes, can turn their staves into cobras, and turn into gigantic snakes themselves, and sandstorm raising, bug vomiting mages who seek the power of the scorpion king (whether to have power over scorpions, or just to have MOAR POWAH)

I directed people to this thread on a thread at Shadownessence, we'll see if that was a good idea or not... but they were talking about making Crossover's possible, so they should at least like some of the ideas about politics. Also... the people that copy-pasted from the old thread cache... could we get some text formatting on those? Without 'em they're kinda Walls of Text that are hard to skim for the important info.

this thing just keeps growing... I'm going to have to start putting headings or something...

anyway, found this site. Someone else's work for WoD, some good (the weresquids give me a question about the deep ones of aWoD), some bad (wyrm tainted weredoves.... just... wyrm tainted weredoves... named the Cherubi... and they look like angels in crinos...) and the horrifying (werechihuahuas.... imagine five stereotypical mexicans, in crinos, driving a stolen car through the city... half the supernatural world would take them out...)

Anyway, about the Deep Ones. What are they looking like? Are they scaley fish people? Are they slick people-fish? Could one look like a mix of:

Cthulhus: A muscular humanoid, with a head resembling a squid, and having tentacles running down its chest. Gains a good amount of strength, and height. Gains scales, and long slithery fingers. Its eyes match the color of its face, and appear to be large and bulbous. Arms grow long and ape-like, legs grow wider, but do not increase in length. Feet become webbed, resembling a frogs. (Str: +5, Dex: -2, Sta: +3, Per: +2, Delerium +3 diff.)

Waxechtli: From waist down becomes like an Octopus, oily skin, and eight tentacles, rimmed with suckers. Upper body remains vaguely humanoidish. Skin becomes oily and thicker. Arms become long and rubbery, not having any joints. Hands become large, and small round mouths form on the palms, and webbing between large clawed fingers. Mouth on face grows large, and fang-rimmed. Eyes disappear, and all searching is done by sonar. Mouths on hands can squirt bilish black ink. Lower tentacles can be brought together to resemble merman tail. Although it is possible to move about on land in this form, it is not the easiest to work with. ( Str: +3, Dex (in water): +4, Dex (out of water): 1, Sta: +4, Per: 3)

? What's the deal with them appearance wise?

[CatharzGodfoot]

Or the creation process simply uses up a Luminary. Frankenstein's monster won't rise until the creator finds a Luminary brain. The creation of a golem recuires a sacrifice of a special human. You can't build an android's program from ground up, you need a human ghost in the maschine, although you are of course going to alter it's memory and personality very heavily. I believe this creates a lot of storytelling opportunities.

I think that's a great idea.

[RandomCasualty2]

Or the creation process simply uses up a Luminary. Frankenstein's monster won't rise until the creator finds a Luminary brain. The creation of a golem recuires a sacrifice of a special human. You can't build an android's program from ground up, you need a human ghost in the maschine, although you are of course going to alter it's memory and personality very heavily. I believe this creates a lot of storytelling opportunities.

That is a good idea. Gives the different factions things to fight over, and reason to play politics if they want to avoid total war.

[Judging__Eagle]

On Prometheans and the Luminaries needed to make them:

[Note: This is from the movies]

Frankenstien is made from the brain of a deranged criminal (instead of the genius). That criminal was a Luminary, as his body part is the only one mentioned in the creation of the monster. Perhaps either brain would have worked, but the criminal brain got used.

The 'bride' was created from the heart of a beautiful young girl who was killed by Frankenstein's henchman; after losing/damaging the 1st heart he was sent to find.

So...

To create a promethean, a Luminary might be killed, and a vital body part must be used to create the promethean.

Things like the: eyes, brain, heart, or liver, .... or a luminaries body part may be used, sometimes this is done without killing the donor. Such as removing a heart, and using a mechanical heart; or eyes, blinding the original luminary (but not killing them; maybe we're talking about stealing the heart of an athelete or the eyes of an artist; each would rob them of most of their Luminariness).

To create an Android, a Ghost must be placed in the machine, either an uploaded brain (and the original is destroyed while the lasers 'read' the original biological body during the 'reading' and 'uploading' process), or a ROM copy of a dead person's mind (A la Neuromancer's McCoy Pauley aka The Dixie Flatline a character who is a 'mind' (not a brain) in a metal box that can be plugged into the matrix, or a net-deck to communicate with others).

Note: AI's can be created and be Luminaries, this is a 'random' occurance with small chance; but will always happen if plot calls for it (obviously).
[Note: AI's may only be created if a Luminary works on them. So long as the AI exists, the original human no longer can be changed into an other creature, but still counts as a Luminaryin terms of their powers/abilities.]


To create a Golem, a Luminary must sacrifice their Luminariness. A person killed, a Rabbi instilling their power into a piece of paper, whatever.

does that work?

For Leviathans:

A Deep One needs to mate with a Luminary, and if they concieve a luminary child, then the offspring will be a Deep One (instead of a stillborn abomination); or have their flesh eaten by a Luminary.

An Worms that Walks must wriggle into the brain of Luminary, and thus, that which was meant to crawl, learns to walk.

[Note: I want Worms that Walk to not have control of the person's mind, just their body. The true horror of these creatures is that you are actually completely awake, and completely unable to do anything about what you are seeing and doing; also, the worm talks to you and tries to get you to seek out other people infected with Worms and tries to make human offspring; the worms make babies seperately, and then try to infect their human children with them. This of course is probably really disgusting morally, since it implies that not one, but two people are being raped, when only two humans are having sex. Worms that Walk are probably incrediblely evil.

or we make them completely kill the original mind and then control their body? people seem to have less problems with murder than with rape; I feel that both crimes are henious to the highest order and that the removal of freedom of choice is the real crime, so murder is just as bad since the victim will never be able to make a choice ever again]

Troglodytes occur when a Luminary partakes of a feast unknown to most. Then they become the equivalent of Richard Pickman, the dimension-hopping Lord of Ghouls. Normal people simply become mindless Ghouls. Become a Troglodyte is one of the few ways that almost any Luminary can willingly become a supernatural creature. However it means that you now hunger for the flesh of fellow humans, and eating other meat removes your powers until you have fully digested the non-human meat.

Witches: Selling your soul?

Transhumans: Giving up your human body (and sometimes your mind as well)

Vampires: bitten, drained, fed blood, allowed to die.

Lycanthropes: bitten by a frenzied lycanthrope, their saliva when frenzied and delivered via a bite and accompanied attack is what initiates the change.

[Draco_Argentum]

I would assume a Leviathan would usually be conceived with a Luminary, Creature from the Black Lagoon style.

I left sex out on purpose since its likely to get more argument. For Leviathans I'd say its always a single child and its always Alien style. For anyone else the options could be children are human or the luminary stops being a luminary. I'm not fussed about how those get assigned.

Witches it doesn't really matter how they transition as long as theres no way for a non-luminary to become a witch. Dreaming too deeply and discovering a hidden truth sound good for the Wilds and the Gloom.

[MartinHarper]

also, the worm talks to you and tries to get you to seek out other people infected with Worms

"tries to get you" - by convincing you - would it need to do that? Or by just moving you around? I guess the players play the Worms then.

An alternate scheme would have the Worm able to kill its host or cause it horrible pain, and using that as blackmail to get the host to help it reproduce/whatever.

[Judging__Eagle]

Well... if you're not actually 'willing', it's always worse.

Maybe you can control your eyes, and that's it. It's really hard to use a body you're controlling if the eyes are always saying "no".

Worms being painmongers also works, it's a bit cliche....nevermind. Pain worms in your brain it is. They also massage your pleasure centres, keeping their human enthralled.

How do the other 'creation' ideas for Prometheans, Leviathans work for people?

Does Troglodytes = 'every cannibal myth ever' work for most people?

With Troglodytes being the creatures that can enter the Dreamlands (referring to Lovecraft's Dreamland adventure in Kadash story; where Pickman lives as lord of the ghouls, and helps his friend, the protagonist find what he needs to know, and allows him to travel with him and his army of ghouls); while ghouls are simply people that eat the meat of people.

Despite what the interbutts may say, Deep Ones may not be salesmen:

http://www.partiallyclips.com/storage/2 ... one_lg.png

[violence in the media]

Does Troglodytes = 'every cannibal myth ever' work for most people?

With Troglodytes being the creatures that can enter the Dreamlands (referring to Lovecraft's Dreamland adventure in Kadash story; where Pickman lives as lord of the ghouls, and helps his friend, the protagonist find what he needs to know, and allows him to travel with him and his army of ghouls); while ghouls are simply people that eat the meat of people.

I like this one, as it can give potentially give us the Wendigo men from Ravenous.

[Judging__Eagle]

Yep, that's what I mentioned in my first post about "what are troglodytes". Ravenous was a great movie, and there also needs to be a way for anyone who is a Luminary to turn into a Supernatural, without having to do something very complex. Granted, it's probably difficult to be a cannibal, but it's not the same as being changed into a vampire or werewolf or becoming a witch or the invisible man.

[CatharzGodfoot]

I would assume a Leviathan would usually be conceived with a Luminary, Creature from the Black Lagoon style.

I left sex out on purpose since its likely to get more argument. For Leviathans I'd say its always a single child and its always Alien style. For anyone else the options could be children are human or the luminary stops being a luminary. I'm not fussed about how those get assigned.

The gill-man seems reason enough to use Draco's idea. It also gives leviathans yet another reason to kidnap and kill large numbers of people.

Ravenous was a great movie

[Judging__Eagle]

Oh come on, for a cannibal movie with an independant budget it was very well done. It never got campily humorous that you would want to laugh at the movie itself, and the acting was pretty decent.

It's not say.. How Green was my Valley, but with no other cannibal movies set in post civil-war USA, it does stand apart. Heck, there aren't even very many cannibal movies in the first place, so it's overall pretty decent.

[Crissa]

Stupid wide threads.

-Crissa

[Orion]

I like the characterization, if not the metaphysical mapping. Frankenstein was created to be people, and is flawed. Robots are usually create to be tools (just like the golem).

Actually my recollection is that Frankenstein was created as part of an attempt to conquer death -- his ultimate goal was presumably to be able to revive the dead and grant immortality. He couldn't have cared less about his monster, which was the problem.

That's very different from a pinocchio or galatea or who is created to be an individual whom the creator loves.

[Username17]

Actually my recollection is that Frankenstein was created as part of an attempt to conquer death -- his ultimate goal was presumably to be able to revive the dead and grant immortality. He couldn't have cared less about his monster, which was the problem.

Dr. Frankenstein created him to create life. Once he had done that, he decided that actually taking care of the life he had created was too much work and he didn't want to do it. The monster wanted to take over his life and he wanted to chase after a sexy lady and have parties with his respectable peers instead. So he drives the monster away so he can get back to his life. It's a meditation on the responsibilities and perils of parenthood and the horror of parental rejection. It really is a must read book. Not just for the genre, but in general.

---

Anyway, Troglodytes. The obvious herald from the original source material is the Mole People. But considering how many and frankly how similar all the underground cannibals are, they can grab stuff from any of them. Movies such as The Hills Have Eyes and Maciste and the Night Queen give a lot of weird templates. As do Lovecraftian books involving the Ghouls and Ghasts. And of course, Morlocks. Which is important, because it means that they can derogatorily refer to other people as "Eloi."

Basically I would suggest that at the minimum a Troglodyte be able to do all of the following:

• See in perfect darkness. (Auspex)
• Pop weapons out of their body (claws and/or fangs: Protean)
• Tunnel (Protean)

Which is interesting. Because it basically puts them at the level of being Protean specialists who do all the stuff that isn't changing into an animal (though of course it would be easy enough for them to do that.

Being as they are Gloom Centered, they could have more Auspex pretty easily, as well as get fleshed out with Obtenebration and Necromancy.

So here's a Daeva:

• Vigor (Basic Potence)
• Fire Walking (Basic Walk of Flame)
• Blood Bondage (Basic Path of Blood)
• Awe (Basic Presence)
• Patience of the Mountains (Basic Fortitude)
• Revive the Flesh (Basic Fortitude)
• Restoration (Intermediate Fortitude)
• Indomitably (Intermediate Fortitude)

That's kind of a lot. And we could seriously justify giving out even more preselects because already their blood magic is pretty severely cut down. So we can see that a good minimum set would be six basics and two intermediates. That being the case, let's consider a similar startup package for being a Troglodyte:

• Body Weaponry (Basic Protean)
• Heightened Senses (Basic Auspex)
• Aura Perception (Basic Auspex)
• Shadow Play (Basic Obtenebration)
• Hide From Notice (Basic Obfuscation)
• Vigor (Basic Potence)
• Earth Meld (Intermediate Protean)
• Spirit's Touch (Intermediate Auspex)

And then of course, each character is going to have some optionals. Some of which are going to be required to come from disciplines where you start with at least one selection and some of which don't.

Off hand, I would say that you get 3 selectable basics and a selectable intermediate, and at least two of those have to be expansions of your preselects. So you have just enough wiggle room to take a Basic and an Intermediate from an elective discipline.

-Username17

[CatharzGodfoot]

The Nosferatu (Wilds), Troglodytes (Gloom), and Wererats (Limbo) do have a nice sort of symmetry. I guess we've just got to make sure that they don't overlap too much. After all, Nosferatu probably look something like...

[*]Body Weaponry
[*]Heightened senses
[*]Vigor
[*]Blood Bondage
[*]Summon Swarm (bats)
[*]Hide from Notice

and possibly...
[*]Bat form
[*]Pest Control


Wererats also probably have heightened senses, rat form, rat hybrid form, pest control, and maybe hide from notice.