Of course, if the DM is dropping care packages on you, that shit really does not matter, does it Kaelik?
Right so... Your point.
No seriously. What can a Factotum do with Polymorph that doesn't suck? Cast it on the Rogue? What can a Factotum do with a 6hd creature at level 13 that he only gets one a day, costs 3 spell slots of 3 (3 of 4?) and can run fucking errands for you, and still only has a 50% success chance of even getting?
What the fuck is this care package shit? I never advocated infinite consumables. I pointed out that enough acid flasks for you entire life 1-20 (not that you'll ever actually play 1-20) costs less than a +6 to int Item which Factotums buy because they need int for non skill point things and rogues just do it for the skill points.
Kaelik wrote:
Actually, Factotums can't even apply metamagic feats, not even by Rods, to any of their "Spells" so in fact, no beating White Dragons for you (Likewise no maximizing or empowering Shivering Touch).
False.
You are right Dan, but using planar binding isn't a very effective spell to use with the Facto since you need to burn half or so of your spells to do it and it's only once per day.
Edit: Kaelik it would be 3 of 5 spells.
Last edited by Leress on Thu Aug 12, 2010 3:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
Kaelik wrote:
Actually, Factotums can't even apply metamagic feats, not even by Rods, to any of their "Spells" so in fact, no beating White Dragons for you (Likewise no maximizing or empowering Shivering Touch).
True.
Fixed that for you. Unless you have some kind of evidence you'd like to provide, like a citation.
If you wish to enhance a spell with a metamagic feat, you must apply the feat when you prepare the spell. In addition you must be capable of using a spell of the modified spell's level
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Just a heads up... Your post is pregnant... When you miss that many periods it's just a given.
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Danchild wrote:I have already provided an example of an effective use of spells. Back when Ubernoob was was nuthugging the flask ninja.
Planar Binding.
How many times can a rogue cast that a day?
Show me that planar binding is notable at the level you get it. Seriously, show me one thing that compares to a full attack from a rogue. I never said rogues were awesome, but that they can do one thing well (damage). Factotums can't do ANYTHING well and you're just proving it more. A six HD creature at level 13? Who gives a shit? Enter wish economy? You could do that from a scroll.
Leress wrote:It's on page 16 and 17 of Dungeonscape.
If you wish to enhance a spell with a metamagic feat, you must apply the feat when you prepare the spell. In addition you must be capable of using a spell of the modified spell's level
Right, but see, as I said earlier, I don't have my book on me. So all I have to go on is the part about emulating a spell and not actually casting it. Which apparently, even with that text, means they still can't use rods. And since they have no meta reducers, and are levels behind in spells anyway, any Factotum spending actual feats on meta reducers is retarded, so it works out practically the same.
Kaelik wrote:
Right, but see, as I said earlier, I don't have my book on me. So all I have to go on is the part about emulating a spell and not actually casting it. Which apparently, even with that text, means they still can't use rods. And since they have no meta reducers, and are levels behind in spells anyway, any Factotum spending actual feats on meta reducers is retarded, so it works out practically the same.
Just to reiterate. You were fucking wrong.
An extended service last for days per level. For a 12hd critter with SLA's that can be a decent investment.
As for all of the other shit, I think I have proven my point. You can quibble over the effectiveness of summoning an efreet or polymorphing into a war troll but the fact remains that the factotum is far more versatile than the examples listed. It brings more to the table than rogue.
So far the only thing going for rogue is Ubernoobs precious Flask Ninja and Kaeliks example of why it it good to multiclass out of rogue.
Kaelik wrote:
Right, but see, as I said earlier, I don't have my book on me. So all I have to go on is the part about emulating a spell and not actually casting it. Which apparently, even with that text, means they still can't use rods. And since they have no meta reducers, and are levels behind in spells anyway, any Factotum spending actual feats on meta reducers is retarded, so it works out practically the same.
Just to reiterate. You were fucking wrong.
An extended service last for days per level. For a 12hd critter with SLA's that can be a decent investment.
As for all of the other shit, I think I have proven my point. You can quibble over the effectiveness of summoning an efreet or polymorphing into a war troll but the fact remains that the factotum is far more versatile than the examples listed. It brings more to the table than rogue.
So far the only thing going for rogue is Ubernoobs precious Flask Ninja and Kaeliks example of why it it good to multiclass out of rogue.
No, you are fucking wrong. Nobody is disputing that factotum can do a lot of random stupid things. We totally agree there. What we are saying is that none of those things matter, and you have yet to raise a single point contradicting that statement.
Go big, or go home. Man up and show me what a factotum can DO. Yes, this means you're going to need to post an example build or whatever. Yes, we're probably going to laugh at how many books it takes to do it's trick.
Let's play the dumpster diving know your encounters ahead of time game just for a second. OK, you cast shivering touch (sorc/wiz 3). You can do this once per day at eighth level. It deals 3d6 dex damage. Now, you have a slightly higher than 50% chance of actually dealing 10 dex damage that you need.
So, at level 8, once per day, you have a 50/50 shot of dex damaging a dragon to inaction. If you fail, it fucking kills you because you just cast a range:touch spell.
So, you can rocket tag a dragon. Once per day. And you only have a 60% or so chance at succeeding anyways. Now, once you hit CR 10 dragons (two levels from now), you start running into loredrake (dragons of ebberon) dragons. These guys have at least CL 5. That means every last one of them has scintillating scales, so your trick won't work any more.
So, let's look at that.
For exactly two levels you can one shot dragons by using one of the most commonly banned tricks that wizards got three levels earlier (and could do better back then).
Two levels, one creature type, and you had to choose that spell as your top level effect.
One round a day you have a 50% chance of doing anything meaningful IF you dumpster dived and knew the encounters ahead of time.
Watch me fucking care.
Edit: Oh, and it doesn't work on white dragons.
I never said Factotums were good. I never said they could compete. I never said they could even win 50% or more of fights against CR appropriate opponents.
I was simply disproving the statement "Factotum spellcasting will never make a difference against an equal CR opponent".
And I did that. I'm right. You're wrong. You weren't wrong about anything important (it was trivially easy to disprove you), but you were still wrong.
If you didn't want people telling you off for making incredibly idiotic statements, I think the Pathfinder or Wizards forums will suit your tastes. I get the feeling the Den demands a bit more intelligence.
Saxony wrote:I never said Factotums were good. I never said they could compete. I never said they could even win 50% or more of fights against CR appropriate opponents.
I was simply disproving the statement "Factotum spellcasting will never make a difference against an equal CR opponent".
And I did that. I'm right. You're wrong. You weren't wrong about anything important (it was trivially easy to disprove you), but you were still wrong.
If you didn't want people telling you off for making incredibly idiotic statements, I think the Pathfinder or Wizards forums will suit your tastes. I get the feeling the Den demands a bit more intelligence.
You also fail at hyperbole.
Oh my god, you disproved an obvious hyperbole. Good job. My point stands.
Edit: To be clear, you are a bad person because you advocate me making misleading statements such as "Factotum spellcasting is sometimes useful" instead of telling people to play a class that won't make them cry because they suck such as rogue.
Last edited by ubernoob on Thu Aug 12, 2010 5:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
Saxony wrote:I never said Factotums were good. I never said they could compete. I never said they could even win 50% or more of fights against CR appropriate opponents.
I was simply disproving the statement "Factotum spellcasting will never make a difference against an equal CR opponent".
And I did that. I'm right. You're wrong. You weren't wrong about anything important (it was trivially easy to disprove you), but you were still wrong.
If you didn't want people telling you off for making incredibly idiotic statements, I think the Pathfinder or Wizards forums will suit your tastes. I get the feeling the Den demands a bit more intelligence.
You also fail at hyperbole.
Oh my god, you disproved an obvious hyperbole. Good job. My point stands.
Protip: Hyperboles are not serious. You were not making a hyperbole. You were being a retard. You are now covering up being a retard about Factotums in the heat of the moment with a magic word that someone else provided in your defense.
Protip: Using a big word incorrectly makes you look like an idiot. Covering up a mistake and looking like an angry idiot at the same time makes you look insecure. Admitting you were an idiot or just shutting up is much easier in my experience.
Your point that Factotums suck certainly can stand. I do not deny it.
ubernoob wrote:Edit: To be clear, you are a bad person because you advocate me making misleading statements such as "Factotum spellcasting is sometimes useful" instead of telling people to play a class that won't make them cry because they suck such as rogue.
No.
Saxony wrote:The Factotum may suck terribly. The Rogue may outperform it handily. JaronK may be an idiot. But not knowing how a spell could "ever make a difference" in an equal CR fight...
Tell me where I have said that Factotums are good. Show me.
Edit: And the hits keep coming!
Saxony wrote:I never said Factotums were good. I never said they could compete. I never said they could even win 50% or more of fights against CR appropriate opponents.
I was simply disproving the statement "Factotum spellcasting will never make a difference against an equal CR opponent".
Last edited by Saxony on Thu Aug 12, 2010 5:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
ubernoob wrote:Edit: To be clear, you are a bad person because you advocate me making misleading statements such as "Factotum spellcasting is sometimes useful" instead of telling people to play a class that won't make them cry because they suck such as rogue.
No.
Saxony wrote:The Factotum may suck terribly. The Rogue may outperform it handily. JaronK may be an idiot. But not knowing how a spell could "ever make a difference" in an equal CR fight...
Tell me where I have said that Factotums are good. Show me.
Dude, you jumped on my hyperbole like it was a cock on sunday. If you cared about people knowing what the facts are more than your own ego, you would have let the hyperbole stand because it pushes people away from a trap. You are a bad person. Get over it.
ubernoob wrote:Edit: To be clear, you are a bad person because you advocate me making misleading statements such as "Factotum spellcasting is sometimes useful" instead of telling people to play a class that won't make them cry because they suck such as rogue.
No.
Saxony wrote:The Factotum may suck terribly. The Rogue may outperform it handily. JaronK may be an idiot. But not knowing how a spell could "ever make a difference" in an equal CR fight...
Tell me where I have said that Factotums are good. Show me.
Dude, you jumped on my hyperbole like it was a cock on sunday. If you cared about people knowing what the facts are more than your own ego, you would have let the hyperbole stand because it pushes people away from a trap. You are a bad person. Get over it.
You admit your failed hyperbole was shitty. I think I'm done here.
I believe my posts did not push people towards a shitty class. I clearly stated I was only disproving your silly statement and that regardless of how silly your statement was, disproving it would not make Factotums good. I even implied Factotums suck.
And really? Me shredding your "obvious hyperbole" leading people to traps? Really? If the hyperbole was so obvious, they would have never been convinced in the first place. Your logic is riddled with many holes.
You are wrong about me pushing people into traps. Nice try, though.
Ubernoob, you're being retarded. Saxony, you need to put up or shut up. Polymorph and Planar Binding are powerful, yes, but they are also confusing as hell, and you *are* getting them much later than normal, so throwing out one or two applications might be a good idea. I hear War Trolls mentioned. I know by reputation that war trolls are amazing, but if JUST polymorphing into a war troll enough to make a factotum melee-viable? better than a rogue even? I always assumed that the point was to polymorph into a war-troll, self-buff, and possibly throw SoDs while being invulnerable. RO shred things. Factotum gets the war troll but not the buffs or the SoD.
That said, Ubernoob, your idea that Factotum spellcasting is even close to negligible is totally painful. Let's talk about Glitterdust for a minute. Sure, a Factotum can't cast it until level 5, but there totally CR 5 giants and shit that will fail their save against it. And then you win. Setting aside the possibility that your CR 5 opposition is actually a gang of CR 3 stuff.
Saves are so stupidly low that just packing an SoD or two would make a noticeable difference in the Factotum's SGT.
Orion wrote:Ubernoob, you're being retarded. Saxony, you need to put up or shut up. Polymorph and Planar Binding are powerful, yes, but they are also confusing as hell, and you *are* getting them much later than normal, so throwing out one or two applications might be a good idea. I hear War Trolls mentioned. I know by reputation that war trolls are amazing, but if JUST polymorphing into a war troll enough to make a factotum melee-viable? better than a rogue even? I always assumed that the point was to polymorph into a war-troll, self-buff, and possibly throw SoDs while being invulnerable. RO shred things. Factotum gets the war troll but not the buffs or the SoD.
That said, Ubernoob, your idea that Factotum spellcasting is even close to negligible is totally painful. Let's talk about Glitterdust for a minute. Sure, a Factotum can't cast it until level 5, but there totally CR 5 giants and shit that will fail their save against it. And then you win. Setting aside the possibility that your CR 5 opposition is actually a gang of CR 3 stuff.
Saves are so stupidly low that just packing an SoD or two would make a noticeable difference in the Factotum's SGT.
Bards have better spellcasting for the first 14 levels of the game. Relying on factotum 'spellcasting' is worse than relying on bard spellcasting. So yes, it is laughable. Until level 9 a factotum can't even cast one spell per encounter in a four encounter day. The first eight levels you can't guarantee even a single spell per encounter. It takes until level *20* to cast two spells per encounter in a four encounter day.
Danchild wrote:Kaeliks example of why it it good to multiclass out of rogue.
Can you stop saying retarded things that make no sense Please?
Where the fuck did I say anything at all at any point that suggests it's good to multiclass out of Rogue?
I mean, it is, if you are actually going to go to 20, Rogue 19/X 1 is better, but no one goes to 20 anyway, so having Rogue be the best for 19 levels is pretty impressive.
Kaelik wrote:
+11d6+17 damage on eight attacks, and 2 Str damage on each attack, even to people immune to SA, vs... Access to the Wizards spell list up to level 6.
You know who else has level 6 Wizard spell access? The fucking Bard.
You obtuse fuck. Not only are you a fucking liar, but you tried to shift the goal posts in this discussion by referencing bard and multiclassing.
This thread is about Factotum vs. Rogue. Not Factotum vs Wizard, or Cleric, or Druid.
Ubernoob wrote:No, you are fucking wrong. Nobody is disputing that factotum can do a lot of random stupid things. We totally agree there. What we are saying is that none of those things matter, and you have yet to raise a single point contradicting that statement.
Go big, or go home. Man up and show me what a factotum can DO. Yes, this means you're going to need to post an example build or whatever. Yes, we're probably going to laugh at how many books it takes to do it's trick.
Fucking no. I am not going to spell it out for you in any greater detail. You either get it or you do not. Even discussing this with you is a colossal waste of time. The fact you would bring some hissy fit about the Tier system from BG over here indicates you are not interested in an honest analysis. I suggest you resolve your problems with Jaronk over there rather than using this board to justify your asshattery.
Kaelik wrote:
+11d6+17 damage on eight attacks, and 2 Str damage on each attack, even to people immune to SA, vs... Access to the Wizards spell list up to level 6.
You know who else has level 6 Wizard spell access? The fucking Bard.
You obtuse fuck. Not only are you a fucking liar, but you tried to shift the goal posts in this discussion by referencing bard and multiclassing.
This thread is about Factotum vs. Rogue. Not Factotum vs Wizard, or Cleric, or Druid.
WHAT FUCKING MULTICLASSING? Seriously, stop just spewing retarded lies for half a goddam second and tell me what goddam multiclassing?
Rogues get +11d6+17 damage on each of their eight attacks and do 2 Str damage as well, even to people immune to SA. They do that without multiclassing, and they do it at level 17.
Kaelik wrote:
Rogues get +11d6+17 damage on each of their eight attacks and do 2 Str damage as well, even to people immune to SA. They do that without multiclassing, and they do it at level 17.
What goddam multiclassing?
Where's the 2 Str damage coming from?
And is it STR damage, or a STR penalty? My rogue really wants to know.
Kaelik wrote:
Rogues get +11d6+17 damage on each of their eight attacks and do 2 Str damage as well, even to people immune to SA. They do that without multiclassing, and they do it at level 17.
What goddam multiclassing?
Where's the 2 Str damage coming from?
And is it STR damage, or a STR penalty? My rogue really wants to know.
You tell me.
What I want to know is where all these attacks per round are coming from. I assume it's after a divine power scroll for a base attack bonus of 16+, TWF, ITWF, GTWF, and boots of speed.
Last edited by CatharzGodfoot on Thu Aug 12, 2010 12:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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