Stay Classy Paizo.

[Zinegata]

Here is the thing, the designers of Pathfinder aren't listening. They really haven't been listening unless it some blue moon case where even they see their botch in the math.

No, here's the real issue of it all:

Why should they listen to you?

They have a product. It sells. To people who buy it who don't particularly care about mechanical soundness.

As far as they're concerned, you're not their customer. At all. So why bother listening to you?

[Crissa]

You know, having a product that sells is not the same as having a good product. Or good sales.

-Crissa

[Zinegata]

You know, having a product that sells is not the same as having a good product. Or good sales.

-Crissa

Crissa, nobody ever said it was a good product. Enough with the troll tactics. You always love claiming your opponent said something they never did so that the idiots on this board will flame your opponent for you.

So again, stop with the outright lies. It's getting really old.

------

I only pointed out why Paizo is totally free to ignore your whining. And they would be right to do so.

They're not trying to sell it to you. They're trying to sell it to people like your friends, who don't want Tome but want whatever it is that makes Pathfinder sell.

And in that case, like I said, "Too bad. Compromise or find new friends".

Because your friends will just end up looking for some other game like Pathfinder anyway.

You are going against human nature. Not the stubborness of a designer. Blaming Pathfinder is just a scapegoat for the fact that you're not able to convince your friends to play YOUR game instead.

[Kaelik]

So, again, are you going to claim that Tome is hugely popular and in widespread use, even in the Den?

Yes, Tomes are hugely popular and see widespread use on the Den. Outside the Den, people have their own bullshit, Paizo is Pathfinder, gitp is 3.5 level 1-5, BG is 3.5 level 6-10, ect.

But in the Den, Myself, Koumei, Mask, For Valor, and Avatarded all run Tome games online. Compared to... No one running any online games of anything else around here.

And that's not counting in person, where I know that I DM Tome, Uber DMs Tome, Koumei DMs Tome, and JE DMs Tome. And that's not counting Frank and K, who don't talk that much about their in person games, but I have mostly gathered that they don't even play online, so you wouldn't know what they are doing.

Fuck you and your 1,075 members bullshit. At least half those accounts are people signing up to troll us about how 4e/Pathfinder/Loren Coleman is the greatest thing since sliced bread. The correct comparison is people who actually do shit here, vs people who actually do shit here and play Tome games. And that's a ratio that's pretty nearly one as far as I can tell.

The last time I played in a game that didn't allow at the very least Tome classes was a year ago, and I've had three games running at least for that entire time.

We get it, you hate the Den, you hate the Tomes, you hate, you hate, you hate. Great. Now go find somewhere you actually like things, and be a dick over there and drive people who aren't pure enough out like the shit eating bitches they are. But at least have the decency to find someplace you actually like before you start trying to drive people you hate away from it.

[Koumei]

Yes, Tomes are hugely popular and see widespread use on the Den. Outside the Den, people have their own bullshit, Paizo is Pathfinder, gitp is 3.5 level 1-5, BG is 3.5 level 6-10, ect.

I'd argue it has reasonable success outside the Den. Sure, as it isn't something you pay money for, complete with advertising campaigns, it's not as big as Pathfailure, regular 3E or even 4E. Actually, in some places it seems to have as many games as 4E. As for "I know this isn't a Tome game, but can I play a Dungeonomicon Monk?", it usually gets a green flag - depending on the class. Monk is practically always allowed, Fighter not-so-much. And the 10/15 level classes seriously confuse people.

And that's not counting Frank and K, who don't talk that much about their in person games, but I have mostly gathered that they don't even play online, so you wouldn't know what they are doing.

I've gathered that Frank plays Shadowrun and has played Vampire with every girl he's had sex with (woah, that means Sailor Moon plays Vampire!) But if neither Frank nor K played Tome, I would be surprised and amused.

the greatest thing since sliced bread.

Since when was sliced bread even that amazing?

[Zinegata]

But in the Den, Myself, Koumei, Mask, For Valor, and Avatarded all run Tome games online. Compared to... No one running any online games of anything else around here.

Your opening salvo is already full of bullshit.

First of all, I am running an online game. So is Meikle. We don't post the details here, but we do in fact both run online games, and they're both not Tome games.

So "No one running online games of anything else" is completely false. Heck, Koumei has been trying to get people to run Pretty Soldier Adeptas Sororitas, not just Tome.

Also, as far as I can tell only Mask is currently running an online game. The rest I haven't seen them updating anything in a while.

But even in total, you seriously have mentioned just five guys.

And that's not counting in person, where I know that I DM Tome, Uber DMs Tome, Koumei DMs Tome, and JE DMs Tome. And that's not counting Frank and K, who don't talk that much about their in person games, but I have mostly gathered that they don't even play online, so you wouldn't know what they are doing.

Okay, so from the offline people, you have uber, JE, Frank, and K as the unique additions.

So you only know like nine seperate people who are running Tome. That's even LESS than my second estimate of ten.

Wow.

Fuck you and your 1,075 members bullshit. At least half those accounts are people signing up to troll us about how 4e/Pathfinder/Loren Coleman is the greatest thing since sliced bread. The correct comparison is people who actually do shit here, vs people who actually do shit here and play Tome games. And that's a ratio that's pretty nearly one as far as I can tell.

Here's the thing though: Most people don't actually try to design their games. They don't really delve too much into the mechanics. That's why even shit like 4E outsells Pathfinder.

So when you whine that "Only the people who contribute count!", that's a tacit admission that it's only popular to a select few. So again - why the fuck would you want to employ a very niche rule set to a mass market product?

We get it, you hate the Den, you hate the Tomes, you hate, you hate, you hate. Great. Now go find somewhere you actually like things, and be a dick over there and drive people who aren't pure enough out like the shit eating bitches they are. But at least have the decency to find someplace you actually like before you start trying to drive people you hate away from it.

Actually, I have a place I like. It's called SD.net.

I don't hate the Den. However, I do enjoy popping the bubbles of self-important people here who think they are so the shit of the RPG industry.

Blame Pathfinder all you want. But it's not the reason why people aren't playing Tome.

[Zinegata]

I'd argue it has reasonable success outside the Den. Sure, as it isn't something you pay money for, complete with advertising campaigns, it's not as big as Pathfailure, regular 3E or even 4E. Actually, in some places it seems to have as many games as 4E. As for "I know this isn't a Tome game, but can I play a Dungeonomicon Monk?", it usually gets a green flag - depending on the class. Monk is practically always allowed, Fighter not-so-much. And the 10/15 level classes seriously confuse people.

If you're gonna count "use some Tome rules", then yeah, I know a bit more people who play such a game. I've played in one with K-feats only. Meikle's also employs some Tome rules.

Any idea how many people are actually playing the Tome games though, as opposed to "Just as many games as 4E"?

[Korwin]

I use some of the Tomes in the PnP. (currently as player)

And I know its at least known on an german forum (www.dnd-gate.de).
(By someone other than me)

[virgil]

I recently finished running an aWoD and a Tome game, and am starting up an IH game with a few Tome rules available as options. The other group I play with (the PF fanboy ones) would seriously have stuck with 3.5 had Pathfinder not come out; and I know them enough that had Pathfinder been an actual improvement, their butt-love for Paizo would be the same. So in my case, Pathfinder actively created a less enjoyable game for me.

[Zinegata]

Anyone else notice a common thread here?

Even people who use "Tome" don't use all of it.

So, again, which is more likely:

1) Pathfinder is taking away people who would be forced to play Tome if there was no alternative.

OR

2) People are hard-wired to prefer certain things. If you take Pathfinder away from them, they'll just look for something ELSE that fits their preferences.

Because quite honestly, even within Tome's limited base people are already cherry-picking what they want (and I'm not even sure if Kaelik is referring to pure Tome games with his 9 examples, or simply "Games with Tome rules allowed").

[Blasted]

I don't think anyone really cares about a tome vs. pathfinder popularity contest that you seem obsessed with.
FWIW I don't know anyone who plays with the entire set of rules of any system.

the point of the thread wasn't "Why paizo/pathfinder should be using tome".
And your options 1 and 2 aren't mutually exclusive.

[Korwin]

Anyone else notice a common thread here?

Even people who use "Tome" don't use all of it.

So what? I dont use all my 3.5 books, only parts.

That said, I dont use all the Tome material, because not all of it is finished....

[Zinegata]

I don't think anyone really cares about a tome vs. pathfinder popularity contest that you seem obsessed with.
FWIW I don't know anyone who plays with the entire set of rules of any system.

the point of the thread wasn't "Why paizo/pathfinder should be using tome".
And your options 1 and 2 aren't mutually exclusive.

Really? Then why are you all obsessing over it when it was a reply to Crissa and DragonChild's complaint that their friends what to play Pathfinder/4.0/Whatever instead of Tome?

Again, the point is real simple: People are hard-wired to prefer certain things. If they like Pathfinder, it's because there's something in Pathfinder that Tome doesn't have. Like shiny pictures and stuff. And you can't make these people like something else.

So, your choices are to compromise with your friends, or find new friends.

------------

Also, the whole "Tome popularity" tangent only came about because you made the outlandish claim that Pathfinder would become a much bigger success if only it copied Tome rules.

So please, don't blame me for something that you started. Tome already exists. And so far we're talking about a system that is used (only in bits and pieces) by a handful of people.

Inserting it into a mass-market RPG won't guarantee it will make said mass-market RPG into a bigger success.

[Zinegata]

So what? I dont use all my 3.5 books, only parts.

Read the other half of the post.

Keeping in mind that the original discussion revolved around how Pathfinder was "taking away" people who could be playing Tome.

[Blasted]

So please, don't blame me for something that you started. Tome already exists. And so far we're talking about a system that is used (only in bits and pieces) by a handful of people.

Inserting it into a mass-market RPG won't guarantee it will make said mass-market RPG into a bigger success.

Actually, I only used it as an example, after you mentioned it:

And I only know 1 or 2 of them is even using Tome. If Tome is so superior, why do so few people even in the Den use it?

To which my reply was:

You're ignoring the best case, where Paizo changes Pathfinder into Tome (or whatever) and everyone loves it.

You started it and I used it as an example, as you can see in my quote, I am happy for you to replace my use of "Tome" with "whatever".

[Zinegata]

Blasted->

Okay, fair enough, you were responding to a rhetorical question I was posting to Crissa. (The answer to which was "Because people like different things")

My mistake then.

[Quantumboost]

Edit: Forget it, apparently the arguments on the entire page were all a result of some crazy miscommunicated rhetorical clusterfuck.

[Zinegata]

Oops too.

[ubernoob]

For the record, I no longer run a tome game. This past sunday I moved from my hometown (where the tome game with my friends there was) to my campus. I have yet to get a group together, but I'm planning on getting this hot nerdy chick to help me get a group together for a tome game and also sleeping with her. Emphasis on the second part more than the first. She's pretty damn hot for a roleplayer.

[Count Arioch the 28th]

Just be careful. Female Nerds tend to be head cases. Then again, is there anyone here on this forum who isn't a head case? fbmf is the closest thing to a regular person here I think.

(Had a bad experience with a female nerd. She started accusing me of sexually harassing her AT WORK after I told her that I wouldn't sleep with her. She was cute, but 20 and REALLY naive for her age, I didn't feel right).

And for the record, I run a tome game. Specifically, I run a campaign setting that so far is working pretty well. I use a couple tome classes (fighter and monk), as well as 7 more tome-inspired classes as the base classes.

So far so good, although one player is still in the 1E mindset and does tons of useless actions that take forever to resolve to get minor +1's here and there in very limited situations. He hasn't taken a hint that I never give them out. However, hyper-attention to detail is one of his mental quirks and I doubt that I can affect his behavior in any large way.

[ubernoob]

Just be careful. Female Nerds tend to be head cases.

You say that like everyone that regularly posts here is NOT a headcase. I'm not allowed to judge on that.

[Zinegata]

Could you link us the hot chick's picture?

[Saxony]

Could you link us the hot chick's picture?

Yes, he has a picture of a crazy who thought he was sexually harassing her.

And you want to ogle the crazy hot person? You might get a thing for crazy people if craziness is visible and arouses you. You might then attempt to turn crazy to become more attractive to crazy people. That wouldn't be good.

You so silly.

[Ganbare Gincun]

I have yet to get a group together, but I'm planning on getting this hot nerdy chick to help me get a group together for a tome game and also sleeping with her. Emphasis on the second part more than the first. She's pretty damn hot for a roleplayer.

A hot nerdy chick? Get ready for the crazy train!

But seriously, I hope you like attention whoring, daddy issues, and being cheated on. Because you're almost certainly bellying up to an all-you-can-eat buffet filled with that shit.

[Zinegata]

Firstly, I was talking to ubernoob, not Count.

Secondly, we're all headcases here. So yes, even crazy is hot.

Thirdly, it was a joke .