"Bioware Neglected Their Main Demographic:The Straight Male"

[Gnosticism Is A Hoot]

People like easy answers. Evangelicals will tell you that, if we all followed their morality, there would be no more social or economic problems. Reaganites will tell you that everything you don't like is the fault of Big Government. Some anti-racists and feminist and Marxists will interpret all social problems through their own particular area of study, which is why intersectionality is so important.

And some people read just enough about genetics to get really really interested, but not enough to gain a real understanding. I do not doubt that ultimately, all human behaviour is rooted in our shared evolutionary heritage. That's almost tautologically true. But you *cannot* go easily from 'some genes have function X' to 'therefore, behaviour Y is the authentic and correct way for humans to behave'. Aside from anything else, that sort of reasoning runs smack into the is-ought fallacy. It also ignores the obvious and unavoidable influence that environmental factors and memetics have on our behaviour - influence that has to be *studied*, and can't just be worked out from first principles based on our understanding of genetics.

[tzor]

Now, let's assume that you guys are correct and men do not value virginity in women. That's why things like hymen restoration surgery and hideous stoning to death of non virginal women doesn't happen. All those women in the middle east who face hideous punishment for being "whores" who lost their hymens before marriage are just whining about nothing, because men don't value virginity at all! Men far prefer women who've had many more sexual partners, which is why former prostitutes are the most desirable women in the world, etc etc.

First and foremost, it is always important not to confuse issues, and I believe you have definitely confused a number of issues. First of all, it is important to remember that the primary purpose of sex is procreation; in some cultures it breaks down even more; the primary purpose is to have male offspring. This is especially true in cultures that didn't believe in a hereafter (for example in the first five books of the Bible) where immortality was considered having a long line of sons that grew exponentially over time. Traditionally, it was always a simple manner to determine who was the mother - not so with the father. This is the fundamental driving force behind virginity in most anchient cultures.

This, of course, has nothing whatever do to wit modern notions. If I were to hazzard a guess I would say the preference for virginity is a sign of vulnerability. We all think we are the greatest in bed; the last thing we want is someone who can compare us to someone better and tell us so. (Even though that other person was probably generally crappy and we were even crappier.)

[Neeeek]

This, of course, has nothing whatever do to wit modern notions. If I were to hazzard a guess I would say the preference for virginity is a sign of vulnerability. We all think we are the greatest in bed; the last thing we want is someone who can compare us to someone better and tell us so. (Even though that other person was probably generally crappy and we were even crappier.)

This is actually similar to why I don't like having sex with virgins. They usually suck at it. And it's not just inexperience, virgins tend to be kinda scared, and it requires a lot of work to avoid hurting them. Frankly, any guy who prefers virgins probably is either an asshat who doesn't care about their sexual partners well-being or someone who hasn't actually had much experience having sex with virgins.

[Orion]

Of course what's attractive /= what actually makes for a good partner.

[Prak]

Virginity has been fetishised since the middle ages, because of the church's Madonna/Whore complex. That's basically all there is to it, virginity seen as a sign of purity, and thus a vague form of divinity and righteousness.

[Blasted]

Virginity has been fetishised since the middle ages, because of the church's Madonna/Whore complex. That's basically all there is to it, virginity seen as a sign of purity, and thus a vague form of divinity and righteousness.

Long, long before that people were judging a women's worth by whether or not she is a virgin. Once married, she was judged by the sex and number of kids.
While the Catholic church does have some awfully interesting doctrines related to Mary, valuing virginity in women certainly didn't start in the middle ages. The Code of Hammurabi is reasonably ancient.

[Prak]

Virginity has been fetishised since the middle ages, because of the church's Madonna/Whore complex. That's basically all there is to it, virginity seen as a sign of purity, and thus a vague form of divinity and righteousness.

Long, long before that people were judging a women's worth by whether or not she is a virgin. Once married, she was judged by the sex and number of kids.
While the Catholic church does have some awfully interesting doctrines related to Mary, valuing virginity in women certainly didn't start in the middle ages. The Code of Hammurabi is reasonably ancient.

Ok, so I didn't exactly do a ton of research, good to know though, thanks. I would think prior to the abrahamic religions women would be judged by fertility, or supposed markers there of.

[Blasted]

Ok, so I didn't exactly do a ton of research, good to know though, thanks. I would think prior to the abrahamic religions women would be judged by fertility, or supposed markers there of.

The law of Moses (or Torah or whateveryouwanttocallit) I think places more value on fertility than Hammurabi, certainly on virginity. The various similarities and differences between the two are well documented and constantly debated, but I think that it's fair to say that post-Moses, women are still judged by fertility.
Christianity changes it a little, in that it had (for the time) a higher value placed on both women and slaves, compared to either Mosaic law or Roman law and is considered one of the reasons that it gained early popularity. Especially amongst women and slaves. My study peters out after around 400AD, so I can't really comment on Catholicism itself.

I'd say fetishising virginity is probably related to the chances of having more children - a vital source of economic prosperity in agricultural societies. Or maybe it's just down to a male power thing.

[Prak]

actually, that thing about having more children makes me wonder if it's perhaps an evolutionary artifact. Some species, when a new male becomes dominant, will kill the infants of the group, ensuring his ability to sire more. It may be that humans somewhat fetishise virginity as a form of that where instead of killing kids, the male mind, at a basic state, wants a virgin so there's no competition for his genes, and it just ballooned from there because people noticed this tendency and typically hate to think of anything about themselves being a biological imperative.

[sabs]

It's possible. Also remember that when we went from a hunter/gatherer to an agricultural society we had a massive shift from Matriarchal to Patriarchal society. Many of the things that changed end up being backlashes against the Old Matriarchal society.

The Lilith myth is one of those.
The re-working of genesis to Adam and Eve.

The Hebrew tribes went from a Polytheistic Matriarchal society, to a Monotheistic Patriarchal one. Hunter/Gatherer societies tend to be more communistic, more everyone pitches in together, we care more about HAVING children, then who fathered them. Polyamory is quite common in hunter/Gatherer socities.

When you switch to Agriculture, then it becomes important that you have many sons to work YOUR land. Specialization happens, trade becomes more prominent, and having sons to teach farming, smithing, carpentry. Daughters to teach weaving, cooking, household tasks to becomes an important survival trait.

Many people will say that Family is just circumstance, and that there is no real bond. But biologically, you ARE closer to people you share genetics with. Your mileage may vary, and how fucked up your family is will alter that to some extent. But there is a reason that extended family clans are the basis of pretty much every early agricultural grouping.

[Orion]

While there's substantial evidence that the Hebrews were originally Polytheistic (like: the Torah), as far as I know there is no evidence whatsoever that they were ever matriarchal. It's just one of those things some pagans and feminists like to believe.

[Orion]

it is important to remember that the primary purpose of sex is procreation

O RLY?

[Gnosticism Is A Hoot]

While there's substantial evidence that the Hebrews were originally Polytheistic (like: the Torah), as far as I know there is no evidence whatsoever that they were ever matriarchal. It's just one of those things some pagans and feminists like to believe.

This. As far as I know, 'ancient matriarchy' is in the same category as 'the Burning Times' - a semi-religious ideological myth.

[Orion]

Men far prefer women who've had many more sexual partners, which is why former prostitutes are the most desirable women in the world, etc etc.

Ever heard of Jenna Jameson?

[Gnosticism Is A Hoot]

it is important to remember that the primary purpose of sex is procreation

O RLY?

Catholic Natural Law ethics are the is-ought fallacy writ large.

[tzor]

While the Catholic church does have some awfully interesting doctrines related to Mary, ...

The actual Church's position with regrads to Mary is rather interesting, but strangely doesn't involve anything to do with sex.

Prior to the conception of Jeus, the "virginity" of Mary is key to proving that Jesus is the "son of God" conceived through the Holy Spirit.

Post birth, there is a really odd passage in the old teatament about the temple, which the curch also took as a symbol for Mary. "Ezekiel 44:1,2"

1. Then he brought me back to the outer gate of the sanctuary, facing the east; but it was closed.
2. He said to me: This gate is to remain closed; it is not to be opened for anyone to enter by it; since the LORD, the God of Israel, has entered by it, it shall remain closed.

See this for a discssion.

One other tradition was the notion that while lots of sex was very common for the traditional Jewish mindset, abstence was a virute when studying the Torah. If such was the case for being in the presence of the word of God, how much more would it apply to Joseph being in the presence of the Word of God.

[Count Arioch the 28th]

Men far prefer women who've had many more sexual partners, which is why former prostitutes are the most desirable women in the world, etc etc.

Ever heard of Jenna Jameson?

Dude, have you even SEEN Jenna after her last set of plastic surgeries? She's a hideous plastic monstrosity these days. It's a shame what she did to herself.

Anyway...

I think the harsh strictures that people had against female infidelity was actually touched on earlier. It has nothing to do with the catholic church and everything to do with the fact that ancient people didn't have Maury Povish around to find the real father of children. It was a real fear that a man would have to put resources into a child that wasn't here. It's similar to how when a pride of lions gets a new alpha male, the new alpha kills all the cubs right away to prevent other genes from getting passed on.

It's not a "christianz r bad HURRRR" thing, it's a mammals are dicks thing.

[Prak]

it is important to remember that the primary purpose of sex is procreation

O RLY?

While it is technically true, even outside of bullshit catholic rules, no one gives a shit.

[Orion]

I dunno. Orgasm, for instance, happens basically every time for almost all men and most women, if you do it right. Children? happen very occasionally. Remind me which one is the primary purpose?

[Prak]

I dunno. Orgasm, for instance, happens basically every time for almost all men and most women, if you do it right. Children? happen very occasionally. Remind me which one is the primary purpose?

Actually, most women don't experience orgasm from penetration, and most people don't really know this.

But no, procreation is totally the primary purpose of sex, orgasm is the carrot that makes us do it a lot so that pregnancy eventually happens. I'm approaching this from a cynical "all flesh is meat" viewpoint, mind you. The purpose of life is to perpetuate itself so that it feeds other life, which perpetuates itself, and so on. I'm not saying sex should only be had for the express purpose of reproduction, or that you can't use a rubber, I'm just saying that, in a way, the idea that the primary purpose of sex is procreation, is technically correct.

[Count Arioch the 28th]

I dunno. Orgasm, for instance, happens basically every time for almost all men and most women, if you do it right. Children? happen very occasionally. Remind me which one is the primary purpose?

Actually, most women don't experience orgasm from penetration, and most people don't really know this.

That does not jive up with personal experience. Granted, my testing process was far from scientifically rigorous, but I have a 100% rate of women achieving orgasm from penetration, and a nonzero number of women that only had an orgasm from penetration.

I repeat that my sampling was not scientifically scientific, and I also believe my current partner would be displeased if I inquired further, so that's that.

[Prak]

I dunno. Orgasm, for instance, happens basically every time for almost all men and most women, if you do it right. Children? happen very occasionally. Remind me which one is the primary purpose?

Actually, most women don't experience orgasm from penetration, and most people don't really know this.

That does not jive up with personal experience. Granted, my testing process was far from scientifically rigorous, but I have a 100% rate of women achieving orgasm from penetration, and a nonzero number of women that only had an orgasm from penetration.

I repeat that my sampling was not scientifically scientific, and I also believe my current partner would be displeased if I inquired further, so that's that.

Oh there are certainly women who can, or only do, but the research figure used in my Human Sexuality class is 70% can't orgasm from penetration alone. As for my personal research, well, it's two yearsout of date, and a very small sample size...

[Username17]

As is often true, SMBC has the best answer. As for sex's "purpose", that's a stupid argument. Sex has no purpose. The reason that sex happens is because it more rapidly and efficiently reassembles genetic material than the prior and more strictly energetically efficient system of clonal division. That gives sexual creatures an advantage in their ability to obtain and preserve resistance traits and gives the species a selective advantage.

But even that is not sex's purpose. That's just the explanation for why sex exists. An explanation is not a purpose. Water flows down hill because of gravity. But it is not "for" gravity. That's not water's purpose. Water wasn't designed to fill a vital hill-flowing niche, it's just fucking water. And sex is just fucking sex.

Sex isn't for procreation. It's not even good at procreation. If we wanted to be good at procreation, we'd have old people explode into babies when their time came. Sex is around because it's good at genetic re-assortment. Which is actually the whole other end of the scale from systems that are even halfway good at replicating the creature doing it. For fuck's sake, when you reproduce sexually, the offspring is less than half you direct genetic copy. You contribute half the genes, and there's mutation. Cloning is better than 99% reproduction and less work. And we don't do that, because reproduction is stupid.

-Username17

[RobbyPants]

And sex is just fucking sex.

No pun intended?

If we wanted to be good at procreation, we'd have old people explode into babies when their time came.

Awesome.

"Grandma's on her deathbed. Lets get a doctor in here for the delivery."

[tzor]

it is important to remember that the primary purpose of sex is procreation

O RLY?

Yes really. We've sort of forgotten about that part in modern times, but the notion of "I want lots of boys" is one of the biggest motivators for the moral codes in the "Law" of Moses. (With one exception which was the notion that blood was life - this caused them to literally freek out at the thought of a woman's monthly period.)

Skipping the problem of Sodom for a moment, (It had very little to do with sex and more with hospitality) the greatest sexual death offense was with with someone using the withdrwal method and it's not really his wife, but his brother's wife (another duty of the many boys requirement; if you brother dies before he can make sons, you are supposed to do the job in his place ... not just have sex with her, make her pregnant and pump out boys to fill the sons the brother never had).

Once we get into the Christian era, the notion of "legal" and "illegal" children started to enter into the equation. Remember it wasn't until the middle ages when the Church started to actively intervene in the "sacrament" of marriage, and then only in a regulatory capacity.

That doesn't mean that the secondary purpose (It's FUN) wasn't important. But rather that was not the primary motivator of most nomadic polygamous cultures.