You do fucking win at D&D.

[Fuchs]

Why don't you simply state what level the party was, what level the opposition was, and what tactics were used, instead of posturing?

I mean, a psion who can be neutralized (mostly) by a single protection from evil? A bunch of melee characters neutralized by flight? You call that "playing hardcore"?

Any player who'd make such weak characters would be laughed out of your hardcore group.

[Mr. GC]

Why don't you simply state what level the party was, what level the opposition was, and what tactics were used, instead of posturing?

I mean, a psion who can be neutralized (mostly) by a single protection from evil? A bunch of melee characters neutralized by flight? You call that "playing hardcore"?

Any player who'd make such weak characters would be laughed out of your hardcore group.

Because it's much more fun to watch you get all presumptious and make a fool of yourself.

Also: The Protection from Evil (or more precisely Magic Circle) would only stop him for one round. Then he'd do something else, namely Dispel it so mind affecting starts working again (and PC stats are no longer so high). Thing is good parties can easily kill a 200ish HP AC 30 saves of fuck off target in 1 round, so he doesn't live long enough to adapt. Now go ahead, tell me it isn't possible for a Psion to have those stats.

This campaign is soft divided into four tiers. The first is easy for good groups. Just high numbers, standard tactics... a weak character will be horribly murdered in the first five minutes of the game simply because they got focus fired in the surprise round, but good players aren't going to get tripped up by much. See Invis, plenty of Dispels, high stats and the only questionable part is the one where you have to make 2-3 saves a round every round just to take an action, otherwise you are stun juggled while losing around half your life a round.

The second tier has the enemies getting a lot more subtle and a lot more synergestic. The whole dragon and friends is from that. If you haven't worked out standard systematic slaughter tactics by now, you will learn them the hard way here.

The third tier has the enemies saying you know what? Fuck conventional warfare. And so the threats become just about anything but direct combat of any kind. I leave this as an exercise to your imagination as to what it actually means but if you're even approaching the fights as fights at this point you're doing it wrong.

The top tier is where everything just goes nuts. The worse you've done up until now the harder it is but even if you've played perfectly you will still be quickly overwhelmed and run over if you are not all at the top of the game. Needless to say at this point any Fuchs character would be PKed in advance just to not drag down this group and if not, they'd die to the warm up fight. Start being too slow, making mistakes? Enjoy your ECL + Fuck Off and Die encounter from piled up enemies. While up until this point enemies have had some form of weakness, even if it's a bit harder to hit (such as Dispel + touch attacks), now? Expect synergy to cover those weaknesses, at least for the most part. Those melee only enemies now... aren't. Have fun.

[Kaelik]

Why don't you simply state what level the party was, what level the opposition was, and what tactics were used, instead of posturing?

I mean, a psion who can be neutralized (mostly) by a single protection from evil? A bunch of melee characters neutralized by flight? You call that "playing hardcore"?

Any player who'd make such weak characters would be laughed out of your hardcore group.

Because it's much more fun to watch you get all presumptious and make a fool of yourself.

So someone asks you for concrete examples of how the game is played, and you handwave some bullshit about how it's more fun to not make arguments and make fun of people who are making arguments.

You know who you sound like? Benoist.

[nockermensch]

PL's rant goes right the fuck off the rails in question 2. Question 1 is just a bunch of hyperbole about how communication is good, but question 2 begins with:

OK so you have someone who says "the rules don't matter man!" and then tries to use "real roleplay" or some such thing to dominate the universe and complains that you are "rules lawyering" them if you ever dare oppose them? (and in addition to that this is specifically a PLAYER not the GM)

OK first up bullshit. That is probably an exaggerated and unreasonable scenario. You might be unlucky, you might be the one in a million that gets the one actually guy out there that does all that, but it is unlikely.

How is that exaggerated or unreasonable as a scenario? Just look at any of the threads on the RPGSite. The idea that players are entitled to pull bullshit out of their ass and run roughshod over the world by making up abilities that their characters don't actually have is distressingly common. Those assholes over there use "throwing a tantrum, up to and including using threats of physical violence against other people at the table" as their second or even first goto to get what they want.

Sure, these guys simultaneously fap to concepts of "The DM is god" and such. But not to be slowed down by cognitive dissonance they also claim that if the DM doesn't use their godlike powers to allow them to (for example) search a mountainous region the size of Afghanistan and happen to find the cave of a specific super intelligent flying terrorist on short notice despite not having any relevant character ability or experience that they will start tantrums.

This is a real group of people. It's most of the people in the OSR movement. You can't just flippantly claim they aren't real, because they are real.

And I really didn't bother reading any more of PL's rant, because it was already so fucking clueless.

-Username17

Man, this is sad. PL's rant resonated with my own experiences, but by now I'm starting to concede that I'm biased by having only played RPG with a small group of friends.

But then again, fuck the noise. Supposing people like you described actually exist, then the only "right" move is to Not Play With Them. Every other way, you lose. If the only choice is to play with people like that or not playing, there are some free to play MMOs I could interest you.

With all that being said, Mr. GC is still laughably wrong. D&D is not an objective game and the supposed example of a cut-throat party expertly disposing extreme opposition WITHOUT THE KIDDY GLOVES is a gem unintentional comedy. The efficient heroes get to face all that extreme position one bad guy at a time. Because they "silenced the bell tower".

Seriously, they "silenced the bell tower" and got to fight without being overwhelmed by everybody inside the keep because "guard #16 running inside and alerting people" or "shouting" isn't a thing.

[nockermensch]

Why don't you simply state what level the party was, what level the opposition was, and what tactics were used, instead of posturing?

I mean, a psion who can be neutralized (mostly) by a single protection from evil? A bunch of melee characters neutralized by flight? You call that "playing hardcore"?

Any player who'd make such weak characters would be laughed out of your hardcore group.

Because it's much more fun to watch you get all presumptious and make a fool of yourself.

Also: The Protection from Evil (or more precisely Magic Circle) would only stop him for one round. Then he'd do something else, namely Dispel it so mind affecting starts working again (and PC stats are no longer so high). Thing is good parties can easily kill a 200ish HP AC 30 saves of fuck off target in 1 round, so he doesn't live long enough to adapt. Now go ahead, tell me it isn't possible for a Psion to have those stats.

This campaign is soft divided into four tiers. The first is easy for good groups. Just high numbers, standard tactics... a weak character will be horribly murdered in the first five minutes of the game simply because they got focus fired in the surprise round, but good players aren't going to get tripped up by much. See Invis, plenty of Dispels, high stats and the only questionable part is the one where you have to make 2-3 saves a round every round just to take an action, otherwise you are stun juggled while losing around half your life a round.

The second tier has the enemies getting a lot more subtle and a lot more synergestic. The whole dragon and friends is from that. If you haven't worked out standard systematic slaughter tactics by now, you will learn them the hard way here.

The third tier has the enemies saying you know what? Fuck conventional warfare. And so the threats become just about anything but direct combat of any kind. I leave this as an exercise to your imagination as to what it actually means but if you're even approaching the fights as fights at this point you're doing it wrong.

The top tier is where everything just goes nuts. The worse you've done up until now the harder it is but even if you've played perfectly you will still be quickly overwhelmed and run over if you are not all at the top of the game. Needless to say at this point any Fuchs character would be PKed in advance just to not drag down this group and if not, they'd die to the warm up fight. Start being too slow, making mistakes? Enjoy your ECL + Fuck Off and Die encounter from piled up enemies. While up until this point enemies have had some form of weakness, even if it's a bit harder to hit (such as Dispel + touch attacks), now? Expect synergy to cover those weaknesses, at least for the most part. Those melee only enemies now... aren't. Have fun.

And you only see the true end if you finish the campaign on top tier.

Dammit, time to hit gamefaqs.

[Mr. GC]

Why don't you simply state what level the party was, what level the opposition was, and what tactics were used, instead of posturing?

I mean, a psion who can be neutralized (mostly) by a single protection from evil? A bunch of melee characters neutralized by flight? You call that "playing hardcore"?

Any player who'd make such weak characters would be laughed out of your hardcore group.

Because it's much more fun to watch you get all presumptious and make a fool of yourself.

So someone asks you for concrete examples of how the game is played, and you handwave some bullshit about how it's more fun to not make arguments and make fun of people who are making arguments.

You know who you sound like? Benoist.

Weren't you just bitching about that? Because ya know, if anything makes you sound like one of those morons it's doing the same shit you are currently accusing other people are doing.

With all that being said, Mr. GC is still laughably wrong. D&D is not an objective game and the supposed example of a cut-throat party expertly disposing extreme opposition WITHOUT THE KIDDY GLOVES is a gem unintentional comedy. The efficient heroes get to face all that extreme position one bad guy at a time. Because they "silenced the bell tower".

Seriously, they "silenced the bell tower" and got to fight without being overwhelmed by everybody inside the keep because "guard #16 running inside and alerting people" or "shouting" isn't a thing.

I find it is difficult to run across a thousandish feet of open water. Perhaps you fare differently. Likewise, making a DC 100 check to hear shouting is difficult.

See, when you silence the bell tower they don't alert every fucking enemy within miles. When you don't, or don't do it fast enough, you do. And when that bell goes off, it means the enemies in the main area start getting ready for battle, and the 6 dozenish lizardfolk hanging out around the lake take about 5 minutes to get there... so if you somehow aren't dead by being hit by something like a level +10 encounter due to getting everything's attention at once, it gets made into a level +12 encounter just to really drive the point home.

[John Magnum]

So the enemies have a comically poor layout of their base and lines of communication. I thought you said you WEREN'T sandbagging...?

[RobbyPants]

So the enemies have a comically poor layout of their base and lines of communication. I thought you said you WEREN'T sandbagging...?

Yeah, it seems weird to have guards posted in a lookout tower if they are unable to communicate stuff to everyone else.

[sabs]

I mean, if only we had thought about dealing with a 2nd level spell that every fucking cleric in the world has access to. Not to mention Bards. Although why Wizards and Sorcerors don't have access to Silence, or Zone of Silence is a bit weird.

[Fuchs]

Again, just vague fluff about tiers, yet no concrete example, no levels, nothing.

And... crossing 300 meter of water is supposed to be difficult for high-level characters? Did I miss the memo where we were talking about 4E?

[Mr. GC]

So the enemies have a comically poor layout of their base and lines of communication. I thought you said you WEREN'T sandbagging...?

They can't control where the bell tower is. Other than cast Silence before any of the enemies get an action, or kill every enemy before any enemy gets an action, just having the first action be to ring that bell is enough. And that isn't very likely to happen unless you're also doing some serious init boosting... otherwise even if you think to make the right move you won't do it fast enough.

[sabs]

You're missing the point. You have access to dragons and shit. Why are they using a Bell tower as their only means of alarm.

Why do I not have an Alarm spell on the area. Or a dozen other options not involving an easily silenced piece of metal.

[CapnTthePirateG]

Mr. GC, I don't think your example was hardcore enough.

What you should have done was had a bunch of wizard/shadow adepts/incantatrixes with arcane thesis:shivering touch. They could use greater invisibility, nondetection, and insidious magic to sneak up on the party while flying, then use rod-quickened dispels followed by reach spell split rayed empowered shivering touches in an ambush on the party from the air.

Everything else is coddling shitty basketweavers who don't deserve to play D&D.

[Mr. GC]

You're missing the point. You have access to dragons and shit. Why are they using a Bell tower as their only means of alarm.

Why do I not have an Alarm spell on the area. Or a dozen other options not involving an easily silenced piece of metal.

Because the dragon does not know that spell, and if he did it'd only work while the dragon was home. Since if the party really wanted to play it safe, they'd wait for the dragon (and druid) to leave and go hunting...

There's also the small matter of them having more force gathered in one location than many nations. Why would they be on high alert for an impeding attack if not given a reason to think that (such as the party screwing up and getting on their radar ahead of time)?

And since you mention it... later enemies do begin with foreknowledge, and everything that means. Word just doesn't spread instantly. This is yet another example where good parties do infinitely better than bad ones as they are more adaptable and thus less predictable, harder to counter.

[nockermensch]

So the enemies have a comically poor layout of their base and lines of communication. I thought you said you WEREN'T sandbagging...?

It's not sandbagging, it's a programmer's oversight. It should be patched by the next version, and you'll have to plan in advance to neutralize the following, besides the bell:
1) hidden imp lounging by the tower: teleports once troubles start to alert people inside
2) a couple of alarms (mental mode) cast in space around some obvious choke points
3) mook with dancing lights instructed to put up a visual display when the place is attacked.
4) mook with flaming arrow (not the spell, an arrow, which is on fire) instructed to fire at the keep when the place is attacked.
5) one of the trees in the scene was awakened by the druid, is also a druid now and will Animal Messenger a sparrow/bat to deliver the message that they're being attacked (good luck Spoting what one particular tree is doing)

Of course, if you're playing on Top Tier, the Psion is using Mindlink with a couple of nondescript mooks and you'll have to tackle the whole EL +10 evil group at once. You better have the FAQ open on another window and be prepared to reload a lot.

[sabs]

Alarm can be made permanent, and it's a first level wizard spell. What kind of shitty dragon doesn't know most of the major first level spells? What is he a green dragon?

[Mr. GC]

Mr. GC, I don't think your example was hardcore enough.

What you should have done was had a bunch of wizard/shadow adepts/incantatrixes with arcane thesis:shivering touch. They could use greater invisibility, nondetection, and insidious magic to sneak up on the party while flying, then use rod-quickened dispels followed by reach spell split rayed empowered shivering touches in an ambush on the party from the air.

Everything else is coddling shitty basketweavers who don't deserve to play D&D.

I see that you are a moron that is missing the point. Ignoring that Shivering Touch is banned, the whole point of the good parties succeed, bad parties fail thing is to go for something like Dark Souls where the game will brutally murder you for a mistake but is still playing fair. Entire party is OHKOed in the surprise round regardless of strategy, tactics, or prep is like playing low levels all over again.

Now do you understand the difference between these two scenarios?

[Mr. GC]

Alarm can be made permanent, and it's a first level wizard spell. What kind of shitty dragon doesn't know most of the major first level spells? What is he a green dragon?

He has 4 and none are Alarm. One is "bait party into death trap" and one is "my melee attacks are now ranged" though.

[hyzmarca]

So the enemies have a comically poor layout of their base and lines of communication. I thought you said you WEREN'T sandbagging...?

They can't control where the bell tower is. Other than cast Silence before any of the enemies get an action, or kill every enemy before any enemy gets an action, just having the first action be to ring that bell is enough. And that isn't very likely to happen unless you're also doing some serious init boosting... otherwise even if you think to make the right move you won't do it fast enough.

The standard is to use line-of-sight visual communication with shuttered lanterns. In the ridiculous D&D economy, this costs somewhere between 1 and 120 pieces of silver per lantern, depending on which model you are using. You can use a rather simple code (1 if by land, two if by sea) or something much more complex. A skilled signal lamp operator can flash morse very quickly and a read it just as fast. In the daylight you'd use semaphore instead.

Belltowers are like air-raid sirens. They're useful for alerting large numbers of people, particularly civilians, to a danger that is intermittent, like "dragon incoming, get in a hole".

For command and control of a paramilitary group, they're total shit. Optical communication has superior range, superior information density, is less likely to be intercepted (though interception is still possible) and is immune to Silence. It can still be be fucked over by Globe of Darkness, but since lanterns are portable and not tied to any specific infrastructure you can have multiple watchtowers covering the area instead of putting everyone in one belltower.

And even that would be moot if the characters made use of telepathy.

The Dragon doesn't even need Alarm because he has a Breath Weapon, and people will notice that.

And third, a loud shout by a skilled crier can carry a lot further than 1000 feet. Merely applying a +1 per 10 feet modifier to the lisiten check without applying a negative modifier for the guard shouting and trying to be heard is against the spirit of the rules.

[nockermensch]

Mr. GC, I don't think your example was hardcore enough.

What you should have done was had a bunch of wizard/shadow adepts/incantatrixes with arcane thesis:shivering touch. They could use greater invisibility, nondetection, and insidious magic to sneak up on the party while flying, then use rod-quickened dispels followed by reach spell split rayed empowered shivering touches in an ambush on the party from the air.

Everything else is coddling shitty basketweavers who don't deserve to play D&D.

I see that you are a moron that is missing the point. Ignoring that Shivering Touch is banned, the whole point of the good parties succeed, bad parties fail thing is to go for something like Dark Souls where the game will brutally murder you for a mistake but is still playing fair. Entire party is OHKOed in the surprise round regardless of strategy, tactics, or prep is like playing low levels all over again.

Now do you understand the difference between these two scenarios?

Yes. The difference is that dying in Dark Souls means I get to instantly restart, while dying in D&D means the evening is now about "making another character" instead "playing D&D".

But then again, it's a bad comparison. In Dark Souls, the game makers still want you to win, they only want you feel really challenged while doing so. "HARD MODE D&D" means that the DM should earnestly emulate the Int 26 lvl 15 Evil Wizard, the Wis 26 lvl 15 Evil Druid and/or the 1000 years old Evil Dragon. And when guys like these want to defeat the PCs, they'll just do that, by using exactly the same tools the PCs have at their disposition. (divination spells beforehand, then ambush and ultra-murder, since D&D favors this tactic)

Or, let me put this on another way: The instant a party uses a tactic not deducted and countered in advance by a wizard with intelligence in the high twenties or surprises a druid with wisdom in the same high twenties, any pretention of "WE ARE PLAYING REAL D&D" already left the building.

Real hard mode D&D would be a programmed illusion of the wizard appearing to tell the party that the bell tower they just silenced is in fact, your mom, polymorphed. Then rocks fall and you die.

[CapnTthePirateG]

Well, nockermensch ninja'ed me.

But the point is that the fact your party is still alive is because you held back the invisible shadow wizard gank squad. And at that all pretense of "this is an objectively difficult game" goes out the window, because the fact is you could have built the shadow wizard attack squad, And it doesn't matter because the encounters are being tailored by you to something that the party can actually beat, whether or not they are a super pro party of badasses or dumbasses who think fireball is a valid lifestyle choice. You set the bar higher, but you're still manipulating things.

[Whatever]

To expand a bit, killing off characters that you decide are "bad" or too weak does not give your game an objective difficulty. It only makes your game arbitrary. Just like every single other game of D&D ever played.

[Fuchs]

They can't control where the bell tower is.

I thought we were taking high level... those schmucks can't even build a tower where they want to?

[nockermensch]

They can't control where the bell tower is.

I thought we were taking high level... those schmucks can't even build a tower where they want to?

There's no technology for that.

[Mr. GC]

They can't control where the bell tower is.

I thought we were taking high level... those schmucks can't even build a tower where they want to?

Who said it was high level?