De canistro textrinum

[Mistborn]

You forgot to say translated. You also forgot to accurately translate. You also forgot to stop failing at life, and taking cock A into slots B-Z.

But let's ignore your herpaderp fest and look at the actual rules and the actual things being said.

You are playing standard D&D, aka adhering to the lowest possible standards you can while still playing D&D. Here is your encounter distribution, according to those rules you hate so much because they fuck your ass over harder than your mom does.

10%: Level -1.
50%: Level +0.
8.75%: Level +1.
8.75%: Level +2.
8.75%: Level +3.
8.75%: Level +4.
5%: Level +5.

And this is using the most generous assumptions. Now you average that out. I know, math is hard, and you'll babble some bullshit in a furtive, desperate attempt to dodge, or falsely claim this averages 0, but you will be entirely wrong on both counts just as you always are and always will.

The actual average is level +1.05. Now stuff two levels higher is twice as strong, so stuff only one level higher is somewhere in between 100-200% strength. Point is you can pass a SGT and totally fail actual D&D because actual D&D is significantly harder than the SGT that supposedly models actual D&D, even by default.

There's also the small factor that while the average is level +1 (because let's just round that off) there is a non zero chance of encountering things up to four times more difficult than average. At least.

So if you can only deal with average, you get rofflestomped on a regular basis anyways. Even when using the most lax definition of standard D&D.

And we're still just discussing standard D&D, we haven't even gotten into chain raping minotaurs and invisible flying Sorcerers spamming multiple save or loses per round or any of the stuff that happens when you assume the opposition is actually competent.

At this point it may be wise to admit that the CR guidelines get incoherent if you apply them the way you doing. They say ECL+4 encounters have a 50% chance of killing the party and that you face around one of them every level. The CR system assumes that the party can face 4 CR=ECL encounters a day with no one dying and for ECL 1-3 encounters they can prevail by burning more resources than normal.

SGT 50 is more of a minimum standard to not be dragging down the party in general most parties I've played in have at least one person at SGT 70+ who can keep that party alive through tougher encounters by burning more spells and at least one gimp who contributes less than a cohort.

[hyzmarca]

1) You require mutual trust to do that. I can't imagine coming with a character sheet that has written "God of War's son" on it to a strangers table.

I'm going to disagree with this. In so much as you need mutual trust for any campaign, it is true, but "God of War's Son" is ultimately just backstory. Backstory is just a hook for the DM to hand his plot on. If he wants to use it, fine. If he doesn't, then he doesn't have to.

[Mr. GC]

At this point it may be wise to admit that the CR guidelines get incoherent if you apply them the way you doing. They say ECL+4 encounters have a 50% chance of killing the party and that you face around one of them every level. The CR system assumes that the party can face 4 CR=ECL encounters a day with no one dying and for ECL 1-3 encounters they can prevail by burning more resources than normal.

SGT 50 is more of a minimum standard to not be dragging down the party in general most parties I've played in have at least one person at SGT 70+ who can keep that party alive through tougher encounters by burning more spells and at least one gimp who contributes less than a cohort.

That's exactly the problem. You had one guy writing the parts where they said encounters 4 levels higher are a coin toss to sweep your whole team, and another guy writing the parts where you encounter those guys about once a level (oh and you should run) and then ANOTHER guy writing the parts where "Oh, by the time you realize you need to run, at least half of you are dead, and you can't anyways so have a nice death!"

And the SGT is based on only a tiny fraction of this, and an inherently flawed premise so it is no surprise that it is also inherently flawed.

I didn't notice the average +1.05 thing until more recently though. Not that it especially matters since just having any non zero chance of higher level encounters means you must be ready for them or you die. Having them actually be the norm just shoves that in your face. Just like normal D&D slaughters gimps over and over and over again... turning it up to hard mode just means lots of gimp corpses flying up and bouncing off your screen. It shoves it in your face.

So SGT 50 just means "You die to standard D&D anyways."

And since the entire fucking point of it is "Pass = you do not die to standard D&D." it's easy to see where the problem is.

Due to these and many other factors you actually would need something like a 99+ rating on the party in order to be able to handle even standard D&D, much less any higher difficulty. Note, the party. If a specific individual gets hard countered by an encounter, whatever. It happens, even to good characters. If everyone is getting shut down by the same stuff or enough are, or you have one guy carrying the gimps and he gets shut down, well bodies hit the floor. It's that simple.

[virgil]

You forgot to say what the safe word was. You also forgot to accurately tie those knots. I also forgot to stop failing at life, and taking cock A into slots B-Z.

But let's ignore your blisteringly good looks and look at the actual zits and the actual things I'm lancing them with.

You are playing standard D&D, aka adhering to standards I forgot people actually have. Here is your encounter distribution, according to those rules that got stuck together because I keep thinking about my mom.

10%: Level -1.
50%: Level +0.
8.75%: Level +1.
8.75%: Level +2.
8.75%: Level +3.
8.75%: Level +4.
5%: Level +5.

And this is using the most generous assumptions of my intelligence and memory retention skills. Now you average that out. I know, math is hard, and I'm usually entirely wrong when comparing small numbers.

The actual average is level +1.05. Now stuff two levels higher is two levels higher, so I think stuff only one level higher is somewhere in between. Point is I am D&D (and so can you) because actual D&D is significantly harder after listening to me talk, even about stuff that isn't D&D.

There's also the small factor that is my understanding of how levels work. I've encountered them with up to four different angles, and every single time the bubble tells me that it's not straight. At least.

So if you can only deal with average, you couldn't handle me on a regular basis anyways. Even when using the most lax legal code for the use of sedatives.

And we're still just discussing standard D&D, we haven't even gotten into gelatinous cube mounts or homebrew dalek invaders or any of the stuff that happens when you assume the game is actually fun.

I love your awesome ideas, and you totally deserve another hug. Once I get home to my books, I'm totally making Daleks for D&D.

[K]

It's really pathetic that people are talking about the CR system like it works well instead of being pretty shitty and super easy to break.

[Mistborn]

That's exactly the problem. You had one guy writing the parts where they said encounters 4 levels higher are a coin toss to sweep your whole team, and another guy writing the parts where you encounter those guys about once a level (oh and you should run) and then ANOTHER guy writing the parts where "Oh, by the time you realize you need to run, at least half of you are dead, and you can't anyways so have a nice death!"

And the SGT is based on only a tiny fraction of this, and an inherently flawed premise so it is no surprise that it is also inherently flawed.

I didn't notice the average +1.05 thing until more recently though. Not that it especially matters since just having any non zero chance of higher level encounters means you must be ready for them or you die. Having them actually be the norm just shoves that in your face. Just like normal D&D slaughters gimps over and over and over again... turning it up to hard mode just means lots of gimp corpses flying up and bouncing off your screen. It shoves it in your face.

So SGT 50 just means "You die to standard D&D anyways."

And since the entire fucking point of it is "Pass = you do not die to standard D&D." it's easy to see where the problem is.

I think most characters that don't fail the SGT would not have problems with ECL+1 or ECL+2 encounters in parties of 4 (they probably can't take them more than once per day without having a chance of dying). In addition not all encounters are created equal often DMs pad out encounters with low optimization humanoids. The again my experiences may be warped by the presence of optimized conjurers in most games I've played.

[Mistborn]

You forgot to say what the safe word was. You also forgot to accurately tie those knots. I also forgot to stop failing at life, and taking cock A into slots B-Z.

But let's ignore your blisteringly good looks and look at the actual zits and the actual things I'm lancing them with.

You are playing standard D&D, aka adhering to standards I forgot people actually have. Here is your encounter distribution, according to those rules that got stuck together because I keep thinking about my mom.

10%: Level -1.
50%: Level +0.
8.75%: Level +1.
8.75%: Level +2.
8.75%: Level +3.
8.75%: Level +4.
5%: Level +5.

And this is using the most generous assumptions of my intelligence and memory retention skills. Now you average that out. I know, math is hard, and I'm usually entirely wrong when comparing small numbers.

The actual average is level +1.05. Now stuff two levels higher is two levels higher, so I think stuff only one level higher is somewhere in between. Point is I am D&D (and so can you) because actual D&D is significantly harder after listening to me talk, even about stuff that isn't D&D.

There's also the small factor that is my understanding of how levels work. I've encountered them with up to four different angles, and every single time the bubble tells me that it's not straight. At least.

So if you can only deal with average, you couldn't handle me on a regular basis anyways. Even when using the most lax legal code for the use of sedatives.

And we're still just discussing standard D&D, we haven't even gotten into gelatinous cube mounts or homebrew dalek invaders or any of the stuff that happens when you assume the game is actually fun.

I love your awesome ideas, and you totally deserve another hug. Once I get home to my books, I'm totally making Daleks for D&D.

seriously virgil just stop

[Kaelik]

I didn't notice the average +1.05 thing until more recently though. Not that it especially matters since just having any non zero chance of higher level encounters means you must be ready for them or you die. Having them actually be the norm just shoves that in your face. Just like normal D&D slaughters gimps over and over and over again... turning it up to hard mode just means lots of gimp corpses flying up and bouncing off your screen. It shoves it in your face.

So SGT 50 just means "You die to standard D&D anyways."

A SGT test 50 is a character that can Solo 50% of CR 10 vs CR 10s.

A Party of such characters facing four encounters a day is 4 CR 10 people facing a single CR 10, then another CR 10, then a CR 12, then a CR 12.

Can you see how the 4 on one aspect would actually make that easier than the SGT?

[Mr. GC]

I think most characters that don't fail the SGT would not have problems with ECL+1 or ECL+2 encounters in parties of 4 (they probably can't take them more than once per day without having a chance of dying). In addition not all encounters are created equal often DMs pad out encounters with low optimization humanoids. The again my experiences may be warped by the presence of optimized conjurers in most games I've played.

Right, so ignoring virgil having a tantrum over in the corner...

Characters that barely pass the SGT could do 1-2... except there's actually 4, by the minimum standards and that's the problem.

Even humanoids can sweep some gimps, so whatever.

The problem with the gimp carrying approach is the moment something counters that (say, by having non trivial will saves) it starts hitting people, and they start hitting the floor.

[nockermensch]

Couldn't you two guys take the trivial and ultimately boring and pointless discussion on how to win at D&D (STEP ONE: browse gamefaqs.comBG, GitP or any other forum where people still care about it and copy a strategy guidebuild; STEP TWO: "win the game") back to thread you created about it? Nobody but you are impressed by how big your e-penishigh your numbers are because in the end, you're still the trolls celebrating your "wins" in a cooperative game while everybody else stares in disbelief.

This thread is about what to do to avoid creating more people like you, so don't derail it.

But since more people are jumping on the imageboard thing, let me repost one (ORIGINAL CONTENT, BITCHES) to remember you of what you're actually accomplishing:


Every day, until you like it.

[virgil]

Right, so ignoring virgil having a delicious sandwich over in the corner...

that you would assume I wouldn't share. If you wanted some of my sandwich, all you had to do was ask.

[Mr. GC]

Right, so since this guy is only about 95% retard right now...

Couldn't you two guys take the trivial and ultimately boring and pointless discussion on how to win at D&D (STEP ONE: browse gamefaqs.comBG, GitP or any other forum where people still care about it and copy a strategy guidebuild; STEP TWO: "win the game") back to thread you created about it? Nobody but you are impressed by how big your e-penishigh your numbers are because in the end, you're still the trolls celebrating your "wins" in a cooperative game while everybody else stares in disbelief.

First of all, those boards are terrible places to seek quality information, which is also a good part of the problem. Second, copying a build doesn't mean knowing how to use it, which is why the first point is true - if you go there, you could get some people to tell you what if you really looked but never why, and never even be able to present the hard questions, much less correctly answer them.

Second, while you're cooperatively dying on the floor, I'm busy actually killing things and taking their stuff, as opposed to being killed by them and having my stuff taken. Or let me rephrase - that's what we are doing. We are winning, cooperatively, by competing against those guys over there.

Which just means your posts are more standard basket weaver drek.

This thread is about what to do to avoid creating more people like you, so don't derail it.

Because you have so very much respect for the premises of threads and would never think to derail them... oh wait, you and your butt buddies have been doing that the entire time. And then you made another troll thread when your bullshit could have easily gone in the first one.

This thread now is about stomping the baskets, driving the gimps before you, and hearing the lamentations of their mothers.

Since you really want to play this game:



In every response to a basket weaver fail post. Every single one. Bring it bitch.

[virgil]

@nockermensch - I'm actually not terribly familiar with that silence the bell tower thing. I can infer some of the context, but not as much as I'd like; so could you elaborate for me?

In regards to your stated purpose of this thread, however, my personal experience has worked pretty well with new players. Essentially explain what kind of game you're running at the time, mentioning the other styles and variants and be honest with what they entail/provide in a non-dismissive manner if they show interest. Importantly, don't try to degrade the other styles (without lying). aka, don't be a dick.

[virgil]

First of all, those boards are terrible places to seek quality companionship, which is only a small part of the problem. Second, having a dick doesn't mean I know how to use it, which is why the first point is true - if you go there, you could get some people to tell you what is wrong with you if you really looked but never why you're wrong, and never even be able to answer the hardstupid questions I give them, much less correctly answer them.

Second, while you're cooperatively dying on the floor, I'm busy actually killing you and taking your stuff, as opposed to being killed by you and having my stuff taken. Or let me rephrase - that's what I think we should be doing.

This thread now is about stomping my feet, hitting my head, and screaming for my mother.

Since you really want to play this game:

In every response to a post that makes me feel as small as I am. Every single one. Bring it bitchthe smores.

I love s'mores! I've noticed most people use the plain Hershey Bar+marshmallow+graham cracker combination. But there are all sorts of fun ones I've been told about

• Elvis S'more: Honey Grahams + Toasted Marshmallow + Banana Slices + Peanut Butter
• Mint Chocolate Chip S'Mores: Chocolate Grahams + Toasted Marshmallow + Mint Chocolate Chips + Peppermint Patty
• Caramel Apple S'More: Cinnamon Grahams + Toasted Marshmallow + Apple Slices + Chocolate Caramel

[Mr. GC]

So we can continue this game.

Whenever you're ready to stop going full retard, the counter spam will cease.

[The Great Fence Builder Speaks]
No, dipshit. It will cease now.

Images removed.
[/TGFBS]

[Mistborn]

>GC and virgil spaming at eachother
>mfw

[RobbyPants]

Listen D&D is a game it has rules. If you ignore those rules and just have the DM bullshit the way nocker advocates than you not really playing D&D are you, you're playing fairy tea party. I'm not going to break into you house and piss in your Cheerios if you play in a way I personally dislike. How ever when you pretend your fairy tea party cooperative story session as D&D then there are going to be problems.

Standard rules are great for a lot of things. They're great for (hopefully) keeping the game running smoother, with less need for MTP. They're great for giving people a good idea of what they're getting into before they sit at the table for the first time with a new group. They're invaluable for trying to have an online discussion with a bunch of people so you can make some common assumptions.

However, just because you use houserules doesn't mean that you're not playing D&D. No one plays pure RAW. Ever. There are plenty of implicit or explicit things that groups do, frequently without even realizing it. I'd wager that most people who think they're playing a fully "by the book" game are houseruling some combination of stealth, diplomacy, and illusions. And all of these things have rules.

"Spells that can at most hit half the party will kill all of it."

Assuming this is about the lightning bolt on the "U-shaped" stairway, you actually lost that argument. You just stopped responding after you went off on a tangent about Fireballs and were also wrong about that.

In fact, that's when I was certain that you were just fucking with us and weren't even serious. You literally counted the target out three (five-foot) squares away from the center of a 20' radius spell and said it put him out of the AoE.

Please. Keep your shit contained to your own thread.

[nockermensch]

@nockermensch - I'm actually not terribly familiar with that silence the bell tower thing. I can infer some of the context, but not as much as I'd like; so could you elaborate for me?

In regards to your stated purpose of this thread, however, my personal experience has worked pretty well with new players. Essentially explain what kind of game you're running at the time, mentioning the other styles and variants and be honest with what they entail/provide in a non-dismissive manner if they show interest. Importantly, don't try to degrade the other styles (without lying). aka, don't be a dick.

It comes from this post, where the clown provides an actual snippet of D&D played by Real Men, not little basket-weaving kids. Of course, once we see that the efficient murder hobos lose one action by casting Silence on a bell tower and then high-five themselves because with just that they totally stopped the people being invaded from alerting their base. On D&D. There's is some military grade irony at work in that post, which I think it's one of the reasons that actual gameplay examples stopped appearing after that one.

You cannot claim to play hardball D&D and then show how it's done because then it'd be patently clear for everybody that the hard mode party is still being coddled by their DM.

[Mr. GC]

"Spells that can at most hit half the party will kill all of it."

Assuming this is about the lightning bolt on the "U-shaped" stairway, you actually lost that argument. You just stopped responding after you went off on a tangent about Fireballs and were also wrong about that.

In fact, that's when I was certain that you were just fucking with us and weren't even serious. You literally counted the target out three (five-foot) squares away from the center of a 20' radius spell and said it put him out of the AoE.

Please. Keep your shit contained to your own thread.

Except that what actually happened was that people continued going full retard that a straight line can travel at 120 degree angles, and after beating that bullshit argument into the ground every which way I stopped responding to it at all, and in the meantime I pointed out Fireball was a better spell to begin with as its area allowed for a greater concentration of targets to be selected at any given time. And then I said he fireballs out of the big hole in the side of the tower, because that'd actually be better.

And then I said if for some reason he had to fight in the tower, say because they came up after him he could Fireball them and not himself. And... he actually could, because if he stood in the spot I designated, the Fireball would explode 10 feet down the stairway... which means it expands 10 feet up and down... and in the former case, stopping JUST short of Koth, while hitting the entire stairwell and most of the surrounding area on both floors.

So you see, you're actually wrong as well. What's more, I brought that into this thread because it was directly relevant. This is more than can be said of your buddies over there.

@nockermensch - I'm actually not terribly familiar with that silence the bell tower thing. I can infer some of the context, but not as much as I'd like; so could you elaborate for me?

In regards to your stated purpose of this thread, however, my personal experience has worked pretty well with new players. Essentially explain what kind of game you're running at the time, mentioning the other styles and variants and be honest with what they entail/provide in a non-dismissive manner if they show interest. Importantly, don't try to degrade the other styles (without lying). aka, don't be a dick.

It comes from this post, where the clown provides an actual snippet of D&D played by Real Men, not little basket-weaving kids. Of course, once we see that the efficient murder hobos lose one action by casting Silence on a bell tower and then high-five themselves because with just that they totally stopped the people being invaded from alerting their base. On D&D. There's is some military grade irony at work in that post, which I think it's one of the reasons that actual gameplay examples stopped appearing after that one.

You cannot claim to play hardball D&D and then show how it's done because then it'd be patently clear for everybody that the hard mode party is still being coddled by their DM.

What actually happened was that a situation was presented that only had one really good solution, and the party found that solution, therefore it was relatively easy (for them) and then the basket weavers go on a tirade about how this means it was easy for everyone at all times, even though they know full well they wouldn't have thought of that, and instead used a less effective tactic if they even thought to use tactics... or thought!

What the basket weaver bitches would have done is go herpity derp across the lake, get spotted at 500 feet, and get murdered well before accomplishing anything by the mooks. Or if they were somewhat less brain dead, at 250.

If they used what they'd consider good tactics, their scout is automatically detected at 90, and the slaughter begins from there with a fully aware and buffed and ready enemy party coming at a shortman group.

If they Leeroy Jenkined it via something faster, like flight? Well they take two rounds of attacks (at least), which probably kills them and if not they have a death timer of "soon" even if the tower guards take no further actions.

All of the hurr and durr about the bell tower ignores all of this, and also ignores that despite all of the things I described this is still on the easier side as encounters go.

[virgil]

So we can continue this game, B5.

Whenever you're ready to stop being better than me, my lips are puckered for you.

Ha! You missed! I counter with C1

[nockermensch]

>GC and virgil spaming at eachother
>mfw

You'll however notice that while everybody else still has fair-play and consideration for the others' intelligences in mind, which show by choosing funny image-macros somewhat pertinent to what's being said (not questioning the taste of said posters, at least I think everybody else here including you is at least trying to be funny), the clown is just spamming a 1200x800px flame. Not even a pretty flame, but a pixelated and watermarked one.

I mean, I'm confused here. It's he spamming us with a Save or Give Up literal wall of flames right now? Since he just admitted in another thread that hardmode D&D is a single strategy game (SoD spam) and that's how they roll in their cult, does this means we're under attack right now? What's the DC for that?

Really, his sense of humor can only be equalled with his D&D gaming skills.

[Mistborn]

Can nocker and GC just fuck already.

[Mr. GC]

I mean, I'm confused here. It's he spamming us with a Save or Give Up literal wall of flames right now? Since he just admitted in another thread that hardmode D&D is a single strategy game (SoD spam) and that's how they roll in their cult, does this means we're under attack right now? What's the DC for that?

Really, his sense of humor can only be equalled with his D&D gaming skills.

It is a burning basket. As long as the clown wants to go and edit my posts and then add random image spam, I will post an image representing a basket weaver getting their just reward.

PF is a single strategy game, 3.5 is not. You'd know this if you actually read and understood my words, which is why you don't get it.

[RobbyPants]

And then I said if for some reason he had to fight in the tower, say because they came up after him he could Fireball them and not himself.

How does Fireballing out of the hole in the wall do any good? The staircase on both levels in on the other side of a solid wall. Line of effect, and all...

Map:

And... he actually could, because if he stood in the spot I designated, the Fireball would explode 10 feet down the stairway... which means it expands 10 feet up and down... and in the former case, stopping JUST short of Koth, while hitting the entire stairwell and most of the surrounding area on both floors.

No. If he stands in the square you designated, he's fifteen feet away from the top of the stairs. Those stairs are protected on both sides by a solid wall. There would be no "going down" the stairway at that point, since it's at the top of the stairs. Unless, you're trying to convince me that the first five feet of the stairs drops ten feet... and that the floor wouldn't break line of effect from a drop off like that. If you're standing back fifteen feet from the stairs and you want to have the center be ten feet below the ground five feet away from the drop off, you'd have to be thirty feet tall.

There is literally no way to get the center of that fireball more than 20 feet away from you and in that stairway from that point. Period.

So you see, you're actually wrong as well.

...Nope.


-e- quote tags

[Mr. GC]

And then I said if for some reason he had to fight in the tower, say because they came up after him he could Fireball them and not himself.

How does Fireballing out of the hole in the wall do any good? The staircase on both levels in on the other side of a solid wall. Line of effect, and all...

You're bad at this.

1: Fireballing out the hole is better.
2: If he can't...

Get it now?

No. If he stands in the square you designated, he's fifteen feet away from the top of the stairs. Those stairs are protected on both sides by a solid wall. There would be no "going down" the stairway at that point, since it's at the top of the stairs. Unless, you're trying to convince me that the first five feet of the stairs drops ten feet... and that the floor wouldn't break line of effect from a drop off like that. If you're standing back fifteen feet from the stairs and you want to have the center be ten feet below the ground five feet away from the drop off, you'd have to be thirty feet tall.

There is literally no way to get the center of that fireball more than 20 feet away from you and in that stairway from that point. Period.

Except what actually happens is it goes down south, eventually hits a wall and explodes, hitting most of the room (but not Koth). Still worse than Fireballing out the hole in the wall, you know, while the targets are still outside like I actually said.