Still more Threads that make us Laugh, Cry, or Both

[Psychic Robot]

I should really make a new ENWorld account. Except you know that they're watching this thread like hawks, so by stating my desire to do so, I can't.

Pshaw.

[Absentminded_Wizard]

One interesting point is that (surprise, surprise) the rules on basic attacks are so poorly written that you can't tell whether ranged and melee basic attacks count as separate powers or two flavors of one power. Theoretically, they could make the argument that you'd have to give up both your melee and ranged basic attacks to pull of the swap.

[SphereOfFeetMan]

That thread is great. Those are some of the most nonsensical video-gamey rules I have seen in 4e. "Hey, I trade the ability to physically pick up and throw a rock to be able to shoot eye lasers."

Awesome.

[Koumei]

This just in: Forgotten Realms 4E is shit.

Loviatar (who, you know, would never serve a man) is now Bane's consort, and only gets that one line of mention. Because bondage-stuff would offend the parents of the little kids they're trying to lure into the game.

Oh, and they randomly moved shit around just to make some kind of mark, or to piss people off, generally made nonsensical changes with the gods, left Elminster the same, switched off the Blood War, made a new dual-wielding Drow hero (no really) and turned the Red Wizards of Thay into disgruntled merchants.

Very lame. But I'm glad it sucks - if it was a diamond floating in an ocean of piss then I would have the dilemma of "What do I do?" Now I can just ignore it like the rest of 4E.

[Psychic Robot]

Elminster is such a stupid self-insert character.

[SphereOfFeetMan]

Very lame. But I'm glad it sucks - if it was a diamond floating in an ocean of piss then I would have the dilemma of "What do I do?" Now I can just ignore it like the rest of 4E.

I have similar feelings. I have spent 8 years mastering 3.x, cobbling together my own fixes and houserules, and adopting others work (Tomes). Before 4e was released I was somewhat disappointed that all that work would go to waste since the new system would fix it.

However, 4e sucks, and I can continue to refine my version of 3.x, as well as my understanding of game design.

[Talisman]

Oh, and they randomly moved shit around just to make some kind of mark, or to piss people off

Of course...it's a new edition!

left Elminster the same

Did you really think they were going to change ElMarySue? I swear, he'll still be annoying gamers when we reach 12th Edition.

made a new dual-wielding Drow hero (no really)

Of course they did.

[RandomCasualty2]

Oh, and they randomly moved shit around just to make some kind of mark, or to piss people off, generally made nonsensical changes with the gods, left Elminster the same, switched off the Blood War, made a new dual-wielding Drow hero (no really) and turned the Red Wizards of Thay into disgruntled merchants.

Given I think FR sucks anyway as a campaign setting... that's hilarious. I'm glad to see it crash and burn, maybe people will want to play more interesting stuff now.

And I always felt the Red Wizards turned merchants was one of the dumbest choices they made in 3E FR. They've got all that power and what do they do? Choose to turn into magic item vendors. Wtf?

The official Drizz't clone is awesome though.

[SphereOfFeetMan]

http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?t=239108

http://ww2.wizards.com/Company/Press/?doc=20080820

Organizational Announcement

Wizards Announces New Organizational Alignment

Wizards of the Coast today announced new organizational alignment to focus on key growth strategies for core brands.

"As a company, we will continue to be the leader in entertaining the lifestyle gamer," said Greg Leeds, President of Wizards of the Coast. "Re-aligning resources ensures we achieve this goal for our most powerful brands."

While restructuring results in some job eliminations, Wizards of the Coast is actively recruiting to fill open positions in multiple areas of the company.

"Organizational change is always difficult on those impacted," said Leeds. "But we will take great care in the transition, and continue to invest in the growth of the business, specifically innovation for our Magic and Dungeons & Dragons fans."

They are fixing their alignment.
...

[Talisman]

No longer Arbitrary Stupid?

[K]

This just in: Forgotten Realms 4E is shit.

Loviatar (who, you know, would never serve a man) is now Bane's consort, and only gets that one line of mention. Because bondage-stuff would offend the parents of the little kids they're trying to lure into the game.

Oh, and they randomly moved shit around just to make some kind of mark, or to piss people off, generally made nonsensical changes with the gods, left Elminster the same, switched off the Blood War, made a new dual-wielding Drow hero (no really) and turned the Red Wizards of Thay into disgruntled merchants.

Where is this info? I checked the site and can't find it.

[Koumei]

Er, there was a discussion on a certain message board on Traditional Games (the thread no longer exists, due to time chomping away at things), where someone was scanning the occasional page from the book they had bought.

I hear there's already a Rapidshit of it, but by the sound of it, I wouldn't endorse downloading it as you'd be wasting bandwidth that could be better spent on low quality porn. Or pictures of animals with objects on their heads. Or going through the archives of a webcomic.

Or, for that matter, anything.

But yeah, you'd need to actually look in the book to discover the epic fail.

RC2: And? All of the WotC settings are made of fail. I like FR for two reasons (NWN was enjoyable, aside from the bugs and the "Lol, Save or Die effects in a single player game", so I like the idea of a game linked into that part of the FR. The other reason is Loviatar), and I like the idea of Planescape minus any "The Lady is a DM Hammer" - best if the game mostly focuses around Sigil itself and one city becomes a huge world of awesome.

So they're not great, perhaps, but I can find enjoyment in them. And they're miles ahead of the other shit churned out. Unless you feel like getting laughed at again and saying Failberron was good.

Sidenote: Dragonborn are unofficially pangolins (scaled egg-laying mammals). Sandshrew/Sandslash count as Dragonborn. Sandslash even gets a breath weapon (Hyper Beam), so it totally works.

[K]

Thanks. Once I have to expend real effort to find idiocy, I get quite bored.

[RandomCasualty2]

RC2: And? All of the WotC settings are made of fail. I like FR for two reasons (NWN was enjoyable, aside from the bugs and the "Lol, Save or Die effects in a single player game", so I like the idea of a game linked into that part of the FR. The other reason is Loviatar), and I like the idea of Planescape minus any "The Lady is a DM Hammer" - best if the game mostly focuses around Sigil itself and one city becomes a huge world of awesome.

The computer games in FR are awesome. Baldur's Gate II was probably one of the best RPGs of all time. The novels aren't even half bad sometimes.

But really, as a setting for a tabletop game, I don't like FR much at all. It's really one of those settings where you can't change anything until you get high in level, because the entire setting is so high powered. And my biggest beef about that is how FR keeps trying to be a normal setting when it's really not. Like Aerie in BG2, always whining about how her wings got clipped off and crap. I mean, shit, you're high level characters in FR, why wouldn't she just want to go the temple and get them regenerated?

Sometimes you play in FR and you feel like it's modeled after middle Earth, then you realize that an archmage owns the alchemy shop across the street.

As for Planescape, it actually makes a bit of sense if you don't think about it too hard, which isn't bad. I mean it's possible to Sigil to actually exist so long as you've got the all powerful Lady of Pain looking over it, and it's not a bad meeting place. Of course, once you leave Sigil, Planescape tends to really suck, because the infinite planes just aren't very exciting to adventure in because they're too big for you to really do anything. So you killed 50 balors... there's infinity more!

[Koumei]

Like Aerie in BG2, always whining about how her wings got clipped off and crap. I mean, shit, you're high level characters in FR, why wouldn't she just want to go the temple and get them regenerated?

That's always a problem with the video games. I mean, in Whores of the Underdark (what? Come on, you've seen what the Drow Queen looks like), Halaster the Fucking Annoying puts some geese on you*. You could totally just disjoin it, or for that matter, be entitled to a saving throw.

But we let the video games get away with more than we let DMs get away with, either because they're not sentient so arguing won't do anything, or because they provide pretty cut scenes and stuff.

And I didn't mention the bit about leaving Sigil because that can easily suck. I liked the occasion we introduced deity worship to the Dark Sun setting, but we weren't just wading through infinite lower planes or anything.

But you still haven't pointed out a better setting. Obviously, everyone just does their own homebrew, sometimes a simple generic "whatever" thing and sometimes putting thought into it.

Sadly, if you're picking from the WotC ones, then you basically have to pick the one you dislike the least, and simply ignore all the shit you dislike in it.

*Or maybe a geas.

[RandomCasualty2]

And I didn't mention the bit about leaving Sigil because that can easily suck. I liked the occasion we introduced deity worship to the Dark Sun setting, but we weren't just wading through infinite lower planes or anything.

Yeah, ironically a plane hopping game works better if you ignore the actual planes completely and just have it be about hopping from different worlds. There really isn't a heck of lot on the planes that you even care about.

But you still haven't pointed out a better setting. Obviously, everyone just does their own homebrew, sometimes a simple generic "whatever" thing and sometimes putting thought into it.

Sadly, if you're picking from the WotC ones, then you basically have to pick the one you dislike the least, and simply ignore all the shit you dislike in it.

Yeah, that's very true.

Generally I just run homebrew and don't run the WotC ones very often. Out of the official settings, FR and Eberron aren't bad if you don't want to think about it too hard. Planescape can be good too so long as you ignore the whole infinite planes problem which makes it all seem pointless.

[Talisman]

But we let the video games get away with more than we let DMs get away with, either because they're not sentient so arguing won't do anything...

Yeah, that's TOTALLY unlike human GMs...

[virgil]

Planescape is enjoyable to romp through, despite RC's ramblings. Not every player has to get all existential. Not single-handedly stopping the Blood War is the same thing as not single-handedly killing the pantheon of your campaign setting, which is the fact you have some petulant players when you say no to either.

[K]

RC2: And? All of the WotC settings are made of fail. I like FR for two reasons (NWN was enjoyable, aside from the bugs and the "Lol, Save or Die effects in a single player game", so I like the idea of a game linked into that part of the FR. The other reason is Loviatar), and I like the idea of Planescape minus any "The Lady is a DM Hammer" - best if the game mostly focuses around Sigil itself and one city becomes a huge world of awesome.

The computer games in FR are awesome. Baldur's Gate II was probably one of the best RPGs of all time. The novels aren't even half bad sometimes.

But really, as a setting for a tabletop game, I don't like FR much at all. It's really one of those settings where you can't change anything until you get high in level, because the entire setting is so high powered. And my biggest beef about that is how FR keeps trying to be a normal setting when it's really not. Like Aerie in BG2, always whining about how her wings got clipped off and crap. I mean, shit, you're high level characters in FR, why wouldn't she just want to go the temple and get them regenerated?

Sometimes you play in FR and you feel like it's modeled after middle Earth, then you realize that an archmage owns the alchemy shop across the street.

I don't think FR is high powered, I think it is just a low-powered setting that tries so hard to conform to DnD's systems that you get dumb things, and it never explains these things.

I mean, you need archmages to cast the high level spells and make the high level items....and you need players to be able to get high level magic items in some kind of customizing way because they are getting to high level....and so you get magic shops run by archmages rather than a reasonable magic item creation system.

The very conventions of leveling should change the kinds of stories you can tell, but these games fix the power level of the setting at some point and will go no further. For example, Aerie's wings problem should not last past 9th level, but the setting is fixed somewhere around 5th level.

The best games always assumed that at some point your power is big enough that the world must change around you. You get a stronghold or followers or something and the adventures you fight do get grander and you aren't just a powerful combat unit but you start commanding your own armies and doing your own plots for enemies to have adventures.

It is a strange thing that the old Basic DnD system used to do this and later editions of DnD didn't.

As for Planescape, it actually makes a bit of sense if you don't think about it too hard, which isn't bad. I mean it's possible to Sigil to actually exist so long as you've got the all powerful Lady of Pain looking over it, and it's not a bad meeting place. Of course, once you leave Sigil, Planescape tends to really suck, because the infinite planes just aren't very exciting to adventure in because they're too big for you to really do anything. So you killed 50 balors... there's infinity more!

Planescape is not about setting advancement, it is about personal advancement. I mean, you can't win the Blood War, but you may be able to get your own personal plane. The setting itself is unchanging, but that doesn't mean you can't have an awesome adventure in the City of Brass and get a cool flaming sword.

On the flipside you get Ravenloft where if you win a few adventures that actual country either gets a a new villain or returns to it's home plane.

[Absentminded_Wizard]

I don't think FR is high powered, I think it is just a low-powered setting that tries so hard to conform to DnD's systems that you get dumb things, and it never explains these things.

I mean, you need archmages to cast the high level spells and make the high level items....and you need players to be able to get high level magic items in some kind of customizing way because they are getting to high level....and so you get magic shops run by archmages rather than a reasonable magic item creation system.

Part of that is probably that FR was initially created (for Ed Greenwood's fiction and later D&D campaign) back in the days of OD&D and became an official setting in the latter days of 1e. Basically, it had evolved as a setting where you only got magic items from the cold, dead fingers of monsters in dungeons, and then had to adapt to the Ye-Olde-Magick-Shoppe mentality of 3e.

The best games always assumed that at some point your power is big enough that the world must change around you. You get a stronghold or followers or something and the adventures you fight do get grander and you aren't just a powerful combat unit but you start commanding your own armies and doing your own plots for enemies to have adventures.

It is a strange thing that the old Basic DnD system used to do this and later editions of DnD didn't.

Yep. In 3e, the paradigm shifted to this idea that characters should be dungeon-crawling from the beginning of the campaign to the end. One reason they eliminated so much interesting stuff in 4e was to make that extremely narrow dream possible.

[Psychic Robot]

Make sense? FUCK YOU 4E ROCKS

[RandomCasualty2]

The best games always assumed that at some point your power is big enough that the world must change around you. You get a stronghold or followers or something and the adventures you fight do get grander and you aren't just a powerful combat unit but you start commanding your own armies and doing your own plots for enemies to have adventures.

It is a strange thing that the old Basic DnD system used to do this and later editions of DnD didn't.

It's all the gold piece economy. Once you need all your gold to buy magic items, buying a castle and hiring soldiers just isn't possible anymore. Unless the soldiers work for free, but that's stupid too.

As far as the world changing, I don't think that should happen. It's more that you become a bigger player in the world, not so much that suddenly you're playing a totally new game. Instead of working for the king, you may actually be the king.. but you're still functioning in the same world, just on a different level of society.

I don't think it's a good idea for the game to just change, like going to suddenly plane hopping adventures. Because that means the entire campaign has changed in focus.

Planescape is not about setting advancement, it is about personal advancement. I mean, you can't win the Blood War, but you may be able to get your own personal plane. The setting itself is unchanging, but that doesn't mean you can't have an awesome adventure in the City of Brass and get a cool flaming sword.

Yeah, that's just not my thing. I don't like static worlds. The PCs should at least get a chance to do something that matters, and the entire nature of Planescape is pretty MMORPGish.

On the flipside you get Ravenloft where if you win a few adventures that actual country either gets a a new villain or returns to it's home plane.

Yeah I've always liked Ravenloft. There are a few things that don't make sense in that setting, but otherwise it's cool.

[Hey_I_Can_Chan]

Given I think FR sucks anyway as a campaign setting... that's hilarious. I'm glad to see it crash and burn, maybe people will want to play more interesting stuff now.

But… but… Forgotten Realms isn't a setting. It's every setting. You want to play pirates? That's there. You want Tarzan? That's there. You want political intrigue? Knights on horseback? Robin Hood? Hogwart's? Underground cities of dwarves and satanic elves? Gnomes with duelling pistols? It's got it all.

Like Rifts, Forgotten Realms is a kitchen sink setting. I'm not sure one can say that, overall, Forgotten Realms sucks. That's like saying 1930s Pulp Earth sucks--dude, you hate the Shadow, the Spider, Tarzan, gangsters, Larry of Arabia, Martians, Fu Manchu, Call of the Wild, and gumshoes? It's too big to hate all it.

[Psychic Robot]

The amount of wanking that goes on with the characters is really stupid, and that's what bothers me the most.

[Hey_I_Can_Chan]

Granted, Greenwood is no ERB, but what kind of folks are you playing with that it becomes so wankish that it deserves hate? You've a Trazan setting, with lost civilizations, scary monsters, foreign invaders, and lots and lots of druids--you don't actually need to huck Tarzan in there as a cameo to save the day or some shit.

Looked at from a pure setting point of view, Forgotten Realms should be able to handle any fantasy jones. But, you're right, get hung up on the characters and you're fucked.