How many times do people have to be told before they wake up to the fact that the Judeo-Christian mindset makes for a really shitty fantasy adventure game? People keep trying to sneak it in, and it is always bad.
Vampire: Say what you like about nWoD, the new morality system is unsalvageable. Sloth? WTF!? It's a game about being immortal vampires whose number one concern is people figuring out that they exist - Sloth isn't going to be a meaningful concern of theirs. From Christian Thebans to a mandatory protestant humanity scale (that yes, punishes you more for stealing expensive things from rich people than for stealing inexpensive things from the poor), the Jesus freaks have taken hold of that game by the balls and Vampire is now singing castratti.
D&D: How many times has someone tried to sell you on playing a Cleric of Jesus? Fvck that shit. It grinds the game to a halt as the player starts quoting real world scripture and trying to get people to renounce their sins and shit. It ends up with irrelevent arguments that would make the baby jesus cry. When the Book of Exalted Deeds came out, it basically ruined any chance of ever having a meaningful discussion about alignment - once a Vow of Chastity is even considered as an Exalted Feat, the whole "kill monsters, take their stuff" trope is out the window.
Shadowrun: Every time monotheists get mentioned even in passing, the setting bcomes incredibly boring. The fact is that you can't have magic without pissing off the Baptists, so there's no point in even having the chapters about Magic and the Vatican. It's a waste of all of our time.
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I went and saw Narnia, and it was actually pretty good - whenever it wasn't babbling on about Jesus. Christianity really makes for very shitty fantasy, but ancient Greek mythological monsters don't.
-Username17
Do you want Jesus with your Orcs?
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Josh_Kablack
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Re: Do you want Jesus with your Orcs?
I gotta disagree on this one, albeit mildly.
If you read between the lines of the Deuteronimist's whole the people got complacent and turned away from the lord once again and that's why we're back here in slavery deal, then the Old Testament is chockablock full of great plot seesds, adventure hooks and setting detail. But you have a bunch of potential pitfalls to avoid if any of your players happen to have that one as their sacred text - so it's not always a good idea to use that as a source or inspiration.
The New Testament is however a boring work all about forgiveness and random miracles, and thematically, that's far more suited to the type of roleplaying which belongs in therapy sessions instead of at your game table.
If you read between the lines of the Deuteronimist's whole the people got complacent and turned away from the lord once again and that's why we're back here in slavery deal, then the Old Testament is chockablock full of great plot seesds, adventure hooks and setting detail. But you have a bunch of potential pitfalls to avoid if any of your players happen to have that one as their sacred text - so it's not always a good idea to use that as a source or inspiration.
The New Testament is however a boring work all about forgiveness and random miracles, and thematically, that's far more suited to the type of roleplaying which belongs in therapy sessions instead of at your game table.
"But transportation issues are social-justice issues. The toll of bad transit policies and worse infrastructure—trains and buses that don’t run well and badly serve low-income neighborhoods, vehicular traffic that pollutes the environment and endangers the lives of cyclists and pedestrians—is borne disproportionately by black and brown communities."
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RandomCasualty
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Re: Do you want Jesus with your Orcs?
I dont' see any place for Christianity in D&D, and trying to include that stuff in the WoD morality system is stupid.
On the other hand, I do think that games set in the real world or some version thereof, like Shadowrun really have to include Christianity to some degree. Lets face it, it's a major force in our world and you just can't easily write it out of your storyline, given that religion is a catalyst for so many events in the world. To expect them to just fade away 50 years in the future or simply ignore their existence hurts suspension of disbelief. Without Islam, Judaism and Christianity, Earth just doesn't feel like Earth anymore.
When I'm playing a game set on Earth, I like to see some real world religions come into play as factions, and it's cool to have some Christian guy trying to save people's souls. It's just that his ideology shouldn't be built into the systems of the game. Then again, I generally oppose the idea of a morality mechanical system to begin wtih. Black and white labels have never appealed to me in any system.
On the other hand, I do think that games set in the real world or some version thereof, like Shadowrun really have to include Christianity to some degree. Lets face it, it's a major force in our world and you just can't easily write it out of your storyline, given that religion is a catalyst for so many events in the world. To expect them to just fade away 50 years in the future or simply ignore their existence hurts suspension of disbelief. Without Islam, Judaism and Christianity, Earth just doesn't feel like Earth anymore.
When I'm playing a game set on Earth, I like to see some real world religions come into play as factions, and it's cool to have some Christian guy trying to save people's souls. It's just that his ideology shouldn't be built into the systems of the game. Then again, I generally oppose the idea of a morality mechanical system to begin wtih. Black and white labels have never appealed to me in any system.
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The_Matthew
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Re: Do you want Jesus with your Orcs?
I agree with Josh on this one. The old testament is one of the most interesting collections of plot seeds and adventure hook I have ever laughed myself to sleep reading. I mean their God is an awesome and mighty force, threatening his own people for screwing up at all. I love it.
That being said, anything in the new testament is utter crap. I play D&D because it glossess over such moral questions as 'is it right to kill that man over there?' If I wanted to be looked down on for 'sinful' acts I'd join a church, but I don't. D&D is typically the RP light game where you kill things because you either can, need to, or simply want their stuff, and the BoED simply gives you options to either (a) get power for no good reason and not change your actions one bit or (b) stop being a PC because you can no longer act in any meaningful way to aid the party.
So lets review: rain of fire and brimstone + turning people to salt = good adventure hook; non-violent activist bothers you about converting to a religeon he dosn't even understand = bad hook. Vow of Poverty Druid = broken; Vow of Peace Fighter = joke.
And I prefer a side of Buddah with my Orc anyway.
That being said, anything in the new testament is utter crap. I play D&D because it glossess over such moral questions as 'is it right to kill that man over there?' If I wanted to be looked down on for 'sinful' acts I'd join a church, but I don't. D&D is typically the RP light game where you kill things because you either can, need to, or simply want their stuff, and the BoED simply gives you options to either (a) get power for no good reason and not change your actions one bit or (b) stop being a PC because you can no longer act in any meaningful way to aid the party.
So lets review: rain of fire and brimstone + turning people to salt = good adventure hook; non-violent activist bothers you about converting to a religeon he dosn't even understand = bad hook. Vow of Poverty Druid = broken; Vow of Peace Fighter = joke.
And I prefer a side of Buddah with my Orc anyway.
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Desdan_Mervolam
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Re: Do you want Jesus with your Orcs?
In general, nWoD has a whole lot less to do with Judeo-Christian philosophy than it's previous incarnation. I mean, old WoD had their flagship game being about cursed undead descended literally from the very Caine from the book of Genesis. At that point, you really have to work hard to extricate the game world from a JC cosmology, and even games like Werewolf that tried really damned hard to creat a new religion for their characters didn't really succeed. Sure, nWoD actually asks which biblical sin and virtue your character best exemplifies, but they don't actually try to tell you explicitly that God exists within their world.
Though, I do agree with your point when you get down to it, Frank. The Humanity system is now, and has ever been really arbitrary. And while I think that it's not setting-inappropriate to put everyone (As opposed to just humans and vampires) on Humanity when the whole point of the setting is supposed to be about not becoming an evil bastard, I will readily admit that the Humanity system is always one of the parts of the game I really don't pay much attention to during the de rigure of gaming. I just don't want my game becoming a tired stereotype where half the party laments their lost humanity while the other half takes children apart with bandsaws.
-Desdan
Though, I do agree with your point when you get down to it, Frank. The Humanity system is now, and has ever been really arbitrary. And while I think that it's not setting-inappropriate to put everyone (As opposed to just humans and vampires) on Humanity when the whole point of the setting is supposed to be about not becoming an evil bastard, I will readily admit that the Humanity system is always one of the parts of the game I really don't pay much attention to during the de rigure of gaming. I just don't want my game becoming a tired stereotype where half the party laments their lost humanity while the other half takes children apart with bandsaws.
-Desdan
Don't bother trying to impress gamers. They're too busy trying to impress you to care.
Re: Do you want Jesus with your Orcs?
I'll have to disagree on Narnia.
They managed to make the story even worse than the book, with the kids not actually doing anything useful in the game. And they made the White Witch randomly cruel instead of calculating. And they skipped the actual lesson of 'why you keep you sword clean' and. and and...
Pretty centaurs don't make up for it. Especially when they're animated the same way as TV shows over a decade ago, and then the animals and whatnot are inconsistently animated - look, the centaur with the horn had a different number of hip bones than the general. Argh.
And don't even start Sammi on the rigging of the lion...
-Crissa
They managed to make the story even worse than the book, with the kids not actually doing anything useful in the game. And they made the White Witch randomly cruel instead of calculating. And they skipped the actual lesson of 'why you keep you sword clean' and. and and...
Pretty centaurs don't make up for it. Especially when they're animated the same way as TV shows over a decade ago, and then the animals and whatnot are inconsistently animated - look, the centaur with the horn had a different number of hip bones than the general. Argh.
And don't even start Sammi on the rigging of the lion...
-Crissa
Re: Do you want Jesus with your Orcs?
Brief anecdote.
Several years ago in one of my group's D&D campaigns a visiting player for was a cleric of Jesus. A purple worm ate him (and 3 others, purple worms digest with equal opportunity).
I've played with plenty of cleric players who try to insist that all other deities are simply incarnations of their deity of choice (usually Pelor or Rao). Not quite the same as a christian cleric, but the monotheistic preaching in the D&D world is still wearing thin on me.
Several years ago in one of my group's D&D campaigns a visiting player for was a cleric of Jesus. A purple worm ate him (and 3 others, purple worms digest with equal opportunity).
I've played with plenty of cleric players who try to insist that all other deities are simply incarnations of their deity of choice (usually Pelor or Rao). Not quite the same as a christian cleric, but the monotheistic preaching in the D&D world is still wearing thin on me.
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Count Arioch the 28th
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Re: Do you want Jesus with your Orcs?
I don't think Christianity works in D&D at all.
Anyone trying to claim that there's only one true god is going to get a cold reaction (at best!) from the myriad clerics of all th other deities.
I could see something like that in Eberron, where the gods just don't interfere in people's lives and divine magic doesn't flow directly from a deity. And certainly, if the area called for it, I would put it in a real wolrd campaign. (For example, I couldn't see a crusades era RW adventure NOT featuring christianity, but Jesus would stick out like a sore dick in 6th century Japan.)
Anyone trying to claim that there's only one true god is going to get a cold reaction (at best!) from the myriad clerics of all th other deities.
I could see something like that in Eberron, where the gods just don't interfere in people's lives and divine magic doesn't flow directly from a deity. And certainly, if the area called for it, I would put it in a real wolrd campaign. (For example, I couldn't see a crusades era RW adventure NOT featuring christianity, but Jesus would stick out like a sore dick in 6th century Japan.)
In this moment, I am Ur-phoric. Not because of any phony god’s blessing. But because, I am enlightened by my int score.
Re: Do you want Jesus with your Orcs?
I've got to say that Christianity can be a great addition to games. I loved that game where you played an angel or demon (or human), Nomine something?
And, as others have said, adding OT stuff (or using it as a setting) can be a lot of fun. Just remember that you can re-write the religion basically however you like, people have been doing that for over 2,000 years.
I like making vampires descended from Jesus, as I thought they were going to be in Queen of the Damned (what a dissappointment). The whole trancendental (thransubstantial?) cannibalism thing takes on a whole new, and fun, meaning. Especially if you're trying to do something "Hellsing"-esque.
On the other hand, Christians are generally an awful addition to games. There are some exceptions, but remember that The Church has been the single, greatest (and only?) enemy of RPGs.
And, as others have said, adding OT stuff (or using it as a setting) can be a lot of fun. Just remember that you can re-write the religion basically however you like, people have been doing that for over 2,000 years.
I like making vampires descended from Jesus, as I thought they were going to be in Queen of the Damned (what a dissappointment). The whole trancendental (thransubstantial?) cannibalism thing takes on a whole new, and fun, meaning. Especially if you're trying to do something "Hellsing"-esque.
On the other hand, Christians are generally an awful addition to games. There are some exceptions, but remember that The Church has been the single, greatest (and only?) enemy of RPGs.
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Username17
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Re: Do you want Jesus with your Orcs?
It is true that Christianity has a lot to contribute story-wise. As the world's longest running doom's day cult, the Christians have produced a flat majority of the apocalyptic tirades told by mankind. But I think Catharz is right that stealing from Christianity and using Christianity are very different.
The basic tenet of the Christian belief is that the world is ending... an minute now... so it doesn't really matter what you've done, only what side you are on now. That can be kind of cool for a story motiff, but's a level of intensity that is pretty boring to keep going for a long campaign, and down right stultifying to maintain for one thousand nine hundred and sixty years.
-Username17
The basic tenet of the Christian belief is that the world is ending... an minute now... so it doesn't really matter what you've done, only what side you are on now. That can be kind of cool for a story motiff, but's a level of intensity that is pretty boring to keep going for a long campaign, and down right stultifying to maintain for one thousand nine hundred and sixty years.
-Username17