Game Systems: when a disadvantage is not a disadvantage

[RandomCasualty]

1139446011[/unixtime]]
Unless items move back where they started at the end of the spell, every telekinetic movement is a long-term effect.

Well, just hurling something probably isn't that big of a deal. It won't help you carry good far distances, and since you're burning a spell slot per telekinetic thrust, a wizard probably isn't going to be more efficient than a real construction crew, so long as you limit precision. If you wanted a big heavy statue carried over a long distance, you'd still want a wagon, because it's just more efficient that way.

Now if you have a ring of telekinesis that's instant use, now it becomes more of a long term ability, since the wizard can keep on doing it. But if we force the wizard to run out of slots, its really not that big of a deal. Not something that can take over an economy anyway.

I mean there isn't much you can use it for unless you allow it to lift truly titanic amounts of weight.

[Josh_Kablack]

Bullcrap. The invention of dynamite revolutionized construction and mining methods, even though dynamatie cannot be used for anything but single short explosions.

[erik]

1139560834[/unixtime]]
Well, just hurling something probably isn't that big of a deal. It won't help you carry good far distances, and since you're burning a spell slot per telekinetic thrust, a wizard probably isn't going to be more efficient than a real construction crew, so long as you limit precision.
<snip>
I mean there isn't much you can use it for unless you allow it to lift truly titanic amounts of weight.

I don't know why you are even mentioning the thrust. You get to move up to 375 pounds at 20' per round, up to your level in rounds. This is handy for construction since you don't have to build scaffolding to move weighty beams up 300'.... not as handy as just polymorphing into a giant creature who can fly, but hey.

The real super-duper construction and all-around logistics wrecking spell is Shrink Item. Slap a bunch of shrink items on heavy construction materials, and you can enjoy the ease that comes from making a 4000lb slab of stone a mere pound in weight (density of granite being around 2600kg/m^3, means this is well within the range of a 15th level caster's 30 cubic feet for shrink item). Where did you want that pyramid sir?

Get a bunch of shrink items going and you can move 375 pounds of shrink item'd stone so long as they are connected by string (making them one object for the purposes of telekinesis). That's 75 tons. That's titanic weight! Potential energy for 150,000 pounds of stone moved 300 feet up equals a bit under 61 MegaJoules. That's a lotta energy. Granted it took 375 castings of shrink item, but hey, it's worth it for the record books.

Mmm...
I'm thinking of playing a halfling caster with shrink item and a bag full of 4000 pound rocks which he will toss at enemies as his main mode of attack. It doth amuse.

[Username17]

Mmm...
I'm thinking of playing a halfling caster with shrink item and a bag full of 4000 pound rocks which he will toss at enemies as his main mode of attack. It doth amuse.

Heh.

-Username17

[Neeek]

On a related note, I've been wanting to shrink logs into arrows then shoot them at people. I've got no idea what that'd actually do, mechanics-wise, but I love the visual.

[RandomCasualty]

1139648146[/unixtime]]
I don't know why you are even mentioning the thrust. You get to move up to 375 pounds at 20' per round, up to your level in rounds. This is handy for construction since you don't have to build scaffolding to move weighty beams up 300'.... not as handy as just polymorphing into a giant creature who can fly, but hey.

Well, keep in mind that someone has to secure those weighty beams into the structure and holding them there for a few rounds probably isn't going to be enough time. If you don't do it fast enough, they come crashing down to earth and likely break, and possibly kill workers and all.

The real super-duper construction and all-around logistics wrecking spell is Shrink Item.

Yeah, shrink item is real problematic and should probably be tossed. Personally I've always found it a pretty stupid spell to begin with. There's way too many abuses you can pull of with this spell and not really any good reason to have it in the game.

SHrink item is of course a long term effect.

Bullcrap. The invention of dynamite revolutionized construction and mining methods, even though dynamatie cannot be used for anything but single short explosions.

There are a few exceptions. But for the most part, long term effects are the dangerous ones. Having a bulldozer that works for only a few minutes isn't all that big a deal. Having one you can use all day totally changes things.

[Crissa]

What I always thought was that shrink item lets you shrink it, but doesn't allow you to do anything but transport it by bulk.

Sure, that means a wizard can sit there all day shrinking blocks of stone, but the bloxks still have to be cut, moved, and placed. All shrink item does for you is make the trip down the Nile easier. Once you're at the end, the item is still just as hard to position and lock in place.

-Crissa

[erik]

Shrink Item isn't just a shipping spell though cutting out 99.99% of the work of moving it is a huge help, and presumably things regrow in all directions, so for some things (like a frickin huge stone pyramid) simply putting them centered on where you want em is enough.

Shrink Item is insanely unfair as a prep-for-combat spell. The shrinked object becomes full size upon impact or command word. It's like they meant for thousands of pounds to be chucked each round by level 5 wizards. They even give a nod to its ability to compress alchemist's fire and give it 4000 times the amount of fuel in a single vial in the spell description.

Shrink Item's a good substitute for Knock too, so long as the door is non-magical.

Shrink Item can turn non-magical armor into a cloth napkin (vs. Will save). It will likely turn back to armor as it hits the floor, but now the enemy is no longer wearing it.

Ah, unintended spell uses.

[RandomCasualty]

I'm really not sure what legitimate purpose shrink item adds to the game to be honest. I mean originally the spell was pretty much created to prior editions to allow PCs to get more treasure out of dungeons. So you could shrink down that big heavy statue you found and carry it back to town without damaging it and sell it. And back then you seriously didn't care if people did that because a little extra gold didn't do anything.

Now, we really don't want people doing that at all because gold is supposed to be strictly controlled. So the game has problems when your PCs try to sell the dungeon dressing, because that translates into more magical items.

It's original function isn't even something you want happening anymore, and it has a huge list of ways to abuse the hell out of it. I think it's time to send that sacred cow to the slaughterhouse.

[Neeek]

1139781197[/unixtime]]I'm really not sure what legitimate purpose shrink item adds to the game to be honest.

You mean other than magical shrinking being a staple of fantasy, and *not* being able to do it would make any such story impossible to do?

[RandomCasualty]

1139782169[/unixtime]]
You mean other than magical shrinking being a staple of fantasy, and *not* being able to do it would make any such story impossible to do?

What fantasy stories have really featured magically shrinking objects that weren't magic items on their right. I really can't think of many wizards that could shrink anything on command and turn it into a clothlike material. That's just weird.

[fbmf]

[The Great Fence Builder Speaks]
Discussion of economics moved to its own thread by request.
[/TGFBS]

[User3]

What fantasy stories have really featured magically shrinking objects that weren't magic items on their right. I really can't think of many wizards that could shrink anything on command and turn it into a clothlike material. That's just weird.

[counturl=31]Oh[/counturl] [counturl=32]really, [/counturl] [counturl=33]now?[/counturl]

[RandomCasualty]

Well KQ5 is an epic spell pretty much to shrink the whole castle. That's more of an entrapment spell anyway as opposed to a true shrinking magic, since it isn't being shrunk for portability. So shrink item doesn't even fill that niche, it doesn't even come close. That'd require an epic spell of ridiculously high DC.

As for the other two examples you cited, I'm not at all familiar with either, so I really can't state one way or the other.

[Username17]

Journey to the West is the fictionalized account of the bringing of Budhism to China by a (really stupid) monk accompanied by a couple of demons who needed to work off some karma by doing something worthwhile. It is the fantasy epic of Asian literature, and is probably the most widely recognized piece of fiction on the planet. It has been retold countless times over the centuries. You are probably most familiar with it being retold as Dragon Ball (the original, Dragon Ball Z has little to do with the original source material), or Monkey Magic.

The point, of course, is that Hanuman's signature weapon is a metal staff that changes size on command that he hides behind his ear. There's a lot of other size changing objects in it as well, but since it is a folk story at heart, those details change from telling to telling.

-Username17

[Josh_Kablack]

You missed a few

Only two of those are on Gygax's list of source material in the 1st ed AD&D DMG, so the others might not count.

[RandomCasualty]

Well Josh, shrinking people is actually an entirely different thing, and while that's certainly a big staple of fantasy, It's just not something shrink item was meant to do. That's more along the lines of reduce person, only somewhat more significant.

I wouldn't say size changing isn't a staple of fantasy, only that for the most part, shrinking down a mundane object and storing it as a clothlike object in a kind of stasis isn't something that you see in fantasy stories.

And lots of the examples cited, from KQ5 to Fantastic Voyage tend to be more about plot device shrinking than true common place shrinking. What i mean is that the shrinking effect isn't something you see all the time. It's some special one shot effect to advance the plot.

About the only one that sounds remotely like Shrink item is Journey to the West, which I'm really not familiar with, though I'll take Frank's word for it about that one. That actually sounds like a common size changing effect, though I think it may just be duplicateable by simply having it as an effect of a magic staff rather than a spell you can cast on anything.

I mean basically thus far I haven't seen an example that says "we have to have shrink item". Hanuman could just have a magical shrinking staff and as for the other examples, they tend to be more about reduce person or some kind of crazy epic plot device spell.

[User3]

I wouldn't say size changing isn't a staple of fantasy, only that for the most part, shrinking down a mundane object and storing it as a clothlike object in a kind of stasis isn't something that you see in fantasy stories.

It's made like that out of convenience for the player instead of any genre-abiding concerns.

There really isn't a pressing flavor or game balance reason why shrink item can't just replicate a minature version of the original item and the replica is only a portal to the big one. Like Secret Chest.

I think it's kind of cool, personally. You can put it in a book like one of those pressed-leaf collections or put it on your body as a bizarre tattoo art power.

I mean basically thus far I haven't seen an example that says "we have to have shrink item". Hanuman could just have a magical shrinking staff and as for the other examples, they tend to be more about reduce person or some kind of crazy epic plot device spell.

We don't come up with a lot of uses for shrink item because:

1) The economy is basically fuct as it is, eliminating economic uses.

2) The magic item system is built in a way so that all characters have full access to their l33t ninja gear without having to leave some of it at home.

3) There already exist a multitude of magical items and effects which remove the necessity of having to shrink items and use it for later. Like, there's no real need to use shrink item to store a house, as I can name three effects in this game that will replicate a house for you. A wizard or a cleric can wave their hands and come up with enough swords for their army or enough provisions to last them for weeks.

4) Shrinking people is a totally separate effect in this game.

If we were in a game like, say, Shadowrun where the above certainly isn't guaranteed by any measure, shrink item as a spell would be beyond awesome. Like, characters revolving their entire Shikamaru Naru plan around shrink item awesome.

[User3]

Shrink Item has one valid use: turning dead pit fiends into plush animals for your bed.

Sooo cute!

Seriously, its a spell for breaking the game. You can use it as intended and carry away that valuable statue that was intended as flavor text, thus breaking the economics of your game, or you can carry around boulders to hurl down hills or flying positions to break the damage caps of your game, or you can use it to shrink crazy large amounts of materials like alchemist's fire and break the mechanics of your game when you try to figure out just much damage it causes.