Andy Admits Polymorph is too good!

[Count Arioch the 28th]

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dd/20060216a

Edit: Errata file: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20040125a

[RandomCasualty]

Am I reading this wrong or did their change to wildshape do absolutely fucking nothing?

You still get the physical ability scores, the natural armor and the extraordinary attacks of the creature. I don't see how it's different from it was before. Seems to me like all they did was get their favorite nature boy out of the range of the blast radius when polymorph supposedly gets nerfed in the PHB2.

[User3]

You aren't reading it wrong. The errata doesn't make the slightest difference to the way Wildshape works, it just takes it out of the "line of fire" by making it no longer dependent upon the polymorph chain.

You see, there are two problems with Polymorph that are totally game breaking:

[*] Noone, not even the actual writers of the original spells, understands how the polymorph inheritance works.

[*] Despite the threads with hundreds of posts on the subject, noone knows what exactly Polymorph effects can do after you consider all the monsters whose statlines are referenced in various monster books and adventures.

And while the tirade on the website is all about the second problem, the only thing their errata actually addresses is the first problem. :shrug:

Further, it doesn't actually solve that problem - many things are now dependent upon Alternate Form, which is itself partially written (and rather incompletely) in the Monster Manual Errata. So to operate any of the spells or effects previously dependent on Polymorph now requires:

[*] Looking at the spell or effect itself.
[*] Looking at the errata for that spell or effect and performing the sentence by sentence replacement.
[*] Looking at the Alternate Form power in the Monster Manual.
[*] Looking at the Monster Manual errata for the Alternate Form power and performing the sentence by sentence replacement.
[*] Perform the directed operations of the revised and replaced version of the spell or effect on the revised and replaced version of the Alternate Form power.
[*] Find the monster entry in question and perform the requested alterations to your character.

You got that? You want to whip out five different instruction sets before you're allowed to begin applying stat replacement on your character in the middle of the game? For the record, that's six pieces of text with an ambiguous inheritance structure.

---

They noticed that the car was on fire, so they decided to drive it off a cliff into a frozen lake.

-Username17

[User3]

Well, for Alternate Form errata in MM3.5 they do say: "The creature retains its HD, hit points, base attack bonus, and base save bonuses, although its total attack
and save modifiers may change due to a change in ability scores."

I'm fearing the twist of this to imply that total hit points are not altered by your new constitution (like back in 3.0 if I recall properly). I think they just meant it to mean that you don't change to hit die types or any such nonsense when changing forms, but the ambiguity remains.

I'm holding my breath to see how much this polymorph hullabaloo is gonna screw my intended bard/barbarian/wild runner/sublime chord for living greyhawk (who at level 11 was gonna be polymorphed into a bruiser form for combats). If they nerf polymorph as much as they should then I'm tempted to eat the wasted endurance feat and just go bard/s-chord since the whole build was rather silly and convoluted anyway.

[User3]

Note that the rules about how Constitution Modifier are applied haven't changed, so you could still voluntarily change your hit points to the new form by playing pretty pretty princess dress-up with some Bracers of Health.

See, when your Constitution changes, your hit points are reevaluated with your new Constitution Modifier. You don't just change your hit points with the difference in Constitution Modifier from the change. It's a subtle point, but an important one when people bust out stupid crap like changes in Constitution that don't readjust your hit points.

So let's say you're a 7th level Wizard with a Con of 10 and 20 Hit Points. You transform into a Troll and now have a Con of 23 and the same Hit Points (which is to say 20). But now you put on some Bracers of Health +2, and your Hit Points are reevaluated with your Con Mod of +7 - which means that you have 69 Hit Points. If people are whipping out those pieces of bull again, it would make me very sad.

---

And for the record: having Baleful Polymorph change your base save modifiers and not your hit dice is the dumbest idea ever.

-Username17

[User3]

Luckily, you can still wear a True Necromancer around your neck in tiny turtle form by using Baleful Polymorph and Flesh to Stone.

I mean, how else do they expect you to get a Desecrate Aura? Taking True Necromancer levels?

-----------------

Yeh, it looks like they are doing a full rewrite of Polymorph. I mean, they've tried Frank's old idea of Monster Form X spell where each spell is one monster and it only grants natural attacks and stat mods. Hopefully, no one really responded to that.

In the article, they actually complain that monster designers have to think about what someone could do if they polymoprhed into that monster. Basically, they are admitting that the entire idea of CR and ECL is crap because monsters are still made by the old 2e technique of randomly cobbling together too many abilities and the 1e technique of making puzzle monsters that can only be destroyed by a single spell you may not have memorized(and definitely wouldn't think to use).

I personally don't have a problem with polymorph effects, in principle. I do have a problem with the fact that at any particular HD or CR you can find wildly different stats for an average monster at that level, meaning that every new book is a new chance to dumpster dive for more raw power.

I mean, if turning into a Firbolg only meant that you were at the high end of the Str curve at that level and comparable to other high Str bruisers at that level, then it'd be Ok. Right now, a polymorpher wanting a high Str would be a fool to turn into a 14 HD frost giant with a Str of 29 when he could be a 13 HD firbolg with a Str of 36(a +4 mod improvement), three more points of natural armor, a trample attack, and better stats across the board (plus, with the right effect, fast healing and rock catching).

When monsters are built at least as well as characters, then polymorph might be OK. Of course, try to tell that to the Bard 6/Barbarian 6.

Ps, I love how druids drop all their swag when they Wildshape now. Play that!

Of course, monsters do it as well, which is fine by me. Its the best part of having a monster change shape and escape and the best part of defeating them.

[User3]

Ps, I love how druids drop all their swag when they Wildshape now. Play that!

Um... they don't though. Any equipment the Druid has vanishes and becomes nonfunctional when they wildshape, reappearing on their body when their wildshape ends.

Any equipment they were wearing while in tiger form falls at their feet when they turn back into a human, however.

And of course, any equipment with a Wild Clasp or something equally dumb remains equipped before and after wildshape. So now a Druid can get the best of all worlds, being able to use Wildshape to hide objects or being able to take advantage of Rhino Hide with a tiger's Pounce ability.

-Username17

[User3]

. Um... they don't though. Any equipment the Druid has vanishes and becomes nonfunctional when they wildshape, reappearing on their body when their wildshape ends.

Aaa, pesky. When the errata first came out, it was the other way around, and Andy said on some board that he would fix it.

The man works fast, I'll admit that. Funny how he alway lands on the side of an argument that makes druids better.

[Count Arioch the 28th]

Like every game I've ever played, as a mater of fact.

EQ druids were superior to most people in EQ

WoW druids are so much better than WoW priests in damn near anything that it's a running joke. (Like in D&D, except WoW players tend to be a bit mroe vocal than D&D players.)

Let's just face it that they don't let you become a game designer if you don't pop a nine foot boner when you think about druids.

[RandomCasualty]

1140220596[/unixtime]]
Let's just face it that they don't let you become a game designer if you don't pop a nine foot boner when you think about druids.

I don't even know where this came from either. Since when have we started thinking that treehugging nature boy should be all cool anyway?

I still remember back in 1st and 2nd edition when druids sucked ass. Basically you were like a cleric but you could only wear hide armor, had a weaker spell list and couldn't turn undead. Those were the druids I knew and loved. The ones that totally sucked.

Ever since 3rd edition, the "druids R0x0r j00" paradigm has taken effect and the designers do everything in their power to make them the most gamebreaking class out there.

[Count Arioch the 28th]

I remember my OD&D rules cyclopedia that had druids as being superior to clerics.

You could only use leatehr armor, and you lost all alignment spells, but you gained a lot of really good spells in return. They were pretty brutal.

[User3]

Am I crazy, or are Metamorphosis and Greater "" unaltered by this altercation?

[User3]

1140214794[/unixtime]]

Ps, I love how druids drop all their swag when they Wildshape now. Play that!

Um... they don't though. Any equipment the Druid has vanishes and becomes nonfunctional when they wildshape, reappearing on their body when their wildshape ends.

Any equipment they were wearing while in tiger form falls at their feet when they turn back into a human, however.

And of course, any equipment with a Wild Clasp or something equally dumb remains equipped before and after wildshape. So now a Druid can get the best of all worlds, being able to use Wildshape to hide objects or being able to take advantage of Rhino Hide with a tiger's Pounce ability.

-Username17

Generally speaking, the armor to use is Wild +1 full plate. And let the fucker meld.

Hell, you can wear Wild full plate and rhino hide with a wild clasp.

But as for the HP, the MM errata specifically says that "...the creature retains the hit points of it's orginial form despite any change to its constitution."

The downside: Low-Con druids are back out of vogue.

The upide: Go ahead and poison me, bitch! I don't feel it.

[Username17]

But as for the HP, the MM errata specifically says that "...the creature retains the hit points of it's orginial form despite any change to its constitution."

That was actually the errata to the errata, but other than pointing out what a mess this whole thing is, that's not important. The no HP change from constitution change clause they added still only applies to the change in Consitution from that effect. It won't retroactively stop a previous Con change from having changed your hit points, nor will it prevent a subsequent Con change from doing so. So no Poison immunity, hilarious as that would be.

The thing to note however, is that page 8 of the PHB is completely unaffected by this nonsense, which means that when you finally do get a Con Change, it still recalculates your Con change exactly as if every hit die had been modified by the new Con modifier from the get-go. You can play this to your advantage whether your Con is going up or down from the change if you have an Amulet of Health. If you are transforming into a creature with more Con than you have, drop your amulet on the ground before changing and then put it back on (bears and tigers have amulet slots) and your hit points will adjust to the new doubly modified Constitution. If you are transforming into a creature with less Con than you, keep the amulet on and allow it to meld and become non-functional - your hit points won't be adjusted by having your Con fall!

Similarly, when your Strength goe up by 2 you don't simply ad +1 to the damage of all your melee attacks, you recalculate based on your new strength value. This is actually important because sometimes you'll have hit a Greatsword breakpoint and actually add +2 damage instead. In the basic 3.5 rules, the fact that you do this with Constitution rather than simply adding/subtracting 1 hit point per level wasn't imporatant - but it sure is now.

-Username17

[Fwib]

Which piece of wording on what page exactly spells out that on a stat change, stuff that depends on it is recalculated from the ground up?

I see where it says on page 9 about con changes that 'hp changes accordingly' but that sounds more incremental than rebuild-y

[RandomCasualty]

The con-changes-but-hp-doesn't rule from 3.0 is stupid as hell. Why don't they just bite the bullet and say your con doesn't change. Period. That'd make the most sense and would be easy as hell to implement.

[User3]

1140291350[/unixtime]]Which piece of wording on what page exactly spells out that on a stat change, stuff that depends on it is recalculated from the ground up?

Sorry, I'm up in SF making food for my grandfather's wake, so I don't have my books with me. However, I can tell you the key reasoning:

There is no rule that adding or subtracting 2 points from an attribute changes your modifier by one!

There is an attribute chart, and when you have a different attribute, you are supposed to look at that chart and see what modifiers and bonus spells you are entitled to based on the chart. Most players have a pretty good idea of how the numbers on the chart are generated and just adjust their bonuses on the fly, but that's not the rules! The rules are that a Con of 10 has a +0 modifier and a Con of 15 has a +2 modifier, as depicted in the chart. And any time you have a different attribute, you no longer have your old modifier and now have a new modifier listed on that chart.

In short, the rules are always "all replacey" because the whole idea that you have a modifier of (Attribute/2)-5 is not actually in the PHB. That's a player-derived simplification that is not supported by the RAW.

The con-changes-but-hp-doesn't rule from 3.0 is stupid as hell. Why don't they just bite the bullet and say your con doesn't change. Period. That'd make the most sense and would be easy as hell to implement.

Yes. That they don't do that indicates to me that they actually want Druids to have the best of both worlds all the time in everything they do.

As per the RAW, a Druid with a Con of 11 has a Con Modifier of +0. If he transforms into a Bear with a Con of 16, his hit points do not change. When he looses a point of Con, he now has a Con of 15 and thus has a Con Modifier of +2, leaving him with 2 extra hit points per level.

There's nothing else it could be, because you don't have a "virtual constitution" that would keep track of the fact that your old Con modifier wouldn't have dropped just because you lost a single point of Con. You just changed your Con and didn't readjust your hit points according to the new modifier.

-Username17

[erik]

I've got a good doozie!

Going with Frank's notion that HP recalculate during other con buffs and that HP stays static with Con changes via polymorph/endurance (as the rules seem to stupidly support it).

I introduce more fun with HP recalculating. Do 2+ wildshapes in a row!
First one with the highest Con critter you can find (boar, dire boar, I dunno), then bear's endurance, giving you new HP at the boosted amount. Now do it again.

Just keep "stealing" HP by casting more bear's endurances and wildshaping again. HP total stays the same, con changes. Go crazy nuts!

All of this RAW ridiculousness could have been avoided if Con just didn't change for Alternate Forms.

[Crissa]

1140220596[/unixtime]]WoW druids are so much better than WoW priests in damn near anything that it's a running joke.

Uhhh.... No?

WoW Druids don't get a new stat line, they don't get to use their equipment, don't get their spells...

...And they are not better than Priests in Spell damage or Healing.

Which really begets the quest, why bring them?

-Crissa

Oh, and due to a bug in a bug-fix, Druids in WoW can kill themselves by shifting forms.

[Count Arioch the 28th]

Crissa, WoW druids not getting a new stat line like they do in D&D is irrelevant.

And in fact, they are superior in both spell damage AND healing to WoW priest, but unlike priests they can tank pretty well, (And I can get the FRAPs of druids tanking Molten Core to prove it.) as well as do some decent damage via cat form.

Edit: Granted, they don't nuke as well as mages, they don't tank as well as warriors, and they don't DPS as well as rogues, but the sheer fact that they can do a decent job in all three, as well as match the priest in healing, as well as the fact that Blizzard has nerfed all a priest's otehr abilities to the ground means that I am right. WoW druids are overpowered. Period. end of discussion.

[MrWaeseL]

Edit: Granted, they don't nuke as well as mages, they don't tank as well as warriors, and they don't DPS as well as rogues, but the sheer fact that they can do a decent job in all three, as well as match the priest in healing, as well as the fact that Blizzard has nerfed all a priest's otehr abilities to the ground means that I am right. WoW druids are overpowered. Period. end of discussion.

I don't know WoW, but this sounds like you're talking about the Bard.

[Crissa]

1140431045[/unixtime]]Crissa, WoW druids not getting a new stat line like they do in D&D is irrelevant.

But that was the topic here.

And in fact, they are superior in both spell damage AND healing to WoW priest,
...
WoW druids are overpowered. Period. end of discussion.

This is an example of an ad hominem argument - A circular argument, which defines itself based upon an usupported statement. 'I am an idiot because I am stupid' is an ad hominem arguement (one of my favorites).

Without going too far into WoW details...
[*]Priests regen mana faster (1/20th a mana more per Spirit)
[*]Have faster Healing and Damage spells
[*]Have higher Mana to Effect ratios
[*]Have attack abilities which stack and synergize with other classes
[*]Have more Buff spells
[*]Have a method to reduce both threat and damage
[*]Have a greater number of gear to choose from to do these roles

Druids in WoW, unlike D&D, have no method to use any of the activation, potion, or their spells while in shapeshifted form. Basically, they throw out everything (from weapon bonuses to silly things like enchant bonuses) that other classes get to do, in order to use this other form.

I'm not going to confuse you with more details, but... A Druid that can Tank the Core cannot outheal a priest - they're wearing gear similar to a warrior. WoW is entirely about the equipment one uses - whether you're a Priest or a Warrior, your gear is what matters.

For Frank et al, who don't play WoW - Fighters in D&D have damage that's weapon based for the most part, yes? Well every class in WoW has that 'problem'.

-Crissa

[Count Arioch the 28th]

Mod Edit:Personal Attacks removed

1. First off, the mana regen rate is exactly the same across the board. Druids regen as fast as mages as fast as priests as fast as shamans as fast as paladins as fast as hunters. Second, the mana regerated from spirit during battle is teh same as the mana a warrior regens in battle. NOTHING. Granted, mages and priests do get talents to let them regen mana in combat. 15% of what they would have out of combat.

So, you regen 1 mana per 4 spirit. (Not 100% accurate, but we're going with it.) A caster could reasonably have about 300 spirit with good gear at 60. So, a fully specced priest would regen 11.25 every 4 seconds. That's a fart in a windstorm.

2. This is flat out wrong. One of a druid's healing spells is slower than the equivalent priest spell, the other is faster, and the third is instant cast for both.

3. Again, flat out wrong.

Using the highest level healing spells for each class:

Heal over time:
Priest: 2.4 HP per mana Druid: 2.5 hp per mana

Quick heal:
Priest: 2.2 hp per mana Druid: 2.3 hp per mana

Full heal:
Priest: 2.5 hp per mana Druid: 2.6 hp per mana

So, you're lying here. Good for you!

4. Priest have NO attack abilities. That's the idea, they don't have any. They get a stupid 3 minute self only AC buff. OOOOOH. I honestly have no fucking clue where your'e going.

5. Alright, this you might have a semi-cogent argument with. Priests would have slightly more buffs than a druid. Druid buffs are really great in their own right. Compare a stamina boost (Priests) with a buff that boosts AC, Every stat, and every save? (druids) That's a toss-up. Power word: Sheild is a great buff, but it fvcks with warriors to the point where warriors tend to bitch when it's cast on them. (Some numbnuts at blizz decided that it would nerf a warrior's abilities by reducing their rage generation when shielded. I don't know why.) Really, the rest of a priest's buffs are crap. (A small save bonus to a rare type of damage, and you can spend talent points to give you a boost to the most worthless stat in the fvcking game.)

6. Sure, druids can reduce threat and damage. Druids can reduce damage by shifting into bear form and having more AC than the party tank. Threat reduction is called "Stand ther an let the tank take care of the monster". Anyone can do it.

7. A druid can't use items while in bear form, it's true. However, in woW, those items are largely irrelevant in most cases. 99% of the time, the only item you needed is that potion you drank 15 minutes ago befoer you shifted. You shift ouy to do anything else.

Also, you can change your gear at any time. Also, druids can wear a warrior's gear, which is nonsense. A druid wears leather armor. Not mail or plate. By definition, a druid can't wear warrior gear.

But maybe she meant "rogue gear".

Any character can change their entire gear set almost instantly. Most druids do in fact have two or three gear sets hotkeyed and ready to go at a second's notice. The druid who's tanking MC now can be out-healing the priest within about 15 seconds, give or take. (And less than that if they get a mod that lets them set entire gear sets to one hotkey. That's a grey area in my opinion, but Blizz has said that's an allowable program to use, so it's about the D&D equivalent of a ill-conceived splatbook. Might be overpowered, but we're forced to deal with it anyway.)

[erik]

In D&D related discussion, I think my cheese isn't quite on the mark (tis what I get for posting excitedly with little sleep under my cap).

You can certainly still buff up HP prior to wildshape and keep it as long as wildshape lasts, but using buffed wildshape form and then wildshaping again to keep that HP total is more questionable since the actual errata wording is that you keep the HP of your "original form". "Original form" isn't in the glossary to my knowledge, but it's hard to make the argument that original form is anything other than one's form after wildshape wears off.

[fbmf]

[The Great Fence Builder Speaks]
Let's keep the discussion on D&D Polymorph, folks!
[/TGFBS]