Crafty Bard

[Hey_I_Can_Chan]

This is my entry for Nifty's bard contest. FBMF asked that I cross-post it here for commentary, and when the Great Fence Builder speaks, I post.
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Crafty Bard
Note: The greatest permutation of the d20 system is Spycraft 2.0, and the design methods for the Crafty Bard are taken from that system. That system eschews dead levels, provides solid choices for every character, encourages characters to remain single-classed but doesn't punish them if they don't, and recognizes that a prestige class shouldn't be a power-up but a power-narrow (letting you be better that someone else at a very specific schtick). I encourage everyone to get it. It's awesome.

The Crafty Bard is identical to that presented in the 3.5 Player's Handbook (pp. 26-30) in all cases up to Class Features (p. 28) at which point the following text is inserted. Also ignore Tables 3-4 and 3-5. They are replaced by the tables below. The crafty bard uses exclusively core rules, not drawing from any additional 3.5 sources. It replaces bardic music with better spellcasting and a host of social and skill bonuses to make the bard simultaneously more of a generalist and more useful. This should also, by the way, make the bard more fun to play.

Table 3-4: The Crafty Bard

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[br]Lvl BAB Fort Ref Will Special[br] 1   +0  +0   +2  +2  Bard spells, prestidigitation[br] 2   +1  +0   +3  +3  Entertainer I[br] 3   +2  +1   +3  +3  Bardic knowledge 2/day[br] 4   +3  +1   +4  +4  Bonus feat[br] 5   +3  +1   +4  +4  Special ability[br] 6   +4  +2   +5  +5  Striking +1[br] 7   +5  +2   +5  +5  Bardic knowledge 4/day[br] 8   +6  +2   +6  +6  Bonus feat[br] 9   +6  +3   +6  +6  Special ability, striking +2[br]10   +7  +3   +7  +7  Bardic immunity (Ill/Enc)[br]11   +8  +3   +7  +7  Bardic knowledge 6/day,[br]                      entertainer II[br]12   +9  +4   +8  +8  Bonus feat, striking +3[br]13   +9  +4   +8  +8  Special ability[br]14  +10  +4   +9  +9  Grand performance[br]15  +11  +5   +9  +9  Bardic knowledge 8/day,[br]                      striking +4[br]16  +12  +5  +10 +10  Bonus feat[br]17  +12  +5  +10 +10  Special ability[br]18  +13  +6  +11 +11  Striking +5[br]19  +14  +6  +11 +12  Bardic knowledge 10/day,[br]                      entertainer III[br]20  +15  +6  +12 +12  Bardic immunity (Div/Nec/Trans),[br]                      bonus feat[br]

Class Features
Weapons and Armor Proficiency: The bard is proficient with light armor. The bard is proficient with all simple weapons, any 4 martial weapons, and any 2 exotic weapons. Alternately, at level 1, the bard may choose to be proficient with medium armor or with shields (except the tower shield) instead of one exotic weapon, or proficient with both medium armor and shields (except tower shields) instead of both exotic weapons.

Bard Spells: A bard can spontaneously cast a limited number of spells in a manner identical to a sorcerer except that a bard cannot simultaneously benefit from both the Still Spell and Silent Spell metamagic feats (the bard's spells must always have either a somatic or vocal component) and all bard spells have as their focus the bard's musical instrument. No bard spells have material components--if an expensive material component would be needed, the bard doesn't need it, and instead the bard suffers an amount of Cha damage equal to the material component's value divided by 1,000 gp (round up) after the spell is successfully cast. No bard spells have expensive foci--If an expensive focus would be needed, the bard doesn't need it, and instead the bard suffers an amount of Cha damage equal to the focus's gp value divided by 1,000 gp (round up) after the spell is successfully cast; if this focus would be used to store items (e.g. Leomund's secret chest, trap the soul), the bard's current musical instrument serves as this storage device. Cha damage dealt this way cannot be healed by magical healing.

At level 2 instead of choosing a new 0th-level bard spell known, the bard may choose any 0th-level spell from any spell list as a bard spell known. This spell is permanently added to that bard's list of 0th-level spells known. At levels 7, 9, 11, 13, 15, 17, 18, 19, and 20, the bard may choose a 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th, or 9th level spell, respectively, from any spell list instead of a new bard spell known and this is permanently added to that bard's spell list at the appropriate spell level. A bard may change his spells known as a sorcerer does.

Unlike the sorcerer, a bard wearing light armor can cast his bard spells with no arcane spell failure chance. At level 10, a bard can wear medium armor and cast his bard spells with no arcane spell failure chance. A bard always suffers the standard arcane spell failure chances in heavy armor or while using a shield.

Prestidigitation (Su): At level 1, the bard may use prestidigitation as a supernatural ability at will. His caster level is equal to his character level.

Entertainer I, II, III (Ex): At level 2, when a bard makes a Perform check to impress an audience with his talent and skill (i.e. to make money), he rolls twice and keeps the better result. Further, he earns double the amount he would normally earn. At level 11, he earns four times what he would normally earn, and, if recieving a circumstance bonus from using a masterwork musical instrument during this check, the circumstance bonus provided to the Perform check increases to the bard's Cha bonus (minimum +3). At level 19, the bard rolls thrice and keeps the best result when making a Perform check to make money, and he earns ten times what he would normally earn.

To use the entertainer class feature a bard must spend one day making the Perform check, even if the performance itself only lasts a short while (the remainder of the time is spent rehearsing, scouting locations, choosing and designing costumes, promoting, doing groupies, giving interviews, drinking heavily, taking drugs, and otherwise preparing for the performance). This class feature is language-dependent.

Bardic Knowledge (Ex): At level 3, twice per day, the bard may use his Perform skill bonus for any one ability check or one bard skill check instead of his normal ability bonus or skill bonus. The bard may use this class feature two additional times per day at levels 7, 11, 15, and 19.

Bonus Feat: At level 4, the bard gains a bonus feat from the list of bard bonus feats. The bard must meet this feat's prerequisites. The bard chooses an additional bonus feat from the list of bard bonus feats for which he meets the prerequsites at levels 8, 12, 16, and 20.

Special Ability (Ex): At level 5, the bard chooses one special ability from the list below. Unless noted, no ability may be chosen more than once. The bard selects another special ability at levels 9, 13, and 17.

• Esoteric Knowledge: The bard's travels have taught him things others only dream of knowing. The bard chooses a number of cross-class skills equal to his Int bonus (minimum 2). These skills become bard class skills for the bard.
  
• Groupies: The bard has garnered a following in every city. In any small city or larger community, the bard knows the names and locations of a number of NPCs equal to his Cha bonus (minimum 2) whose disposition toward him is Helpful. The DM may change these NPCs from visit to visit or even day to day (as some leave the area, die, find other performers to worship, etc.), but the number remains constant. These NPCs have NPC class levels equal to half the bard's level. These NPCs will not die for the bard, accompany him on adventures, or give the bard all their worldly possessions, but will otherwise do anything the bard asks if it's within the NPCs' powers. This class feature is language-dependent.
  
• Heckler: The bard is a master of distraction. When an attempt to cast a spell with a vocal component is made within 30 ft. of the bard, he may, as an immediate action, attempt foil the spell. The bard makes a Perform check opposed by the spellcaster's Concentration check. If the bard wins the opposed check, the spellcaster cannot cast that spell this turn (the spellcaster does not lose the spell and may attempt to cast a different spell this turn). If the bard loses the opposed check, the bard becomes flat-footed and cannot use the heckle class feature against that spellcaster for the remainder of the day. This class feature may be used a number of times per day equal to 1/2 the bard's level (rounded up). This class feature is language-dependent.
  
• Mutual Understanding: Even the toughest of audiences intuitively grasp the bard's meaning. All of the bard's bard spells and bard class features with the language-dependent tag lose this tag.
  
• Odd Spectacle: The bard's performances are unusual but still impressive. The skill bonus for any of the bard's skills may be used instead of the bard's Perform skill bonus. This ability may be used a number of times per day equal to the bard's class level.
  
• Renown: The bard has a reputation as a master performer in settled areas. In any small city or larger community, the amount the bard earns from the entertainer class feature is doubled, and the bard may make two checks per day (or one check in half a day). This class feature is language-dependent.
  
• Token of Admiration: People like the bard so much they just give him things. The bard chooses one gift from among a mundane weapon, suit of armor, or shield; one item or service from among all goods and services; or one magic item. The gift may not have a gp value of more than 500 x the bard's level. This gift is added to the bard's equipment list. If the gift is destroyed, expended, lost, or stolen, upon visiting a small city or larger community, the bard may acquire another as long as it has been one week or more since the last gift was acquired. Further, the current gift may exchanged for a different gift of equal or lesser value in any small city or larger community no more than once per week. If the gift is sold, however, another isn't available for one year. This class feature is language-dependent.
  
• Skill Mastery: The bard is a smooth operator, rarely ruffled by distraction. The bard choose a number of bard skills equal to 3+ the bard's Int modifier. The bard may always take 10 on these skills.
  
• Tavern Player: The bard's constant wandering has left him with friends at every inn. The bard and his companions receive free food, drink, lodging, and stabling. This class feature applies to the bard and his mount plus a number of companions and their mounts equal to twice the bard's class level. This class feature is language-dependent.
  
• Winning Smile: The bard can make friends anywhere… anywhere. As a free action, the bard may improve the disposition of any NPC toward him by 1 step closer to Helpful. The bard may use this class feature a number of times per day equal to his Cha bonus (minimum 1), but never more than once per day on the same NPC.

Striking (Ex): The bard is the fairest of them all. At level 6, the bard gains a permanent +1 bonus to his Cha score. He gains an additional +1 bonus to his Cha score at levels 9, 12, 15, and 18.

Bardic Immunity (Ex): The bard's familiarity with manipulation and stagecraft enables him to resist those effects effortlessly. At level 10, the bard gains spell resistance against all spells of the Enchantment and Illusion schools equal to 10 +the bard's level +the bard's Cha modifier. At level 20, the spell resistance extends also to all spells from the Divination, Necromancy, and Transmutation schools. The bard may raise or lower his spell resistance as a free action.

Grand Performance (Su): So compelling are the bard's performances, they border on irresistible. At level 14, once per day as an immediate action the bard may cause one creature who receives a saving throw against one of the bard's spells to automatically roll a 1 on that saving throw.

Table 3-5: Bard Spells Per Day

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[br]Level  0  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9[br]  1st  3  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -[br]  2nd  3  1  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -[br]  3rd  3  2  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -[br]  4th  3  2  1  -  -  -  -  -  -  -[br]  5th  3  2  2  -  -  -  -  -  -  -[br]  6th  3  3  2  1  -  -  -  -  -  -[br]  7th  3  3  2  2  -  -  -  -  -  -[br]  8th  4  3  3  2  1  -  -  -  -  -[br]  9th  4  4  3  2  2  -  -  -  -  -[br] 10th  4  4  3  3  2  1  -  -  -  -[br] 11th  4  4  4  3  2  2  -  -  -  -[br] 12th  4  4  4  3  3  2  1  -  -  -[br] 13th  4  4  4  4  3  2  2  -  -  -[br] 14th  4  4  4  4  3  3  2  1  -  -[br] 15th  4  4  4  4  4  3  2  2  -  -[br] 16th  4  4  4  4  4  3  3  2  1  -[br] 17th  4  4  4  4  4  4  3  2  2  -[br] 18th  4  4  4  4  4  4  3  3  2  1[br] 19th  4  4  4  4  4  4  4  4  3  2[br] 20th  4  4  4  4  4  4  4  4  3  3[br]

Table 3-5-1: Bard Spells Known

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[br]Level  0  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9[br]  1st  2  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -[br]  2nd  3* 1  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -[br]  3rd  3  2  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -[br]  4th  3  2  1  -  -  -  -  -  -  -[br]  5th  3  2  2  -  -  -  -  -  -  -[br]  6th  4  2  2  1  -  -  -  -  -  -[br]  7th  4  3* 2  2  -  -  -  -  -  -[br]  8th  4  3  2  2  1  -  -  -  -  -[br]  9th  4  3  3* 2  2  -  -  -  -  -[br] 10th  4  3  3  2  2  1  -  -  -  -[br] 11th  4  4  3  3* 2  2  -  -  -  -[br] 12th  4  4  3  3  2  2  1  -  -  -[br] 13th  4  4  4  3  3* 2  2  -  -  -[br] 14th  4  4  4  3  3  2  2  1  -  -[br] 15th  4  4  4  4  3  3* 2  2  -  -[br] 16th  4  4  4  4  3  3  2  2  1  -[br] 17th  4  4  4  4  4  3  3* 2  2  -[br] 18th  4  4  4  4  4  3  3  3* 2  1[br] 19th  4  4  4  4  4  3  3  3  3* 2[br] 20th  4  4  4  4  4  3  3  3  3  3*[br]

Bard Spells

• 0th: calm animals, command, dancing lights, detect magic, detect poison, doom, faerie fire, ghost sound, know direction, light, lullaby, mage hand, magic mouth, meding, message, open/close, resistance, summon instrument, unseen servant, ventrioquism.
  
• 1st: alarm, animate rope, bless, cause fear, charm animals, charm person, comprehend languages, detect secret doors, disguise self, erase, expeditious retreat, goodberry, grease, hypnotism, identify, jump, lesser confusion, obscuring mist, remove fear, sanctuary, shield, silent image, sleep, speak with animals, summon monster I.
  
• 2nd: aid, alter self, animal messenger, blindness/deafness, blur, calm emotions, cure light wounds, daze monster, eagle's splendor, glitterdust, hold person, hypnotic pattern, invisibility, levitate, locate object, make whole, minor image, mirror image, pyrotechnics, rage, remove paralysis, rope trick, scare, shatter, silence, sound burst, speak with animals, summon monster II, Tasha's hideous laughter, whispering wind.
  
• 3rd: blink, clairaudience/clairvoyance, confusion, cure moderate wounds, deep slumber, discern lies, dispel magic, displacement, fear, fly, glibness, good hope, haste, heroism, hold person, illusory script, imbue with spell ability, major image, prayer, sculpt sound, secret page, slow, suggestion, summon monster III, tongues.
  
• 4th: bestow curse, charm monster, crushing despair, cure serious wounds, dimension door, freedom of movement, greater invisibility, hallucinatory terrain, illusory wall, legend lore, lesser geas, locate creature, minor creation, modify memory, polymorph, rainbow pattern, scrying, sending, shout, summon monster IV.
  
• 5th: break enchantment, cure critical wounds, dominate person, dream, false vision, feeblemind, greater command, hold monster, lesser planar binding, major creation, mind fog, mirage arcana, nightmare, persistent image, prying eyes, Rary's telepathic bond, seeming, shadow evocation, summon monster V, true seeing.
  
• 6th: analyze dweomer, animate objects, eyebite, geas/quest, greater dispel magic, greater heroism, guards and wards, heroes' feast, legend lore, mass cure light wounds, mass eagle's splendor, mass suggestion, permanent image, planar binding, programmed image, repulsion, righteous might, stone tell, summon monster VI, veil.
  
• 7th: find the path, greater scrying, greater shadow conjuration, insanity, limited wish, mass cure moderate wounds, mass hold person, plane shift, power word blind, project image, summon monster VII, sympathetic vibration, vision, word of chaos, word of recall.
  
• 8th: cloak of chaos, discern location, earthquake, greater prying eyes, greater shadow evocation, greater shout, mass charm monster, mass cure serious wounds, mind blank, Otto's irresistible dance, polymorph any object, power word stun, regenerate, scintillating pattern, screen, summon monster VIII.
  
• 9th: foresight, freedom, gate, mass cure critical wounds, mass hold monster, Mordenkainen's disjunction, power word kill, shades, storm of vengeance, summon monster IX.

Bard Bonus Feats
Note: Most core rules feats are awful. You'll want to beef up this list with whatever splat books' feats you think are appropriate. Bard bonus feats should focus on skills, flashy combat maneuvers, unusual metamagic techniques, and bizarre item creation. All feats that're semi-magical, extremely flashy, or downright odd you should probably consider making bard bonus feats.

Acrobatic, Agile, Alertness, Animal Affinity, Augment Summoning, Combat Expertise, Combat Reflexes, Craft Wondrous Item, Deceitful, Deflect Arrows, Deft Hands, Dodge, Extend Spell, Greater Spell Focus, Improved Disarm, Improved Feint, Improved Initiative, Improved Unarmed Strike, Investigator, Leadership, Lightning Reflexes, Magical Aptitude, Mobility, Negotiator, Nimble Fingers, Persuasive, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Quick Draw, Scribe Scroll, Skill Focus, Spell Focus, Spring Attack, Stealthy, Weapon Finesse.

[fbmf]

Thanks for cross-posting, Chan.

Why no (traditional-style) bardic knowledge?

Game On,
fbmf

[Hey_I_Can_Chan]

Why no (traditional-style) bardic knowledge?

A couple of reasons, really.

• Traditional bardic knowledge is entirely DM-dependent. Your DM, in theory, has to wonder when characters are already going to make Knowledge checks and plan to give them that information. This means he has to prepare one extra table o' info just because you sit down at the table with your bard. Like you want to give the DM a perfectly valid reason to hate your character…? No, thanks.
  
• Traditional bardic knowledge represents a class feature that is basically this:
  
  

  Know Random Crap: Roll 1d20 +your bard level +your Int modifier any time you want to see if you know random crap about anything. If your result is high enough, the DM may say you know some random crap about that thing.

  
  
  That's an absurd ability. That ability is called skill points. If you want to know random crap, you spread around your skill points. Unfortunately, if you do that, you suck. My version of bardic knowledge lets the bard A) put his skill points where he wants them, and B) not suck.
  
• Traditional bardic knowledge is passive. You really can't do anything with it. You get to make no choices (why not use your bardic knowledge on everything all the damn time?). My version of bardic knowledge lets you make choices and have them be important. You can say crap like, "Oh, we are tied up, but worry not, friends, my rope is manufactured by the kobolds of Bloodfink Mountain and every two feet of has a very specific weakness to just the right amount of pressure," and then substitute your Perform bonus for your Escape Artist bonus. I am always a bigger fan of active abilities over passive abilities, especially as a DM.

Note that my version of bardic knowledge only applies to ability checks and--very specifically--bard skill checks. However, there's some synergy with the esoteric knowledge special ability in that that special ability turns cross-class skills into bard skills, so even if you're an Int 8 crafty bard (which is stupid both ways), you can do crazy stuff because of the interaction between a high Perform bonus, the bardic knowledge class feature, and the esoteric knowledge special ability.

[dbb]

My first impression is that this is an extremely flexible and powerful class that is superior to just about all of the base core classes, with the exception of the Big Three; and it will be at least competitive against those.

The basic chassis is similar to the cleric or druid, with a better weapon selection but inferior hit dice. In theory, it also has worse armor protection, but in practice both the cleric and the bard are going to be wearing Mithril Full Plate after 10th level; up until that point the cleric enjoys a modest armor advantage (depending on how long it takes the bard to find a mithril breastplate).

The ability to get free Spiked Chain proficiency in a class with Polymorph on its spell list and good synergy with the attribute prereqs for Improved Trip is a nice bonus, also.

The material component rules are a little wacky in that a point of unhealable Cha damage seems like a lot to pay for a 5gp material component, but material components are a dumb idea anyway. I do give you credit for attempting to balance expensive material components in a way that actually affects the character within the current combat; a bard who pulls out a Force Cage on the first round is meaningfully handicapped for the rest of the fight, assuming that isn't the end of the fight right there. I'd make it 2 points per 1,000 or fraction, though, just so there's never a point where you can toss off a spell and shrug off the loss because you were on an odd number anyway.

The ability to choose spells off any list will get increasingly more potent the more "alternate caster" PrCs a DM allows in his campaign. As it is, this handily allows the bard to cherry-pick the really awesome spells from the other primary caster lists, which is non-trivial -- we can now have a character with Mithril Full Plate, free proficiency in the Greatbow, and Polymorph, Divine Power, and Divine Favor!

I'm not sure permitting the use of a skill bonus in place of an ability bonus is a good idea. Among other things, this makes it even easier to abuse the living daylights out of Planar Binding, not that we really needed that. It might be better to permit the Bard to use his Cha bonus instead of any other ability bonus, or his Perform skill bonus instead of any other skill bonus, rather than letting the two mix like that. As an aside, is "bard skill check" meant to imply that this only works for bard class skills?

The "Heckler" special ability is pretty sweet, as it allows the bard to use his central skill and his primary attribute bonus against any other spellcaster's secondary attribute bonus. Especially in games with a low point buy, that's going to be a win for the bard pretty much all the time as soon as he gets enough money to buy a skill bonus item. Since it doesn't require use of a standard action, doesn't use up a spell slot, and doesn't require the same spell or even a spell from the same school to be handy, that pretty much dresses up Counterspelling in a clown suit and makes fun of it until it cries.

Mutual Understanding is fine as far as it goes, but as long as you were adding this kind of stuff, why not an ability that lets Mind-Affecting spells work against Undead or Constructs?

Winning Smile is pretty grotesque, as it is apparently completely unresistable and has no chance of failure, meaning that it just became easier than ever to annoy the crap out of DMs by fast-Diplomacizing all the encounters into friendliness. The existing diplomacy mechanics are already terrible, so you can imagine my enthusiasm about abusing them this way.

Permanent unnamed bonus to his casting attribute? That seems like the kind of thing that makes just as much sense for every other class in its chosen area of specialization ("The Wizard is the smartest of them all", etc.).

The bardic spell resistance ability, at high level, applies to nearly every spell you care about being hit with and is extremely strong -- when combined with the Striking ability, we're looking at SR 45 and higher by 20th level. Even a cleric with a Bead of Karma would be mildly impressed by that.

Auto-fail enemy saving throws: Yes, I know a 1 isn't an automatic failure, but really -- let's be serious. This basically amounts to "you automatically win one encounter a day", and, taken to its extreme by a party with good planning, essentially means that no encounter ever lasts beyond the bard's first action. The cleric and the druid just started to look a little uneasy.

The spell list has pretty much all of the actually good spells you'd want to take and none of the crap like Fireball and Magic Missile, so from that perspective, it's all good. You'll need to burn one of your "learn a spell from any list" slots to learn Shapechange, but you can, so no problem. It's still a Sorcerer-style caster, though.

I'll have to think in more depth about this before I know for sure exactly how I feel, but it's certainly worth taking 20 levels of, so in that sense, it's a success.

--d.

[Hey_I_Can_Chan]

That's a really solid assessment. Let me address this as best I can…

My first impression is that this is an extremely flexible and powerful class that is superior to just about all of the base core classes, with the exception of the Big Three; and it will be at least competitive against those.

It was suppose to be. My baseline was the Big Three of Clr, Drd, and Wiz. This was supposed to be a competitive choice when stacked against them. No game should provide bad choices.

The basic chassis is similar to the cleric or druid, with a better weapon selection but inferior hit dice. In theory, it also has worse armor protection, but in practice both the cleric and the bard are going to be wearing Mithril Full Plate after 10th level; up until that point the cleric enjoys a modest armor advantage (depending on how long it takes the bard to find a mithril breastplate).

Again, I don't see this as a problem. Is it one?

The ability to get free Spiked Chain proficiency in a class with Polymorph on its spell list and good synergy with the attribute prereqs for Improved Trip is a nice bonus, also.

I don't mind that either. My assumption was that nobody actually uses the polymorph spell as written (or, at least, as written for very long), so the potential abusiveness of this is limited. Remember, also, polymorph's a level later for the crafty bard… and it ain't no wild shape.

The material component rules are a little wacky in that a point of unhealable Cha damage seems like a lot to pay for a 5gp material component, but material components are a dumb idea anyway. I do give you credit for attempting to balance expensive material components in a way that actually affects the character within the current combat; a bard who pulls out a Force Cage on the first round is meaningfully handicapped for the rest of the fight, assuming that isn't the end of the fight right there. I'd make it 2 points per 1,000 or fraction, though, just so there's never a point where you can toss off a spell and shrug off the loss because you were on an odd number anyway.

Hit point loss is a bad mechanic. XP loss is a crappy mechanic. Aging is worse than both. And I believe that a high gp cost is worse than all put together.

I don't know if I like the increase to 2 points per 1K gps. Thing is, under that system, even if you toss off that last spell that reduces your Cha from 12 to 10, you're at 11 tomorrow, so you remain, technically, unbalanced. It still requires thought. Also, although you can burn off your own Cha, items'll keep you up but not functional.

The ability to choose spells off any list will get increasingly more potent the more "alternate caster" PrCs a DM allows in his campaign. As it is, this handily allows the bard to cherry-pick the really awesome spells from the other primary caster lists, which is non-trivial -- we can now have a character with Mithril Full Plate, free proficiency in the Greatbow, and Polymorph, Divine Power, and Divine Favor!

The bard can get the divine favor spell at 7th level and divine power at 13th. Since these are available for the cleric at levels 1 and 7, respectively, I don't think this is out of control. I mean, if you wanted those spells so badly before, you could've just gotten a cleric cohort.

And free greatbow proficiency? Pff…

I'm not sure permitting the use of a skill bonus in place of an ability bonus is a good idea. Among other things, this makes it even easier to abuse the living daylights out of Planar Binding, not that we really needed that. It might be better to permit the Bard to use his Cha bonus instead of any other ability bonus, or his Perform skill bonus instead of any other skill bonus, rather than letting the two mix like that. As an aside, is "bard skill check" meant to imply that this only works for bard class skills?

I was trying to figure out how to abuse it, but if Diplomacy's the worst that can be done, the bard could do that anyway. Further, I was trying to figure how ability checks might be unbalanced--I like the idea of the bard being able to trip somebody like a madman or grapple the heck out of him because he's singing like a madman the whole time. That's visually cool and mechanically interesting. If you've other concerns besides Diplomacy, I'd love to hear 'em.

The "Heckler" special ability is pretty sweet, as it allows the bard to use his central skill and his primary attribute bonus against any other spellcaster's secondary attribute bonus. Especially in games with a low point buy, that's going to be a win for the bard pretty much all the time as soon as he gets enough money to buy a skill bonus item. Since it doesn't require use of a standard action, doesn't use up a spell slot, and doesn't require the same spell or even a spell from the same school to be handy, that pretty much dresses up Counterspelling in a clown suit and makes fun of it until it cries.

Sort of. Nobody expends any spells when heckled, so in that sense, it's only delaying. It's supposed to be the bardic answer to counterspelling, because counterspelling, largely, blows goats.

Mutual Understanding is fine as far as it goes, but as long as you were adding this kind of stuff, why not an ability that lets Mind-Affecting spells work against Undead or Constructs?

That's a good idea. It'd have to be a separate special ability, though.

Winning Smile is pretty grotesque, as it is apparently completely unresistable and has no chance of failure, meaning that it just became easier than ever to annoy the crap out of DMs by fast-Diplomacizing all the encounters into friendliness. The existing diplomacy mechanics are already terrible, so you can imagine my enthusiasm about abusing them this way.

It's only a one level shift and only affects the attitude toward the bard not the party. It's also only one NPC and limited in uses by the crafty bard's Cha modifier. It shouldn't rip things apart anymore than they already are. If you're going that way, it's a power-up, but if you pick anything that applies to your alread broken schtick, it's a power-up.

Permanent unnamed bonus to his casting attribute? That seems like the kind of thing that makes just as much sense for every other class in its chosen area of specialization ("The Wizard is the smartest of them all", etc.).

I agree. And it should be there. Staying a cleric should make you wiser. Staying a wizard should make you smarter. Staying sorcerer and druid should do something different, however, for flavor purposes.

The bardic spell resistance ability, at high level, applies to nearly every spell you care about being hit with and is extremely strong -- when combined with the Striking ability, we're looking at SR 45 and higher by 20th level. Even a cleric with a Bead of Karma would be mildly impressed by that.

Good. Spell resistance that's meaningful was the goal.

Auto-fail enemy saving throws: Yes, I know a 1 isn't an automatic failure, but really -- let's be serious. This basically amounts to "you automatically win one encounter a day", and, taken to its extreme by a party with good planning, essentially means that no encounter ever lasts beyond the bard's first action. The cleric and the druid just started to look a little uneasy.

Good. There should be a reason not to tangle with the high level bard. Grand performance is that reason. Remember, again, it's only one creature's saving throw. And spell resistance still applies.

The spell list has pretty much all of the actually good spells you'd want to take and none of the crap like Fireball and Magic Missile, so from that perspective, it's all good. You'll need to burn one of your "learn a spell from any list" slots to learn Shapechange, but you can, so no problem. It's still a Sorcerer-style caster, though.

And you can only do that at 20th level. I'm good with that. And it's not all the good spells. Remember, we're not dealing the Compendium or any splatbooks. In a perfect world, most spellcasters would have a similar ability and not just get all new spells in this book or whatever as a class feature. That's one of things that sinks games. Besides, you mentioned two missing good spells a few 'graphs ago.

I'll have to think in more depth about this before I know for sure exactly how I feel, but it's certainly worth taking 20 levels of, so in that sense, it's a success.

I look forward to more commentary. I was hoping it would look like a success, at least.

[dbb]

1145292148[/unixtime]]
Again, I don't see this as a problem. Is it one?

No. A lot of the stuff I mentioned was not "problematic" so much as just "significant" or even "interesting to comment on". Since Wizards can wear Full Plate anyway through various contortions if they really want to, giving the bard the ability to do so is not going to unbalance anybody.

I don't know if I like the increase to 2 points per 1K gps. Thing is, under that system, even if you toss off that last spell that reduces your Cha from 12 to 10, you're at 11 tomorrow, so you remain, technically, unbalanced.

That's a good point. You could make up a new mechanic where you just lose one point off the bonus -- that way you can't material component yourself into a coma even if you forgot all your equipment -- and then gain it back one day at a time, but ugh, more new mechanics.

The bard can get the divine favor spell at 7th level and divine power at 13th.

It's better for characters who are pre-built than for characters who are organic, certainly.

I was trying to figure out how to abuse it, but if Diplomacy's the worst that can be done, the bard could do that anyway.

I'll look some stuff up when I have more time -- it's possible I'm overreacting.

If you're going that way, it's a power-up, but if you pick anything that applies to your alread broken schtick, it's a power-up.

This is certainly true -- I just don't think we need to be encouraging any more people to play "Joe".

Spell resistance that's meaningful was the goal.

Meaningful is good, but I think this is a little too high, as written. Remember, you essentially need a caster level of 25 to even have a chance at affecting a 20th level bard with spells that aren't the suck (i.e., not evocation). You'd need a 35th level caster to be even 50/50. Granted, my objections would be muted if it weren't for the expansion of the ability at level 20, so it's not going to kill you before that -- at levels 10-19 it's a lot like just being an intelligent Undead.

Remember, again, it's only one creature's saving throw. And spell resistance still applies.

Horde monsters just don't happen in 3.X, so the limitation of "one creature" is much less meaningful. It's practically guaranteed that this ability will reduce the opposing force by 25%, and the odds are excellent that it'll reduce them by 33% or higher. That's enough to transform most encounters from "challenging" to "win".

Ultimately, however, I just don't like abilities that don't involve rolling dice.

And it's not all the good spells. Remember, we're not dealing the Compendium or any splatbooks.

It definitely increases in power the more stuff you allow, though I think it remains quite strong even with core. And, of course, the cleric and druid are much the same.

--d.

[Username17]

Cha damage dealt this way cannot be healed by magical healing.

That is a mechanic that is bad. If you aren't willing to have your ability damage treated like ability damage, you shouldn't have it be called ability damage. The fact is that Ability Damage is healable between combats and even reducable to zero by taking the proper precautions. You could have it be a Charisma penalty that goes away when the Bard gets some sleep.

Call it performance fatigue or something.

At levels 7, 9, 11, 13, 15, 17, 18, 19, and 20, the bard may choose a 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th, or 9th level spell, respectively, from any spell list instead of a new bard spell known and this is permanently added to that bard's spell list at the appropriate spell level.

You should specify some specific lists they can choose off of. There are some bullshit spell lists out there. The Demonologist, for example, is pretty balanced within its own context, but it gets only low level spells and all the spells on its spell list are themselves low level. Planar Binding as a fourth level spell, for example. That's fine for a Demonologist, but I'm not sure that's what you intend for the Bard.

I would suggest giving them the extra spells at a lower level and requiring that they come off of real spell lists - Wizard, Cleric, Druid.

Unlike the sorcerer, a bard wearing light armor can cast his bard spells with no arcane spell failure chance. At level 10, a bard can wear medium armor and cast his bard spells with no arcane spell failure chance.

I didn't know Sorcerers could cast Bard spells at all. On a more serious note, this is crap. Bards have to give up proficiency in the Elven Double Bow at first level to get access to Medium Armor proficiency at level 1, and it completely sucks for them until level 10. Also you didn't mention shields at all. With modular armor proficiency like that, you need to rephrase it as:

"The bard suffers no arcane spell failure chance from any armor or shields he is proficient with."

That should be the rule for everyone, but it's really important that this be the rule for the bard as you've set him up.

At level 3, twice per day, the bard may use his Perform skill bonus for any one ability check or one bard skill check instead of his normal ability bonus or skill bonus. The bard may use this class feature two additional times per day at levels 7, 11, 15, and 19.

Uh... you do realize that Craft (Scrimshaw) is rolled only once per week, right? I thought we'd already established with the Anything Goes Martial Arts Blacksmith that the ability to replace skill checks with other skill checks was 1. Broken and 2. Stupid.

the circumstance bonus provided to the Perform check increases to the bard's Cha bonus (minimum +3).

You've got this mechanic in there several times, and I don't like it. If you're going to have a non-1 minimum, you probably shouldn't even have it float by attribute bonuses at all. It's not important for the Entertainer ability, because frankly the only time characters spend time singing on the street for copper pieces is when they are Living Greyhawk characters. And I don't give a crap what happens to them.

The bard's travels have taught him things others only dream of knowing. The bard chooses a number of cross-class skills equal to his Int bonus (minimum 2). These skills become bard class skills for the bard.

Um... OK. Of course, gaining additional class skills late in life is generally almost completely meaningless. But whatever.

The bard has garnered a following in every city. In any small city or larger community, the bard knows the names and locations of a number of NPCs equal to his Cha bonus (minimum 2) whose disposition toward him is Helpful. The DM may change these NPCs from visit to visit or even day to day (as some leave the area, die, find other performers to worship, etc.), but the number remains constant. These NPCs have NPC class levels equal to half the bard's level. These NPCs will not die for the bard, accompany him on adventures, or give the bard all their worldly possessions, but will otherwise do anything the bard asks if it's within the NPCs' powers. This class feature is language-dependent.

No. For one thing, being a language dependent ability means absolutely nothing in this case, because a language dependent ability means that it only works on creatures that can understand you, and this ability creates NPCs that adore you (so it doesn't have any targets, only effects).

Secondly, in almost any occassion where this would be really useful, it would also be extreme inane. You'd only be really glad you had it if you were in Menzo-Berazan or whatever, and then it would retarded to have it work. This ability is extremely destructive to almost any campaign and really dumb. I wish I had extra arms so I could give this ability four thumbs down.

Heckler:

Holy crap! There are like, bonuses to be had for Perform. Huge ones. Noone would get a spell off again, and it doesn't cost the Bard an action to use (even the penlty for failure is pretty minor - and totally bizare, since it apparently retroactively makes you not have acted in the combat you are in until your initiative comes up again).

Token of Admiration:

Again no. Having things show up in your pocket isn't language dependent. It can't be language dependent. It's definitional thing. Most equipment doesn't even have a language.

Skill Mastery:

So Bards get to take 10 on UMD at level 5? Good for them I guess. Makes them the Wand Masters (since they'll have 8 ranks at level 5 and a Charisma modifier of +2 or higher, they'll be able to activate any wand they ever find from then on).

Winning Smile:

That makes a diplomancer very powerful, since it can be used before making a Diplomancy check.

So compelling are the bard's performances, they border on irresistible. At level 14, once per day as an immediate action the bard may cause one creature who receives a saving throw against one of the bard's spells to automatically roll a 1 on that saving throw.

Are you fvcking nuts? The Bard already has Save or Die spells, this ability is "Once per day you can automatically kill an opponent with no die roll or possibility of escape as a standard action" What the hell were you even thinking?

-Username17

Fixed Quote Tags - fbmf

[Hey_I_Can_Chan]

Frank's first-- 'cause they're more explosive.

That is a mechanic that is bad. If you aren't willing to have your ability damage treated like ability damage, you shouldn't have it be called ability damage. The fact is that Ability Damage is healable between combats and even reducable to zero by taking the proper precautions. You could have it be a Charisma penalty that goes away when the Bard gets some sleep.

Okay. We're talking about naming accuracy. I'm good with that. I like the idea of a Cha penalty that heals better than ability damage because that creates its own independent mechanic.

You should specify some specific lists they can choose off of. There are some bullshit spell lists out there. The Demonologist, for example, is pretty balanced within its own context, but it gets only low level spells and all the spells on its spell list are themselves low level. Planar Binding as a fourth level spell, for example. That's fine for a Demonologist, but I'm not sure that's what you intend for the Bard.

I figured as much. But I'm looking at remodeling a core rules class while looking only at the core rules. What spell lists the DM introduces into his campaign is up to him, not me.

I don't mind limiting it to a set of lists, but the goal was for the bard to pick up X obscure spell, and that's tough to manage with a set list… except insofar as splatbooks add spells to those lists, which we all know--especially with regards to clerics and druids--is a bad idea, anyway.

On a more serious note, this is crap. Bards have to give up proficiency in the Elven Double Bow at first level to get access to Medium Armor proficiency at level 1, and it completely sucks for them until level 10. Also you didn't mention shields at all.

Dude, I don't even know what the elven double bow is, so I don't know if that's a factor or not. And, yeah, a bard can give that up for medium armor proficiency at level 1... to plan ahead and not have to take it at level 9 or 12. Also, I really did say:

A bard always suffers the standard arcane spell failure chances in heavy armor or while using a shield.

…'Cause I figured it's a bit difficult to cast spells using your focus--a musical intrument--in one hand. I guess I could exempt bucklers…

Uh... you do realize that Craft (Scrimshaw) is rolled only once per week, right? I thought we'd already established with the Anything Goes Martial Arts Blacksmith that the ability to replace skill checks with other skill checks was 1. Broken and 2. Stupid.

Link? I must've missed that thread. But--and I know this probably answered in the thread proper--if the check's only made once per week, then what difference does it make that this can be done multiple times per day?

You've got this mechanic in there several times, and I don't like it. If you're going to have a non-1 minimum, you probably shouldn't even have it float by attribute bonuses at all.

You mean like the rogue's skill mastery? If a flat number plus a bonus is preferred, I'm okay with that, but that can lead to clumsiness issues ("So my cleric with 8 Cha can only turn undead twice per day?"). I think there should be a minimum for most things otherwise the class feature becomes crap. This way an ill-prepared character can use it and still benefit from it… just not as much as prepared character. It keeps the choice a viable option--perhaps not the best one, but an option.

Um... OK. Of course, gaining additional class skills late in life is generally almost completely meaningless. But whatever.

It's to provide more functionality to the crafty bard's bardic knowledge (but you already dismissed that).

Secondly, in almost any occassion where this would be really useful, it would also be extreme inane. You'd only be really glad you had it if you were in Menzo-Berazan or whatever, and then it would retarded to have it work. This ability is extremely destructive to almost any campaign and really dumb. I wish I had extra arms so I could give this ability four thumbs down.

I understand your issue with the language-dependent tag. Again, this is shorthand. Rather than having to write, "This ability functions only in communities where the bard can communicate continuously with the majority of residents," I used the language-dependent tag. I can change that; that's easy.

Why would it be retarded to have it work in a drow city? And, more importantly, why would it be useless in any other city? As a DM, it gives you more fun NPCs, and as a player it gives you more contacts. Further, how cool would it be to have the bard walk into a drow city--in disguise--and a drow aristocrat with his magic mouth boom box playing the bard's latest hit? C'mon. That's awesome.

Holy crap! There are like, bonuses to be had for Perform. Huge ones. Noone would get a spell off again, and it doesn't cost the Bard an action to use (even the penlty for failure is pretty minor - and totally bizare, since it apparently retroactively makes you not have acted in the combat you are in until your initiative comes up again).

Are there huge bonuses to the Perform skill in core? And, really, it would just force the wizard to cycle through his spell list until the bard ran out of uses per day; next round, the wizard's blazing away as normal. And, yeah, the flat-footed thing might seem off, but you are put at a combat disadvantage if the shmoe doesn't fall for it. I don't want the bard prone because of it… a better suggestion?

Are you fvcking nuts? The Bard already has Save or Die spells, this ability is "Once per day you can automatically kill an opponent with no die roll or possibility of escape as a standard action" What the hell were you even thinking?

A lot, actually. There are more conditionals than that. There's no surprise round on the bad guys' side. The bard wins initiative. There are no illusions or projected images mucking up the battlefield for the baddies. There's a clear line of sight to the baddie. The bard picks the correct target. The bard overcomes the baddie's spell resistance. The baddie has no wacky contingency.

There's more to winning than one failed saving throw.

…But it sure make you want to stay in the crafty bard class, huh?

Thanks again. I'll fix the Cha penalty thing and the language-dependent thing. I should keep my game mechanics accurate.

[Hey_I_Can_Chan]

Meaningful is good, but I think this is a little too high, as written. Remember, you essentially need a caster level of 25 to even have a chance at affecting a 20th level bard with spells that aren't the suck (i.e., not evocation). You'd need a 35th level caster to be even 50/50. Granted, my objections would be muted if it weren't for the expansion of the ability at level 20, so it's not going to kill you before that -- at levels 10-19 it's a lot like just being an intelligent Undead.

Would Divination and either Enchantment or Illusion at level 10 be less painful? Then the bard can add the other one at level 20?

Horde monsters just don't happen in 3.X, so the limitation of "one creature" is much less meaningful. It's practically guaranteed that this ability will reduce the opposing force by 25%, and the odds are excellent that it'll reduce them by 33% or higher. That's enough to transform most encounters from "challenging" to "win".

I'm going through Dungeon magazines #130-4 now, in reverse order, through their highest level adventures presented…

• "Into the Wormcrawl Fissure": Kyuss' Maw (EL 19)--4 creatures.
  
• "Into the Wormcrawl Fissure": Zulshyn's Tower (EL 21)--5 creatures.
  
• "Into the Wormcrawl Fissure": The Spurned Lich (EL 22)--4 creatures.
  
• "Into the Wormcrawl Fissure": Approaching the Tabernacle (EL 20)--2 creatures.
  
• "Into the Wormcrawl Fissure": Temple of the Worm (EL 20)--6 creatures.
  
• "King of the Rift": Round House (EL 18)--7 creatures.
  
• "King of the Rift": Bridgehead (EL 17 or 18)--2 creatures.
  
• "King of the Rift": Guardians of the Heart (EL 19)--2 creatures.
  
• "The Library of Last Resort": Shipwreck Beach (EL 17)--9 creatures.
  
• "The Library of Last Resort": First Trial (EL 22)--16 (!) creatures.
  
• "The Library of Last Resort": Hand of the Lich-lord (EL 20)--4 creatures.
  
• "The Library of Last Resort": The Fountain of Dreams--22-4 creatures.
  
• "The Prince of Redhand": The Traitors' Graves (EL 14)--4 creatures.
  
• "The Spire of Long Shadows": Danger on the Road (EL 14)--6 creatures.
  
• "The Spire of Long Shadows": The Ziggurat of Kyuss (EL 14)--3 creatures.
  
• "The Spire of Long Shadows": Halls of Corruption (EL 15)--3 creatures.
  
• "The Spire of Long Shadows": Halls of Knowledge (EL 14)--4 creatures.
  
• "The Spire of Long Shadows": The Writhing Chamber (EL 15)--6 creatures.
  
• "The Spire of Long Shadows": The Temple of the Fountain (EL 14)--3 creatures.
  
• "The Spire of Long Shadows": Sea of Worms (EL 16)--2 creatures.
  
• "The Spire of Long Shadows": Knights of the Worm (EL 16)--3 creatures.

So, yeah, a literal horde of creatures is rare. But getting more than one creature isn't. A lot of the boss monsters in these adventures are--surprisingly, stupidly--alone, but you had to have gotten to them before you've used the grand performance class feature, and that will be difficult thing to resist, especially while staring at the winning smile special ability on your character sheet and thinking Crap!

I know that it might seem cheesy to retreat to Dungeon for adventure examples… if that's not the case, where should I go for a reference?

[dbb]

1145301162[/unixtime]]
Would Divination and either Enchantment or Illusion at level 10 be less painful? Then the bard can add the other one at level 20?

Spell Resistance versus Divination honestly kind of sucks, to the point where you could give it out at first level and nobody would much care ... but it seems likely that that's the point here, so, yes, it'd be a lot less painful to give out nigh-invulnerable SR versus one significant school and one useless school at level 10, and then another significant school at level 20.

So, yeah, a literal horde of creatures is rare. But getting more than one creature isn't.

Well, when in doubt, I always retreat to the EL/CR mechanics -- which of course are broken, but let's for the moment pretend they work. Whenever you kill one creature in a multiple-monster encounter, you drop the EL by one. If the EL was equal to the party level -- and half the things you ever encounter will be, if you follow the DMG guidelines -- it's dropped down to "easy". So, while it won't be an automatic win in every possible encounter, when it doesn't, there is a better than 80% chance that it'll make victory a near certainty (remember, EL < party level is "easy").

You might feel that that's too many conditionals to be worth worrying about. I don't like it, though.

The other problem is that "once a day" abilities can't be reasonably extended to "once an adventure". In some adventures, that's how it works out -- you've got twelve hours to rescue the princess, and no more. In other adventures, the party can just go sleep in a rope trick between every encounter. And automatically killing one member of the opposition is damned convincing argument for doing just that.

For every campaign like "24" where the entire game from start to finish takes place in one day and therefore a "once per day" ability is usable once ever (which sucks), there's a campaign where the PCs are under no particular time pressure and therefore a "once per day" ability is usable once per combat (which rocks). That's why I don't consider it a good argument that something is balanced if it's only usable once per arbitrary time period.

--d.

[Username17]

I figured as much. But I'm looking at remodeling a core rules class while looking only at the core rules. What spell lists the DM introduces into his campaign is up to him, not me.

The problem with this whole line of reasoning is that people who get a Sorcerer/Wizard spell get Planar Binding at 6th level, and people who get a Demonologist spell get it at 4th level. Therefore: Dumpster Diving through obscure sourcebooks = power. It's the same problem as the Chameleon. If it's balanced after people dive through all the sourcebooks and find the class with the spells at low enough level that they care - then the class is way too much work.

If it's balanced with people selecting spells off the normal lists, it's probably broken as soon as people remember that catch-up lists like Demonologist, Mortal Hunter, Blighter, and Death delver exist. It's simpler and better if you just limit it to classes that operate on the normal progression. There's no reason to let people ransack the Assassin or Adept list for power.

I must've missed that thread. But--and I know this probably answered in the thread proper--if the check's only made once per week, then what difference does it make that this can be done multiple times per day?

The importance isn't in how many times you can do it - the point is that you can do it at all. In Oriental Adventures there's a feat that allows you to make an Iajitsu Focus check instead of another roll only once per day - and it's broken as fvck. The concept has been named "Anything Goes Martial Arts: (fill in blank)" In honor of Ranma. You can now do literally anything, as long as you only do it once per day.

But most things are only done once per day. All downtime tasks, from Gather Information to Artificer Crafting to Profession to Contact Other Plane sanity rolls are done on a daily or even weekly basis. Most noncombat tasks, from Diplomacy to Knowledge are done on a highly irregular basis.

With only one skill to max, the Anything Goes Martial Arts Chef, the Anything Goes Martial Arts Librarian, and the Anything Goes Martial Arts Contract Lawyer are all the same man - and it's both insulting and frustrating to the other players. The Anything Goes Martial Arts Mason is actually better at masonry than the dwarf who has been putting ranks into Craft (Masonry) since first level, and he'll just be an Anything Goes Martial Arts Salesman tomorrow. He doesn't even care.

It's like how the Wizard Necromancer cries every time a Cleric of Oliadammra gets up in the morning and decides that they need an army of the dead so they prepare a couple of animate deads, a general of undeath, and a desecrate just after breakfast - instantly getting a larger and better undead army than the Wizard has with no outlay of class features at all. Only it's for skills.

I think there should be a minimum for most things otherwise the class feature becomes crap. This way an ill-prepared character can use it and still benefit from it… just not as much as prepared character. It keeps the choice a viable option--perhaps not the best one, but an option.

If something is mandatory - like a Paladin's Divine Grace, sure. But if it's an option off a list of powers, what's the fvcking point?

But you got me wrong. I'm suggesting that Int Bonus (minimum 3) is a stupid mechanic - you might as well just write "3". You should either write "Int Bonus + 3" or you should write "3". Don't use stat modifiers with non-one minimums, it makes for bad curves.

Are there huge bonuses to the Perform skill in core? And, really, it would just force the wizard to cycle through his spell list until the bard ran out of uses per day; next round, the wizard's blazing away as normal.

The problem is that that is after the combat is over. If a Wizard can't cast magic for even two consecutive rounds, he might as well not even be in the fight. He's a commoner in a bathrobe aside from the mighty cosmic power. If one heckler is going to completely dominate him like that, he's useless.

I know that Counterspelling is craptastic. But this isn't the answer.

There's more to winning than one failed saving throw.

Actually, no. That's winning right there.

---

BTW, there's already a mechanic in which Wizards gain Intelligence and Bards gain Charisma - it's called going up in level. Every four levels, you add a stat point. There had better be a really compelling reason for stats to inflate more than that, and you haven't provided any. You're just driving the Save DC Arms Race even faster, and I don't see the purpose.

-Username17

[RandomCasualty]

1145318129[/unixtime]]
For every campaign like "24" where the entire game from start to finish takes place in one day and therefore a "once per day" ability is usable once ever (which sucks), there's a campaign where the PCs are under no particular time pressure and therefore a "once per day" ability is usable once per combat (which rocks). That's why I don't consider it a good argument that something is balanced if it's only usable once per arbitrary time period.

Yeah, honestly I'd prefer to see abilities written as X/encounter or X/adventure.

I hate the X/day format, because it's totally campaign dependent.

[dbb]

If the class is only "supposed" to go through the cleric, druid, and wizard spell lists (and I suppose Paladin and Ranger if you care), that's fine, but I agree that you might as well put that restriction in the class text. It closes a loophole, and it doesn't actually do anything you didn't want the class to do already.

You could put in a creativity escape clause, like "The DM may choose to allow the bard to select from the spell lists of other classes available in his campaign" if you want to be a completist about it, but I figure most people will take that as read.

1145338999[/unixtime]]
The problem is that that is after the combat is over. If a Wizard can't cast magic for even two consecutive rounds, he might as well not even be in the fight. He's a commoner in a bathrobe aside from the mighty cosmic power. If one heckler is going to completely dominate him like that, he's useless.

Actually, if I'm reading this right, the wizard is supposed to get to try again with a different spell in the same round (and of course the limit on immediate actions means the bard can't counter the second try). So it's sort of an ability that makes the NPC wizard cast his second choice spell every round:

If the bard wins the opposed check, the spellcaster cannot cast that spell this turn (the spellcaster does not lose the spell and may attempt to cast a different spell this turn).

At least, that's what the combination of "that spell" and "this turn" suggests is supposed to happen. So -- depending on how much of a cheesehead your DM is -- that could be either really good or completely worthless.

Then again, it also doesn't explicitly give the enemy spellcaster back the action he presumably spent trying to cast, so maybe this is just the exception written in for people who Shapechanged into a Chronotyrin. I'm not actually certain.

BTW, there's already a mechanic in which Wizards gain Intelligence and Bards gain Charisma - it's called going up in level. Every four levels, you add a stat point. There had better be a really compelling reason for stats to inflate more than that, and you haven't provided any. You're just driving the Save DC Arms Race even faster, and I don't see the purpose.

It probably ought to be an Enhancement or Inherent bonus -- then we could get rid of one more piece of equipment that isn't very interesting and is the #1 thing most spellcasters want.

--d.

[Neeek]

1145342945[/unixtime]]
Yeah, honestly I'd prefer to see abilities written as X/encounter or X/adventure.

I'd probably avoid anything like X/adventure. Anything that's good enough to make that worthwhile will have to be overpowered when it is used or just not be worth having. X/encounter is good though. You'd have to define encounter, but that not too big a deal. I'd probably go with "An encounter ends when the game breaks out of initiative" or something.

[Hey_I_Can_Chan]

It's simpler and better if you just limit it to classes that operate on the normal progression. There's no reason to let people ransack the Assassin or Adept list for power.

Okay. I don't buy it as a core class using core rules that this is unbalancing, but I guess if people were actually going to plug it into their Dumpster-diving campaigns wherein they allow all the crazy, fvcked-up crap from the Book of Exalted Deeds, the Book of Vile Darkness, and all then this'd be a problem. Whatever. Easy fix.

The importance isn't in how many times you can do it - the point is that you can do it at all. In Oriental Adventures there's a feat that allows you to make an Iajitsu Focus check instead of another roll only once per day - and it's broken as fvck. The concept has been named "Anything Goes Martial Arts: (fill in blank)" In honor of Ranma. You can now do literally anything, as long as you only do it once per day.

Okay. That I get. The goal is not to outshine the longtime skill monkeys but to let the bard do random crap occasionally, and the Craft and Profession skills both are stupid wrong with this. This, too, can be fixed.

But you got me wrong. I'm suggesting that Int Bonus (minimum 3) is a stupid mechanic - you might as well just write "3". You should either write "Int Bonus + 3" or you should write "3". Don't use stat modifiers with non-one minimums, it makes for bad curves.

This probably isn't the place to ask why this makes for bad curves, so I'll accept that it does and shift things around.

I'll rephrase heckler after going through the D&D glossary and see if I can get the timing issues down.

There's more to winning than one failed saving throw.

Actually, no. That's winning right there.

None of the other conditions makes any difference at all? I mean, jeez, one stupid mirror image spell and this ability's wasted.

BTW, there's already a mechanic in which Wizards gain Intelligence and Bards gain Charisma - it's called going up in level. Every four levels, you add a stat point. There had better be a really compelling reason for stats to inflate more than that, and you haven't provided any. You're just driving the Save DC Arms Race even faster, and I don't see the purpose.

Would an inherent bonus be more palatable?

-------------------------Non-Frank Stuff-------------------------
My preferred measurement issue is X uses per session, wherein a session is measured as four hours of play. Yeah, this can be manipulated by the ruthless and cruel, but why are you playing with them anyway?

[erik]

DnD has more BBEGs than hordes. In 99% of BBEG battles, yes, an auto-fail save or die is the win. You tell him to die and he does it. Epic encounter over. There are fringe cases like mirror image, but that's only for the BBEG who gets initiative first and as his opening bid throws down a particular defensive spell. It is not like the Bard isn't going to notice the Mirror Image and waste his ability. He can delay to do it immediately after someone removes the Mirror Image on the opening round.

Imagine how enjoyable it would be to be a player and face a BBEG who can once per day auto-kill a PC then run away to do it again the next day. Now, imagine how enjoyable it would be to go up against BBEGs in equal number to the party, who each can auto-kill a party member once per day.

Fun!

I totally don't get (mechanically) why the Bard is getting bonuses to Cha. It is only acceptable if it is an enhancement bonus (thus negating a stupid piece of equipment, as dbb noted). That way it doesn't give inherently superior DCs/stats over other classes.

Boosting the bonus on save DCs isn't much different than handing out the an auto-death dealing ability, since no new mechanics are being added to everyone else to let them keep up with DCs.

If you tone down (or remove) a few of those abilties that seem bent on making Bards uberlite, then you'll have a fairly balanced class.

Definitely a different mechanic needs to replace the Cha damage for expensive components. I'd recommend requiring an expensive focus.