A new paradigm for wealth by level

[User3]

My comments so far:

Frank,

Log systems don't work in the RPGA, and they won't work here. If I can blow all on my points on the one thing that's important to me(like my prime stat for a caster), I will. We have all seen the Str 20 half-orc druid(and we cried, did we not?).

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RC,

I'm surprised that you would diss the magic sword of the fighter as an essential piece of equipment. A +5 two handed weapon is +15 damage(with Power Attack and its own bonus) for the same attack modifer as with a guy with a non-magic one. Put that on a guy who can expect to hit three times a round(not an unreasonable assumption), and thats 45 damage a round from just his +5 sword.

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As an alternative to signature equipment for characters who don't want or need the hassle(like Wizards, who honestly don't care if they have a +2 dagger, and only really need the +caster stat item) you can give out spell-like abilties or flat bonuses and price them as unslotted items.

[Username17]

Log systems don't work in the RPGA, and they won't work here. If I can blow all on my points on the one thing that's important to me(like my prime stat for a caster), I will. We have all seen the Str 20 half-orc druid(and we cried, did we not?).

The RPGA doesn't use a Log system - that of increasing returns up to the limit, it uses a system of diminishing returns, which is basically completely the opposite. I'm suggesting, not that you should try to convince people to not put all eggs in one basket by jacking up the prices, but that we should outright ban people from putting all their eggs in one basket by restricting the maximum expenditures in each thing.

And then we should actually make maxing out your stuff advantageous by making it the best deal (a Log system). It makes a better story if there are three meaningful props that change the story in noticable ways than if there are nine props that each hardly change the story at all.

So basically your coment is completely meaningless, because it chastizes my system for doing things which are the polar opposite of my actual suggestions.

As an alternative to signature equipment for characters who don't want or need the hassle(like Wizards, who honestly don't care if they have a +2 dagger, and only really need the +caster stat item) you can give out spell-like abilties or flat bonuses and price them as unslotted items.

One of my suggestions is that spell items should be costed the same way as magic swords. That is, since they really do the same thing, that a magic sword should simply cost you as much as a wand. So the level equipment of the wizard only increases by a staff and a wand or two because he can forgo his use of swords and armor.

Pricing things as unslotted items is retarded, because being "unslotted" isn't very meaningful. The D&D system of costs, tenuous and unmanagable at the best of times, becomes flat hillarious when you take into account the cost modifications available to turn things into a pair of socks instead of a set of shoes.

-Username17

[User3]

Ok, the point buy system you set up is complicated enough that I misread it the first time, and am now merely confused after reading it a second time.

At no point should I have to pull out scratch paper to figure out the most bang for my buck when point buying crap or signature equipment. The system seems to let me make suboptimal choices. That's bad.

How about a system like "one signature item per 5 levels(up to my level). Two items up to half my level(non-sig). Four items at 1/4th my level(non-sig)."

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When I talked about unslotted items, I just meant that there should be an option for people who don't want to, or can't, carry around useful signature equipment (like monks).

I never said that there should be an additional cost for people who want to put things in different slots. (Its dumb and bad RP to have items that don't fit thematically to their purpose, but thats not an issue I'm bringing up. Let them all have socks and underpants of adding Flaming and +4 to weapon attacks and damage for all I care. It works for Final Fantasy XI.)

Basically, what are your options for a wizard who doesn't use DC-based spells, doesn't get into the thick of combat, and doesn't really want to be caster who uses items (since a wizard has so many spell effects that items are rarely needed, if ever)?

[Username17]

It was just some random numbers I pulled out of my ass as an example! The most bang for your buck is to just take the biggest things you can. It's like spell slots that way. You have a slot that can be filled up with a +4 item, so you have the "choice" of getting a +4 item or getting ass raped by a badger. Death or Cake.

It's like a spell slot. Sure you can put a 3rd level spell into a 9th level slot, but that's not what the spell slot is there for. But this is all about level equipment, of course, since signature items are astoundingly difficult to quantify.

As for signature items - I haven't even pretended to come up with some mythical limit on how many or how good they should be. Some characters are like King Arther and only have 1 or 2, some characters are like Sinbad and have like seven. I honestly think that's a game stylistic choice, and would hesitate to impose some kind of hard and fast limit on people.

Basically, what are your options for a wizard who doesn't use DC-based spells, doesn't get into the thick of combat, and doesn't really want to be caster who uses items (since a wizard has so many spell effects that items are rarely needed, if ever)?

Be an NPC? Seriously, if you can't find a use a wand of knock or a staff of clairvoyance, you just aren't an adventurer. If you don't get a sword, you can have rod that casts some spell a limited number of times, because it's basically the same idea.

As for not using DCs... welll... I guess you just aren't in combat, or charming people, or doing anything which affects other creatures - so I guess you just aren't an adventurer and I don't have to care what you do.

-Username17

[Desdan_Mervolam]

Man, I like the idea of Signature equipment, but I think it's safe enough to just hand the players a bag of gold and a dinner menu. If you decide that magic swords and bags of holding are on that dinner menu, you can always say "No more than a quarter of that money can go to any one item". I mean, we're dealing with equipment that by definition doesn't really matter.

-Desdan

[User3]

Since the animal buffs are +4 to your stat, and they add to DCs and don't stack with equipment, you basically are set for that part of your career until level 15 or 16(when a +6 item is available). Sure you loose the first round casting it for a simple +2, but many combats have a round of "lee time" when you might as well be casting a buff. For a 2nd level slot, its useful around 5th level(when you'd be getting a +2 item)

And if you're a DC spell caster, then you are maxxed out with Spell Focus and Improved Spell focus(since 90% of all feats suck for you anyway), and a maxxed stat, so you'll be nailing level-appropriate monsters at least half the time(when casting a spell against a good save) or 3/4s of the time(vs a weak save). The +2 DC can and will be missed for most of your career.

Below are just some combat spells that are very useful and either don't need DCs or high DCs. I won't even talk about the utility spells:

Silent Image. Has a DC, yes. But, if you can divert a monster(or several monsters) to divert one attack(or one a piece) to "interact" with the illusion per round/casting, or you slow some monsters by making them waste a round investgating a burning wall or other obstacle, you have succeeded in using this 1st level spell well.
Scorching Ray: Has a hit roll, no DC or save, and does decent damage to one target.
Invisibility
Haste
Displacement(50% miss chance on a tank is a lot of damage averted).
Fly: A win on any monster without ranged attacks or flight.
Blink
Dispel Magic(an enemy spell dispelled can be a load of damage or insta-death averted).
Black Tentacles
Stoneskin
Polymorph
Solid Fog

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As for finding a use for odd equipment I don't need, then yes, I can do that. I once found a use for a Demon Penny that turned people into vampires, so I'm confident about the rest.

But its still equipment I don't need.

[Draco_Argentum]

To be honest I'd rather dump level based equipment completely. It makes no mechanical difference if your AC is good because you have a ring or a class ability.

[rapanui]

"It makes no mechanical difference if your AC is good because you have a ring or a class ability."

No mechanical difference, true, but there are major story differences. Abilities (in general) cannot be stolen, broken, inherited, cursed, have a history, etc.

[Draco_Argentum]

Correct, but I was talking about level equipment which dosen't get any of that either. Signiture items are the only ones people care enough about for any of that to matter with the proposed system.

[User3]

Abilities can be stolen, broken, cursed, etc. It just requires magic. Good thing we're in a fantasy setting.

I mean, what's the difference with having your +2 studded leather stolen and having someone curse you with -4 AC. Bestow Curse is only a 4th level spell. In those few adventuring situations where you're buck naked, you'll be down an additional 4 AC (Which is hardly ever a statically signifigant situation.)

Regardless of what happens, you'll have to go on a quest to get it back(though Bestow Curse requires a spell the party has and finding lost equipment requires Scrying).

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I mean, some people want to play the Scion of the Sword, with a magic sword of legend, and some people want to play a Blademaster, deadliest man alive with a sword in his hand. One guy has his equipment, and the other needs a flat bonus.

Its like superheroes. Some superheroes have an item(like Thor and his hammer or Cyclops and his Ruby Glasses) and some are just pimp in thier own right(Storm or Rogue).

[Username17]

It's like a form of weapon specialization. People want to be the guy "who wears chainmail" (and I know that chainmail is not a viable strategy in 3e, it was in previous editions), people want to be the guy "who uses two short swords". Etc. etc.

Having pitons wins you adventures, and characters need to have rope if they want to be adventurers. I see nothig wrong with people upgrading that basic adventurer's equipment into having newer and fancier (although still interchangeable) gadgets.

At high levels (or even low levels), sometimes you want to face a serpent cult whose every weapon is jointed along the blade and exudes poison. There's nothing wrong with that, but unless the party's generic equipment is already pretty darned good you'll have to have just given one or more signature items to every single member of the party every time you do that.

Think of it like James Bond. Some of his cool stuff goes from movie to movie, but most of it is just a transient cool gadget that he'll use in one movie and then never use again.

Unless the party walks around in armor which is as interchangeable as their pitons and rope, yet still really good in and of itself, they'll necessarily loot and wear the clothing of every eemy with a cool shirt they come across - and then everyone will rapidly get covered in signature items, thus violating the whole damn point of the exercise.

People need the existence of armor and cloaks that give modest bonuses which are nonetheless just adventuring equipment - like lanterns or chalk or 10 foot poles.

-Username17

[User3]

I see signature items like this:

Two fighters have completed an adventure. One guy killed a death cultist with an intelligent flaming dagger that tore them a new one. Both went up in level and need an increse in equipment.

Fighter A decides to master the evil blade and bend its power to his will. It takes a few months of downtime.

Fighter B takes this time to master the Benedetti technique of swordfighting.

Both got some bonuses.

Fighter A got a Flaming +2 dagger that does sword damage and Fighter B increased his sword attack bonus to +2 and now can now add the Merciful (d6 subdual to his attacks) to his sword damage.

Both gained appropriate bonuses for their levels.

[RandomCasualty]

1089180577[/unixtime]]To be honest I'd rather dump level based equipment completely. It makes no mechanical difference if your AC is good because you have a ring or a class ability.

The thing is that you also have to dump item creation too, or at least any mechanics to item creation. If you dump level based equipment, then everything has to be put in the hands of the DM, like 2nd edition.

The DM basically can have free reign to hand out whatever he wants, and magical items are just add-ons to what you normally have.

As soon as you get PCs who can make items or the ability to buy items with gold, well then you have a problem because your whole system breaks down.

That said, I'd like to see class abilities get a good majority of bonuses and be competetive in and of themselves. That would let DMs who want to run a low magic world actually have a chance at doing so.

[The_Hanged_Man]

Why does that follow?

D20 modern has almost no significant help from equipment. You can get masterwork and ubermasterwork guns, and slightly better guns. And slightly better armor. Wooooooo hooooooo.

Instead, you get class-based AC bonuses and special feat thingies that help you do stuff. The DM can't do squat, esp. since wealth is figurative and you can get literally anything by spending enough time and loot looking for it.

I think that's all Draco's saying. Level power doesn't need to be based on wealth; if AC needs to increase w/ level, make that a level-based mechanic, not a hurdy-gurdy wealth adjunct that scales roughly with wealth.

[Username17]

D20 modern has almost no significant help from equipment.

And D20 Modern blows, what's your point?

On a more serious note, things in a fantasy setting are, in general, more fantastic in the available equipment. You go to cloud cities where people float around on flying carpets, you go to underwater cities where people need special pearls in their mouths just to breathe. And so on and so forth.

Equipment available in the world is much more varied, and in many ways a much bigger deal than it is in any kind of recognizable "modern" world. In a modern world there is an entirely achievable nuclear bomb in a suitcase. It's real, it kills absolutely anyone regardless of armor and anyone who really wants one can have one. Many people in the world can make them.

So in a modern world, the whole thing of weapons and special equipment and such is basically meaningless. You don't have to quest for scuba gear, you can buy it in a store. There's nothing in the entire world which is especially cool that you couldn't buy for a billion dollars. And there are people that have a billion dollars.

And in a fantasy world, that's not true. Equipment does stuff which is way beyond what anything in the real world does, and at the same time you can't order any of it over the internet.

In a modern world, villains show up with jeans and sneakers and you don't loot them off their bodies because you just don't care. In a fantasy world, however, people are simply going to be running around with heatless torches or fire resistance cloaks and you do care - because your character isn't wearing those right now.

Everything is "magical" in a magical world, which means that nothing is "generic". The only way to make people not become a ginormous list of all the crazy equipment they've ever seen is to either continuously dick them out of equipment or to shunt the majority of this whacky stuff into the transient equipment category.

Now maybe you like dealing with PCs who have 65 different magical doo-hickies, but I don't. The entire concept of equipment slots was designed to prevent peoples' equipment list from getting too crazy long, and it didn't work. My suggestion, however, just might.

-Username17

[User3]

I've always liked the mechanic where a person can only keep X amount of junk from kicking his butt at one time.

Excaliber never gets picked up and used by Lancelot or all those other dudes is because its hardcore and its Arthur's and/or The Lady of the Lake's. She spent x amount of her mojo on it and Aruther spent X amount of his mojo, and she not letting some other dude be the guy who gets to use it (since only Arthur fit her finicky criteria).

Magic items are not supposed to be technology. Special people are required to use these items. Rather than loot the smoldering magic sword on the ground dropped by the demon, you are going to bury it so that some poor shmuck doesn't come along and get his soul burned out. The cloaks of fire resistance dropped by the Order of the Flame might set you on fire.

It makes for better stories that way. I hate shopping list items. I like signature items. I don't mind that the swag dropped by the last guy is unusable to me without a lot of work and sacrifice. But, I defend my right to put it in my batcave until such time it can become part of some new story.

[Draco_Argentum]

1089240834[/unixtime]]
I think that's all Draco's saying. Level power doesn't need to be based on wealth; if AC needs to increase w/ level, make that a level-based mechanic, not a hurdy-gurdy wealth adjunct that scales roughly with wealth.

Thats it. Why do rings of protection and cloaks of resistance even need to exist for people to loot. You need those bonuses or something very similar to not suck. Just give them to people as level abilities.

[RandomCasualty]

1089255697[/unixtime]]
Thats it. Why do rings of protection and cloaks of resistance even need to exist for people to loot. You need those bonuses or something very similar to not suck. Just give them to people as level abilities.

Yeah, you could really just hand out most abilities as level bonuses. I mean if you're going to balance everything assuming that a level 8 character is going to have a +3 cape of resistance, then just give all level 8 characters a +3 bonus to saves.

I generally don't like the idea of a shopping list that constantly changes every adventure. It's a great idea for a tournament or other scenario where you want everything to be equal, but in a casual game, I don't think it would be all that fun to play under. Part of the game is acquiring treasure and keeping it. A system that removes all your gathered equipment out of game seems too egalitarian.

I think something more along the lines of what K was saying would probably work better for casual gaming where enemy magical items generally aren't useable by PCs unless they're willing to focus on the item.

Either that or simply make magical items a rare thing. They're never sold, PCs can't create them except with long quests (which is just as troublesome as finding them anyway) and the majority of items found are minor limited use items like potions and scrolls. Major magical items are rare finds indeed, and PCs will likely only find one of those once every 2-3 adventures. Split among the PCs this will end up leaving the PCs with few magical items. However, the magic items they do find will be lots more significant.

I think the true solution probably lies in a mix of these.

Handing out class based bonuses to replace many magical items will go a very long way I think, because you no longer need to equip NPCs with them for them to be competetive. That effectively gets your world on a magic diet already.

Limiting magic items means that PCs item lists aren't very big and when they do find a magic item it means more.

Having your major signature items require some kind of payment to use is also a great thing, because it lets evil NPCs weild super items and the PCs may not automatically want to pay to use them.

[User3]

Yeah, you could really just hand out most abilities as level bonuses. I mean if you're going to balance everything assuming that a level 8 character is going to have a +3 cape of resistance, then just give all level 8 characters a +3 bonus to saves.

I generally don't like the idea of a shopping list that constantly changes every adventure. It's a great idea for a tournament or other scenario where you want everything to be equal, but in a casual game, I don't think it would be all that fun to play under. Part of the game is acquiring treasure and keeping it. A system that removes all your gathered equipment out of game seems too egalitarian.

I think something more along the lines of what K was saying would probably work better for casual gaming where enemy magical items generally aren't useable by PCs unless they're willing to focus on the item.

Either that or simply make magical items a rare thing. They're never sold, PCs can't create them except with long quests (which is just as troublesome as finding them anyway) and the majority of items found are minor limited use items like potions and scrolls. Major magical items are rare finds indeed, and PCs will likely only find one of those once every 2-3 adventures. Split among the PCs this will end up leaving the PCs with few magical items. However, the magic items they do find will be lots more significant.

I think the true solution probably lies in a mix of these.

Handing out class based bonuses to replace many magical items will go a very long way I think, because you no longer need to equip NPCs with them for them to be competetive. That effectively gets your world on a magic diet already.

Limiting magic items means that PCs item lists aren't very big and when they do find a magic item it means more.

Having your major signature items require some kind of payment to use is also a great thing, because it lets evil NPCs weild super items and the PCs may not automatically want to pay to use them.

But this doesn't solve the problem, now instead of a huge list of items you have a huge list of abilities.

[Draco_Argentum]

You have a huge list of simple bonuses already. They could be consolidated though so there'd be only one increase to each number rather than several smaller ones. If lvl 15 characters need at least an AC of 35 to not suck then thats what they should get. There isn't any point into having multiple named bonuses to do it.

[Desdan_Mervolam]

We already have a huge list of abilities. We call them, feats, spells and classes. And with every book that comes out, the list gets bigger. Another bladderfull of piss in the ocean's not gonna flood the earth.

-Desdan

[User3]

But it's not just bonuses it's also things like the magic carpets and pearls Frank mentions above.

[Username17]

Thats it. Why do rings of protection and cloaks of resistance even need to exist for people to loot. You need those bonuses or something very similar to not suck. Just give them to people as level abilities.

Because if people don't have cloaks of protection, they'll loot the cloaks of fire resistance that the Feurkriegling Cultists wear.

People have stuff which grants them bonuses on their body slots because otherwise combat looting doesn't have a cost. If your cloak slot is worth +2 to your saves, you'll think twice about wearing one of the darkness cloaks that all the dark ones wear - and if it isn't you won't.

There's two things that you want to keep to a minimum:

* Combat Looting.
* Swag Accumulation.

Combat looting happens because somebody you take down happens to be using something which is strictly superior to what you are currently using. Swag accumulation happens because people find items which can't be gotten again and thus must be neurotically saved against some hypothetical future need.

Combat Looting slows down the game because people exhaustively compare all kinds of crap to things they already have in order to see if they can achieve a better combination of doo-hickies with the new found stuff after every combat. It is therefore bad, because it causes people to do logistics exercises in the middle of gaming session rather than between game sessions when they won't interfere with other players' stories.

Swag Accumulation makes characters unreproducable if their sheet is lost, as well as incomprehensible (and therefore boring) to the other players and the DM. It is therefore bad, because it directly fights with suspension of disbelief. If other players don't know that you have the crystal swan of plane shifting, they won't be able to prepare themselves to accept your use of it, and therefore their suspension of disbelief will necessarily be harmed when you use it. And you can rest assured that when you have 83 things, other players will forget that you have it, and that's the same for these purposes as not knowing in the first place.

So if there aren't cloaks of protection to begin with, the combat looting will necessarily continue until swag accumulation has presented you with a signature item that happens to be a cloak that protects you... All of which can be nipped in the bud neatly at the start by just having people have standard equipment that happens to take up a cloak slot and grant a bonus. And standard equipment should definately grant bonuses rather than unique special powers because otherwise "unique special powers" won't be unique or special.

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That being said, while +2 Armor is therefore a required game feature, a Ring of Protection is not. Since a ring has no "normal use", and is not a standard piece of adventuring gear when not augmented by magical powers, there's no pressing need for the ring slots to exist. That is, the game would survive just fine if non-signature rings simply did not exist.

There are many magical rings in this world, and none of them are to be trifled with!

Or something like that. See, this is only true for whatever slots that Salamanders use. Salamanders are sometimes horde monsters, and they have big hot magic spears. So players need to have default magical weapons because they are going to have them anyway as soon as they fight salamanders so you might as well get it over with.

But anything that the horde monsters are never going to use, doesn't need to exist as default magical equipment. So you only need default magic rings if someone in the world is going to be using enough rings that players will have default rings. And you can easily set the world up so that that isn't the case.

Weapons need bonuses.
Armor needs bonuses.
Boots need bonuses.
Cloaks need bonuses.
Helmets probably need available bonuses.

But you kow what? There's no pressing need for there to be a finite number of necklaces you can wear. Rings, amulets, even belts, don't even need to be slotted items. They can just be places where only signature items go, and which can accumulate idefinately.

If mooks can have it, it needs to be a slot and it needs to be available with bonuses as standard interchangeable level equipment. If mooks can't have it, it doesn't need shit.

-Username17

[User3]

What's wrong with just saying that you can't use magic items found unless you spend some mojo to master them(or roll well on a Use Magic Device check to activate its powers for a round)? They could grant a negative level(or more) if carried, so people won't have a bag of magic rings in their pocket (and it'll kill any donkey they keep it on).

That way people could use found stuff for a round or two, but wouldn't have an incentive to keep it around except in their batcave.

Use Magic Device would have to become an untrained skill, and it would have to backlash on something like any base roll of 1-5.

Potions and scrolls would grant a negative level if more than say four are carried. They should have a time limit. Potions dry out if not used in 4 months, and scrolls fade into mere spells written onb scrolls in the same time. that way hording would be elminated.

[User3]

That's me above.