A new paradigm for wealth by level

[Username17]

What's wrong with just saying that you can't use magic items found unless you spend some mojo to master them(or roll well on a Use Magic Device check to activate its powers for a round)? They could grant a negative level(or more) if carried, so people won't have a bag of magic rings in their pocket (and it'll kill any donkey they keep it on).

Several things:

1> That's more complicated than the system I'm proposing.

2> It causes people to have a sled they carry behind them covered with magic items - which is stupid looking and therefore undesirable.

3> It bizzarely overpowers rogues at high level.

4> It removes the ability to disarm the evil knight and kill him with his own sword, which is awesome.

In short: it's a terible idea.

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Note: you can actually quite easily combine the concept of Level Equipment and special abilities. Characters who don't have one or more slots also get less level equipment but can get compensatory abilities.

So if you have a player character Sphinx, who therefore cannot use boots or helmets or magic armor - they don't get those slots, they get less starting equipment for each adventure, and they get some flat bonuses. So they have the advantage that their bonuses can't be taken away, but the cost that they can't use superior (or merely different) equipment found along the way during an adventure.

Should be about even.

Your PC cockatrice has no item slots and has little adventuring equipment and some compensatory bonuses which rise with level. Your PC Minotaur has lots of adventuring equipment, and thus gains his compensatory bonuses from that equipment which will get better with level.

-Username17

[User3]

Excellent. I'm playing Green Slime. What bonuses do I get?

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Mmmm, that sled idea was not expected, which is major flaw. Ok, so another idea is needed.

When I think of magic item stories, I tend to think of them being made for special people, and dangerous for others to mess with.

How about just making magic items class features? Thier passive powers end 2d4 rounds after they have been taken from the person to whom they belong to, and active powers require a Use Magic Device roll during that time(DC based on power of item). If you want to use it you have to take it as an item. Items will have to be found or created to get their powers, and some spells or powers will let you corrupt item's powers(like an evil cleric can desecrate a holy weapon and make it unholy).

Use Magic Device will be used more to fool magical traps or spells into thinking you fit a criteria (so a rogue could fake being Evil to bypass a Glyph or something).

Potions and scrolls will still have the time limit, and be usable by anyone.

Magical traps and powerful plot items will have to be intelligent (in the DnD sense, with Egos and goals and such) for them to be part of he usual "magic item story." In this way the Monkey's Paw can totally screw you not because of a mechanic, but because it hates you.

Potionmaker or Scrollmaker feats will let you carry around X numbers of scrolls or potions. Item creation feats will free you from the "and we get class features from the tiems we find" problem. Signature items will grow in pwoer with the level of the guy.

[Username17]

Excellent. I'm playing Green Slime. What bonuses do I get?

Bonus unarmed damage comparable to using a weapon, bonus AC comparable to wearing armor, and a small number of assignable bonuses choosable off a list comparable to using the basic equipment for a character of your level.

There is no reason in principle why a sapien puddle of green goo should not be a playable character in a fantasy game. Can Odo adventure? Hell yes he can, and in the show where he was stuck in liquid form he still totally adventured.

How about just making magic items class features?

What do you mean "just"? Your system doesn't even allow for the mook use of magical equipment - which means it doesn't work. The Cultists of the Serpent God Cathulthek use special magic serpent daggers. That's what they do. And they don't have to take some funky prestige class to do it, everyone gets one just for joining up. And if your system can't handle that, and your proposal can't, it doesn't work.

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It is absolutely required that people be able to pick up a serpent blade sight unseen and stab someone in the back with it. This is an absolute, nonnegotiable, dramatic fvcking necessity. If it is even difficult for the newly rescued princess to stab the priest with his own magic dagger the system is a total unmitigated failure.

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That being said, the mechanics for how people go about gaining and keeping magical items, especially in the long run, are totally wide open. But if there's a prop on the stage, it has to be usable in that scene. It doesn't have to be on the stage in the next scene, and you don't have to mention it again, but if the prop is on the stage now, it has to be usable now.

Systems which involve doing your taxes before you can use a magic sword don't work, because they put a prop on the stage and then don't let it work. That's bad stage direction. Systems which involve making Use Magic Device rolls before you can do things don't work - it's just like now except that all of the swag accumulation comes in a huge pile at 10th level to the Rogue only. Which means it has all of the problems of the current system except that the Rogue gets all the magic items the party ever finds at level 10 all at once. So not only does the rogue have too much stuff for anyone to keep track of - but he effectively hasn't even had it for like 4 whole levels so everyone has really forgotten what all that crap does before he starts rumaging around in the santa sack for a killer app.

Sorry, but your whole idea of keeping a giant list of everything in the bat cave that you masturbate over and sometimes pull something out of is a complete non-starter. In reality that entire "bat cave" is in fact a wagon that is owned by the party Rogue, and rummaging around for the killer app is something that the party rogue is going to do so frequently that he doesn't even have a schtick anymore.

We don't want sword caddies. We don't want piles of ginormous wads of weird crap that we can't even remember. We don't want the rogue to arbitrarily have every magic item the party ever finds. Characters should not, in their entire lives get more unique equipment than the rest of the party can remember and should not ever be encouraged to store or not use any unique equipment that they find.

-Username17

[User3]

Green slime is non-motile and non-sentient. I was joking.

The only way its coming alive is with an Animate Object/Permanency/Awaken Construct(maybe).

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Frank,

Read carefully.

My revised system as per my last post does all of those things you stated in your last post as complaints. Did you even read it? I read your post, noted your objections, and revised in the light of useful feedback. Try it sometime.

Maybe I wasn't being clear about the revised sytem.

That being said, I have listed below how your above post is a complete fraud. My previous post says that:

1. Magic items lose power a short time after the person whose class ability it is to use them is not using them. The rogue is not going to get Use Magic Device checks to activate anything in a cart, and no sword caddies will exist at all except as museum pieces(kept in museums). I picked 2d4 rounds as a number out of a hat that feels good. Fill your pants with magic rings. It won't matter.

2. The princess can in fact stab the evil priest with his own dagger in a fight. With my system she must make a Use Magic Device check to make it turn into a serpent (active power), and she can use its passive powers all she wants (+2 Acidic dagger) while still under the time limit. She cannot hide it under her dress for half the story, and then whip it out to stab the guy and hope that the Acid stuff still works. Thats just good mechanics and good storytelling.

3. Keeping magic items in your batcave under the revised system is just a slight bonus over having to go on a quest for an item or finding a mage to make it for you. You still have to spend class features to get the item to be anything more than a nonmagical prop.

So if you personally keep a list of magic items, and after you level some day in the future you can then declare: "I have finally learned the Serpent's Truth, and I have mastered the art of using a Cultist of the Serpent God's dagger", then that is very cool and reminds everyone of a cool adventure you had in the past.

There might be bit of the "WTF?s" going around, but I see this as being no different from Lion-O discovering a new power in the Sword of Thundara (which is supported under this system). With the item(s) just being a focus for class abilities, it won't matter if you hire a wizard to make you a new item or you use the powers of an item that already exists, or add thematically appropriate powers to an old item. Items will have "base powers" that are the base buy-in for the item you get once you start to use it, and you can get more powers as you go up in level and invest class features into them.

4. Power will be based on class level, and in that sense will be a class feature. So I wasn't blindingly crystal clear on that, and you might have been mistaken. Mooks get X amount of magical stuff which does not change at all (except for potions and scrolls), just like PCs.

5. One shot items like potions and scrolls will have a time limit, and so cannot be horded from story to story. One shot items can even be stretched to go as far as wonderous items or weapons. Building a dragon slaying sword that will last one battle(against the boss dragon) is also OK.

6. Intelligent magic items will be magical all the time, but since they are willful and intelligent, they aren't really the kind of magic item you are worrying about. Since they will in fact be creatures, they will have the option of not providing you with power if you are not serving their agenda.


How is this not a perfect solution? What options were left out? I can and might revise it once more if you give useful feedback again, or clarify if something is confusing.

[Username17]

Read carefully.

My revised system as per my last post does all of those things you stated in your last post as complaints. Did you even read it?

Yes, I read it.

The rogue is not going to get Use Magic Device checks to activate anything in a cart, and no sword caddies will exist at all except as museum pieces(kept in museums).

You said that Use Magic Device rolls could be used to activate the powers, which I took to mean that UMD could be used to activate the powers. Since you apparently meant that Use Magic Device could not be used to activate powers I'll just have to go back and say that any system which makes you find the Holy Grail and then throw it in the dumpster because noone in you party is going to be high enough level to attune it in the near future is retarded.

She cannot hide it under her dress for half the story, and then whip it out to stab the guy and hope that the Acid stuff still works. Thats just good mechanics and good storytelling.

This is neither good mechanics nor good storytelling, it's total ass. The princess is a princess, she doesn't have use magic device, and any system that requires her to so that the story can move forward is asstastic. The princess may need to wait for the ceremony to reach a dramatic conclusion before the priest is helpless in the middle of his big ritual - and any system that penalyzes you for waiting for a dramatic moment before acting is ass backwards.

With the item(s) just being a focus for class abilities, it won't matter if you hire a wizard to make you a new item or you use the powers of an item that already exists, or add thematically appropriate powers to an old item. Items will have "base powers" that are the base buy-in for the item you get once you start to use it, and you can get more powers as you go up in level and invest class features into them.

In short, under your latest revision there is no reason to ever collect magic items under any circumstances and you should just throw them away as you find them. In short, you just spent a really long time poorly explaining that you wanted Catharz's system, and all of my original objections still stand. If there's no reason to ever pick up a magic item, there's no reason to ever have magic items in your game. They are no longer special, they are just a really weird list of prestige class options.

How is this not a perfect solution?

Because it is exactly and in all ways like the system I proposed except:

1> You can't pick up an assassin's venom dagger at the beginning of a story and then use it dramatically at the end of the same story.

2> The DM is unable to reward players for successful quests with the introduction of additional magic items unless those magic items can talk.

3> There is more paperwork to keep track of.

4> There are less options in the story reasons for where the ice shards that the frostlings use as short swords go to between adventures (in that in your system there is only one).

5> It involves more dice rolling, thanks to the need to make UMD checks all the time.

6> It encourages more Video Game Style Go Go Go! encounter rushing, because there is a strict and short time limit between the time you take down a set of villains and the time you can no longer squeze bonuses out of their stuff.

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All of those changes are bad. Every single damned one of them. "How is this not a perfect solution?" isn't even funny. The question here is how you ever thought this was a good idea...

-Username17

[User3]

Point by point:

1. Your system has the same issue, except worse. Are you going to tell each player "OK, now this story is over and now you can't use any of those items." Stories evolve often over several "adventures," or battles, so your system is actually the one with sword caddies. My system, by limiting the item to being used in one battle, prevents people from keeping every magic object they find during the course of the whole adventure in their pocket until the last battle in the hopes that its useful.

By the time three battles have happened, I've probably forgotten that the Ice Mephit Lord had an Icy Small Shield, and the guy from six battles ago had a Venom dagger, and the guy from nine battles ago had a Lightning Rod, and now you are using all of that crap vs the Firelord boss monster for the adventure.

2. You will keep some items because then you don't have to go on a quest to find an item like that or find a wizard who can make that kind of item. Basically, you will have already done the quest requirement.

Items will have a variable buy-in, so you might have to wait a few adventures before you can use an item. You can and might collect every magic item you find, but since 99% will never be useful to you, and you won't be able to switch out the ones you do choose as class features, thats not an issue and basically only a paperwork hassle for the collector. Some people play wizards and like it, so we're all not paperwork-phobes.

3. How is this less paperwork than going through the DMG every adventure to buy more items as well as writing down the powers of all the stuff you found in the adventure that might be useful before the final battle?

4.

There are less options in the story reasons for where the ice shards that the frostlings use as short swords go to between adventures (in that in your system there is only one).

I don't understand the question. Are you complaining that my system fixes Balor Sword farming and other craziness where you steal a monster's signature item for power?

5. UMd checks are only required when you steal an opponent's magic stuff in battle and try to use its active power(one that requires a standard action, like shooting laser beams). Is this going to happen in every battle and be a huge problem?

This is a not even an argument.

6. This might be a concern. Maybe. I sincerely doubt that people are going to rush forward to use equipment almost as good as their own, but whatever. A simple "and when the dude dies his stuff no longer works" clause works fine with me. Since the items are a class feature anyway, it makes sense.

Unnumbered concerns:
Yes, the Holy Grail will not be some piece of junk that you keep in the bottem of your backpack and pull out when you sprain your ankle or scrape your knee. It should be an intelligent item or an artifact.

Intelligent items don't need to talk. They merely need a will and a purpose. The Sword of Demon Slaying should only want to slay demons, and so would be great when you found it during your adventure in the Abyss, and then not work when in the Elemental planes. Legendary items should only be used for the purpose that was the reason they were put into the story.

The Holy Grail should not work for a cadre of demons to heal evil guys, or for a bunch of adventurers trying to making money in a war. Its a plot device, and will work for as long as it applies to the plot.

The items I am classifying as intellident items are general plot devices. The evil cultist can have a dagger plot device if thats going to be the only way he can die. It should have a purpose/plot device like "kills the villain and works as his signature weapon" so that it can work vs the evil cultist. Its pretty bad storytelling to use it against the bandits that try to rob you on the way home.

The items I classify as artifacts are their own plot device, and should be the driving force in the story. The One Ring drives the story, and can be used by anyone, and users become as much as part of the Ring's story as it becomes of theirs.

[Username17]

The items I classify as artifacts are their own plot device, and should be the driving force in the story. The One Ring drives the story, and can be used by anyone, and users become as much as part of the Ring's story as it becomes of theirs.

But anyone can use the ruby slippers. Whoever uses them gets some cool abilities, and noone can take them off you while you're alive - but they don't take you over. It isn't "the story of the ruby slippers". It's just a pair of shoes which are pretty cool. Anyone who wears them has an important foot note in their character description "has the Ruby Slippers".

Your "system" doesn't allow for that - so it sucks. Your system sucks, and I'm not even going to pretend it's viable with work. It does not do anything good, and is way too fvcking complicated.

-Username17

[User3]

The ruby slippers send little girls and possibly witches home and are a plot device. They are an intelligent item in that they have a will; they do not let people take them from living owners and apparently only work for chicks.

Plot device items(which I am saying are intelligent items, wince they have a will and a purpose) can be used by anyone who uses them for their express purpose. They are pieces of a story that once used, do not have additional effects. Once the little girl gets home, the slippers vanish or loose power or some other damn thing. They might even only function once (and the witch never got her chance to use them before a house fell on her) and after that only have the power that they look good with a party dress.

Artifact items can be used by anyone for any purpose, but they move the plot on their own accord. Use an artifact, and expect Ringwraiths to come knocking on your door, or some tricksy halfing to find your totally deserted and hidden underground lair and cheat you at riddles. They conveniently can't be destroyed by anything less than an epic quest and just happen to to float(even if made of a pure heavy metal) to some place were fishermen can find them rather than the things just staying at the bottom of the river for all eternity.

Honestly, unless you put limits on what items a person can use, they can and will have sword caddies. Just saying that you can only master the powers of X number of items during your career is enough. If people cherrypick the items they want to learn to master from the enemy swag or design the stuff they really need, they do just fine.

You really are supposed to bury the wraith's life draining blade and leave behind the Pasha's magic robe after you are finished burning the crap out of him and stabbing him to death. The Ice Elemental club is supposed to melt when the Ice Giant dies, and the Ruby Necklace of Dreams is supposed to cut the nuts off of the demon's power when you destroy it (and you are supposed to try to destroy it in combat simply because it will cut the nuts off of the demon).

You are not supposed to say "oh wait, we can't destroy the necklace because we could use it on the dragon at the end of the adventure. Figure out some other way to kill the demon."

You are not supposed to be a 1st level guy and find the blade of a great and ancient samurai lying in the street and not go on an grand adventure based on events spawned by the fact that you have the sword.

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The only way your system can work is if there are no special or signature items, and stuff is routinely broken and destroyed on failed saves and magic items can be bought in shops at a premium price or created with a few days work(not GP or XP) and people drive around in Elemental-driven cars and light their pipes with Imps on a Stick.

Magic items as technology is competely unworkable with signature items. You will have sword caddies. They might be smaller than in standard DnD, but a high level adventure with items for all the NPCs should see at least a half a dozen wierd objects that players will put in their pants while waiting for the BBEG.

Either you can buy your way into magical power or you need to earn it. The two views are irreconcilable(sp?). Your system tries both. Put numbers and use rules to define it, and you will see it too. I'll even help you playtest it. Lord knows my OA character has among the most useless collection of magic crap ever (even after I destroyed half of it).

[User3]

I tend to like K's system better.

Frank's system would be good for the RPGA or any other mass gaming system where you want lots of players all playing on equal resources. It's great for that, but for the average game it has some innate drawbacks which people may or may not want. Specifically these are the problems I see with it:

-Magic item shops must exist, because you can swap out magic items so easily.

-Your world must be high magic, and the amount of magical items are standardized.

-There's lots of paperwork. Everytime you start a new adventure you have to totally start from scratch with your magic items. And regardless of the items you had from before you're still forced to lose them. Tracking a few trinkets you brought back to your batcave is nothing compared to constantly doing math and making sure your equipment equals the new total for your level.

-The system doesn't actually allow you to hand out anything as the DM. In other words, when you win the final battle, all you're getting is XP. This seems somewhat unfulfilling, as it's cool to pick up special equipment. There isn't any real joy of discovery, and no real rewards for people who do well on a quest. I mean I could seriously fail every quest I was given and still have the same amount of valuables.

K's system seems a lot more versatile, and it focuses more on actual magic items that mean something. We don't remember King Arthur because of his set of rings of protection and amulet of natural armor, we remember him because of his one signature item, Excalibur. And the system should work the same way.

The best ways to reduce the oversaturation of magic items is to make most items bound in some way to their owners. The items that aren't may only be useful for a certain plot event or purpose, and afterwards become useless inert junk. Occasionally you may find a general purpose magical item that gives you a permanent bonus but this stuff is rare enough and requires you to expend some kind of signature item slots.

I think that'd work.

[Username17]

-Magic item shops must exist, because you can swap out magic items so easily.

No they don't. the time inbetween adventures is arbitrarily large - so the possible explanations for your new equipment is arbitrarily large. There don't have to be magic item shops. If you want, the equipment could come from your "bat cave", or be the stuff you managed to haul back from your last adventure (the one that happened in between the last one you actually role played and this one), or whatever.

K's system requires a "bat cave" - which since many characters are "wanderers" is kind of ass. My system can support literally any explanation for character reequipping you can imagine.

-Your world must be high magic, and the amount of magical items are standardized.

I don't even understand this complaint. It can support things considerably less high-magic than D&D's standard. And since the signature items are not standardized, the level of magic is considerably more adjustable than K's system.

-There's lots of paperwork.

I'm not going to argue that, because there is. But K's system requires that you do the paperwork on whatever magic items you can support as well - and it requires you to keep track of individual found items and current total money, and all that crap. In my system you only have to worry about minutiae once - and it's between adventures and it can be looked up in a table.

In my system, when you get to 9th level, you do some paperwork, and then you're basically done until 10th level. In K's system the paperwork is continuous because you need to keep a paper trail of all the stuff you've found all the way back to 1st level.

Tracking a few trinkets you brought back to your batcave is nothing compared to constantly doing math and making sure your equipment equals the new total for your level.

That's a good one. It's exactly the same thing except that in one case you can only "buy" the things which are on your giant running batcave registry, and in the other you can "buy" whatever you want. In short, the one is exactly the same as the other except that K has an extra extremely long list to keep track of and I don't.

-The system doesn't actually allow you to hand out anything as the DM.

That's a strange assertion to make. In my system you can hand out signature items that last forever, or you can hand out non-signature items that last until the end of the adventure.

In K's system you can still hand out signature items, but for no reason they all have to arbitrarily be intelligent for some reason. And in K's system you can't hand out equipment that lasts until the end of the adventure.

K's system instead allows you to hand out RPGA style "adventure certs" that allow you to purchase specific items with your running item value - but since you can also simply add powers to items you already had I'm not sure what good this actually does you.

So no, the possibilities for handing out swag to the PCs are increased in my system. In my system you can get:

Non-intelligent signature items.
Equipment that lasts until the end of the adventure.

In K's system you can get:

Seemingly meaningless RPGA-style Adventure Certs.
Completely nonfunctional ex-magic items for you to put in a big pile and have to neurotically keep track of for the next 19 levels of play.

I fail to see how my system fails to give the ability to hand things out to the DM. The only way K's system allows you to get around the wealth-by-level system is with Intelligent Items. I don't even recall Excallibur as having an intelligence or talking at any point, so it seems to fit my interpretation better than his.

-Username17

[RandomCasualty]

I don't really see the whole batcave argument. I mean if you only have a certain number of points to attune items to you, then you wouldn't bother keeping a bunch of crap, you'd only take like 2-3 items in there at a time.

Assuming you can't sell your loot and you can't actually use it, there's no point in keeping 200 useless items around. Sure, you *can* do that, if you really wanted to, just like you could go through the equipment list and buy lots of useless stuff, but people won't bother doing it because there's no practical return. Having 200 ex-magic items around doens't help you, because as I understand it you can't swap your signature item points around from adventure to adventure. Once you choose one, your choice is set, so unless you really want to make an item yours, keeping a batcave of 200 items won't help much.

Carrying around 2 rods of the serpent cult, 1 cloak of the salamanders, and 3 broadswords of the dead gods is pointless if you don't plan on ever learning to master those. So there's no need to ever create a batcave except with items you actually care about, and that's ok.

Bookkeeping wise, Frank's system is lots more complex because it's bookkeeping + math, and you have to do it every adventure. I mean that can be like an hour to two hours of prep time before every adventure even starts where PCs are selecting their crap. Buying magical items for a starting high level character is a painfully long process, especially for PCs that like to min/max. I certainly wouldn't want people always doing that. I don't really think the bookkeeping of K's system would actually cause the game to slow down at all. Where as the bookkeeping required in rebuying your magical items every time would be a tremendous slowdown. It's almost like creating a new character everytime you play.

K's system also seems easier to implement, because it doesn't seem to require a total reworking of magical item prices. Though I could be wrong on that, I haven't seen the specifics. I'm also not sure if I like the repercussions of a log based magic item pricing system in general, because it turns into a matter of "a +5 item is dirt cheap, you just can't buy one, because you can only spend X points on an item." I think you'd run into lots of problems with item costs that way. And not to mention trying to convert the myriad number of items in the DMG into this log system is going to be a collossal task.

Frank's system is obviously much more equal and balanced, but I'm not sure if the bookkeeping is really worth it.

I mean if you want characters to have an AC of 31 at a given level and you assume that part of that comes form rings of protection and amulets of natural armor then just make the benefits class abilities. You really don't need rings of protection peopel have to "buy" between each adventure, you can just throw them onto your basic class stuff. If you then want the signature ring of protection that someone has, because they want to be better protected, then you charge them something for that, and that stacks with everything else, actually making the item special.

[Crissa]

I rather like Frank's idea...

If I get this right; each character has x signature items, and then 'qualifies' for each +x item. Whether it's something from a previous adventure or new, or something he got between bellying up to the table this time and last - they all arrive equipped (as per the adventure).

If you want to keep sourvineers - go ahead. That's up to you. If you want to master the snake dagger from four adventures ago - it can either be a signature item or just one of your standard items. Just ask the DM, or consult the chart.

During the adventure, you either have better stuff, can't use their stuff, don't want to use their stuff - or it's a plot device.

Frank's system seems alot easier, because it can do K's system, just minus all the math.

-Crissa

[RandomCasualty]

1089511721[/unixtime]]
Frank's system seems alot easier, because it can do K's system, just minus all the math.

Frank's system seems a lot more math oriented than K's does, unless I'm misunderstanding them.

Because Frank's system still has minor magical items, the only difference to them is that you pay for them on a log scale instead of an exponential one, but you still assign lots of points for items and you can redistribute those points every adventure. So really it has more math than normal because you rebuy your equipment every session, instead of just spending what you got last adventure and adding it to what you've already got. It seems like a great deal of math to me.

K's system, once you spend the points they're gone, so you only have to worry about spending your signature item points once and once you've got a signature item you've got it. King Arthur doesnt' suddenly decide he wants to reallocate his points to something other than excalibur. And K's system eliminates the minor magical items altogether, because his only signature items are special intelligent stuff that you have to pay to use. The rest of the stuff is temporary stuff that loses its power along the way.

[Username17]

Because Frank's system still has minor magical items, the only difference to them is that you pay for them on a log scale instead of an exponential one, but you still assign lots of points for items and you can redistribute those points every adventure.

How long does it take to create a Champions character?

How long does it take to advance a Champions character with some extra points?

Sure it would take a while to create a 12th level character from scratch, but once you've decided to be the Knight in Shiny Armor, you just consult the table every level to see if your Shiny Armor gets a little shinier. If not, you get some extra Healing potions and move on.

The time it takes to figure out which pieces of equipment of yours get better between adventures is going to be way less than the time spent in the current edition of appraising all the gems and crap you hauled back from the last game session, identifying found items and distributing them to the characters who need them the most, and then trading in various magic items for more expensive magic items that do similar things. And unlike the current edition, when you upgrade your equipment you don't need the DM on-hand to tell you what gems appraise for, and you don't need the other players around to tell you what should be done with the latest amulet of natural armor +1.

The time saved is astounding. Of course, a character has the right to decide that running around in shiny armor with a sword and shield was a waste of time, and what they really want to do is go around half naked on the back of a mount of some kind and stab people with a lance (I can think of a couple of characters who apparently made that exact decision in a number of media sources). Then it will take a little bit to transfer your stuff over. But not really all that long, because your +3 armor is going to transfer into a similar priced item because the price is going to be on the same scale.

So really it has more math than normal because you rebuy your equipment every session, instead of just spending what you got last adventure and adding it to what you've already got.

There's no difference unless you radically change your character. While you have the option of dropping the shield and getting a bunch of potions instead, the vast majority of people are simply going to upgrade their +3 shield to a +4 shield as soon as they can, at which point they are just "spend what they got last adventure and adding it to what they've already got".

-Username17

[User3]

With Frank's system, I could see people saying "Well, I'm ninth level now. Can I trade in the +2 shield for the Ring of force shield and the Amulet of natural armor +3, or should I get a Natural armor +1 and keep my old shield, or should I get a Shield +3, or should I get keep my old shield and get a cloak of protection. Are Rings of protection cheaper than cloaks? Hold on guys, I need a calculator, a pen, some scratch paper, and an hour to work this out. Wait, wait, how about a cloak of protection +1, a ring of protection +1, an amulet of natural armor +1, and a +1 shield. Right, that'll work. Right?"

And that's just trading out one piece of armor. Too complicated for me.

-----------------------

OK, it looks like there is some support for my system, so I'll clarify it a bit for a few people who are confused. I hope I don't loose too much support.

Ok, there are four kinds of items in my system:

1. Signature items. These are an X number of items that can master based on level, and their power is based on your level in the sense that you can invest more than their initial cost to increase their power. They include the Sword of Thundara, Alladin's Flying Carpet, and other such items.

You can use a signature item's powers for a few rounds after you take it from the person it belongs to. A Use Magic Device is needed to activate active powers that require an activation action (like using a Wand of Fireballs or activating Wings of Flying).

Other people cannot use a character's signature items after that unless they choose it as one of their own signature items. Several people could choose a single item as a signature item.

These items can be created, or other people can make them for you to use

People who don’t want powers can get slightly smaller abilities. Items that are broken or lost can be traded out for matching but slightly lesser abilities.

2. Temporary items: These are items that are one shot, and their powers fade a few months after made. Potions and scrolls fall into this category. These items can be bought, based on availability.

3. Intelligent items. Almost none of these items talk. Their powers can be used by anyone for their specific purpose, and they have a will and an ego and will not work when used for other purposes. After being used for their purpose, they either vanish, get stolen, they control a user to take them away, loose power, etc. A sphere that opens a Gate to one world may loose power after it sends and returns a party home is one example, and a demon slaying sword that never chooses the same owner twice for a battle before disappearing in a blaze of green fire is another. These items can be created but are most likely found. It should require a quest to find or regain a magic item like this.

Intelligent items are the basis for stories and apply for as long as the story needs them.

4. Artifacts. Artifacts can be used by anyone for any purpose, they send events in motion around them, and they can only be destroyed by a quest.

At no point are they standard equipment. The Green Sword from Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon, the Crystal Shard from the movie or the book (different items and story worlds, same name) and the One Ring are all good examples.


Basically, using this system, I don’t see many people collecting items much. Putting intelligent items in your cave is not going to happen, as they will either not work for you or will find their own way out. Putting signature items in your cave is kinda pointless when you can just increase an item to have or include the same powers of something you found, and the items you do find you can’t use.

Adventurers might hoard vast lists of magic items to eventually master and carry around a huge cart of non-functioning magical equipment, but they are far more likely to cherry pick they items they like for their look or thematic value, and leave the other stuff on the dead bodies where it belongs. Its easier to add the Ghost Touch property to your sword than it is to carry around the wraith’s sword for the day when you might choose to master it and make it useful.

[Username17]

With Frank's system, I could see people saying "Well, I'm ninth level now. Can I trade in the +2 shield for the Ring of force shield and the Amulet of natural armor +3, or should I get a Natural armor +1 and keep my old shield, or should I get a Shield +3, or should I get keep my old shield and get a cloak of protection. Are Rings of protection cheaper than cloaks? Hold on guys, I need a calculator, a pen, some scratch paper, and an hour to work this out. Wait, wait, how about a cloak of protection +1, a ring of protection +1, an amulet of natural armor +1, and a +1 shield. Right, that'll work. Right?"

I couldn't. The number of tricked out items you have is fixed, and the total bonus is equivalently transferable.

So the choice would be: You are ninth level now, which means you can have three +3 maximum items instead of only 2. Furthermore, the number of +2 maximum items you can have goes down by one. (or whatever, I haven't actually written a chart)

So you had a +2 shield, a +3 suit of armor, and a +3 Sword. Now you can upgrade the +2 shield into a +3 shield. Or you can leave it a +2 shield and spend the extra flax on a potion or two, but it won't be enough to get a +1 anything.

So your choice is: upgrade your current stuff, or get additional minor trinkets. At no time are you going to be doing something complicated like you are talking about. Cloaks and Armor and Shields are all precisely equally expensive, so the whole question about moving things between more expensive bonuses and less expensive bonuses has been dropped. There are no special breakpoints at which it is more efficient to diversify bonuses, because your most efficient collection of bonuses is always simply taking the biggest bonus items you can.

Which bonus items those are is completely irrelevent. So if you are the Knight in Shining Armor guy, your biggest bonus item is your armor, and whenever your biggest bonus can get bigger your armor gets bigger and that's the end of it. Unless you totally redesign your character's strategy and appearance, it's going to be the work of moments to upgrade to a new level of equipment.

-Username17

[User3]

Ah, that's helpful.

So now I only have to worry about Bracers of Armor, Rings of Force Shield, Animated +1 Tower Shields, Boots of Speed, +1 AC Ioun Stones, Gloves of Dex, Rods of Flailing, Robes of the Archmagi, spells cast out of a Ring of Minor Spell Storing or from potions, and all the other things that just affect AC and not to mention the things that just make me harder to hit like Cloaks of Displacement(minor or major), Rings of Blinking, Rings of Invisibility and Dust of Disappearance, or assorted potions.

Excellent.

[Username17]

So now I only have to worry about Bracers of Armor, Rings of Force Shield, Animated +1 Tower Shields, Boots of Speed, +1 AC Ioun Stones, Gloves of Dex, Rods of Flailing, Robes of the Archmagi, spells cast out of a Ring of Minor Spell Storing or from potions, and all the other things that just affect AC and not to mention the things that just make me harder to hit like Cloaks of Displacement(minor or major), Rings of Blinking, Rings of Invisibility and Dust of Disappearance, or assorted potions.

Actually, most things on that list you also wouldn't have to worry about because they aren't even available as level equipment. Rings of anything, for instance, aren't level equipment, nor are robes of the archmagi or rods of flailing, or ioun stones for instance.

Anything which does not take up a slot is not level equipment (except for charge items such as scrolls and potions). Anything which provides anything other than a simple bonus is not level equipment.

So you have an item that can grant a +3 equivalent. This can be a +3 set of armor, or a +3 shield, or a +3 Cloak of Resistance, or Boots of Speed +3 (an equivalent bonus to your speed, which had better be a damn lot), or you can not have it and trade it all out for potions, for example.

But you can't trade it out for a Ring of Blinking or even Celestial Armor - that stuff is all signature items only and isn't even part of the system.

The entire set-up of level equipment is so that people can grab stuff off of enemies but that wearing an enemy cloak of fire resistance has a cost (you lose the bonus your cloak slot was already giving), and it never gets completely out of control (because however much stuff you put in your batcave, the stuff you actually have in your pockets at the beginning of any adventure is fixed).

So all this crap about the complications of cost is just blowing smoke, the cost system doesn't even include the complicated stuff. I don't believe that a Ring of Invisibility is actually comparable in any meaningful way to a +3 sword, and I don't believe that a Ring of Invisibility should be common enough that anyone could have one. And most importantly of all, I really believe that anyone who has a Ring of Invisibility should be in some way defined by that fact.

All in all, a Ring of Invisibility is a piece of signature equipment. And honestly, since the entire concept of having limited ring slots is retarded, all rings should be signature equipment. That way you only have 7 rings if you are "the guy who has 7 rings" (and totally fights Iron Man), and the game doesn't give you shit if that's who you are.

-Username17

[User3]

Why even have +anything equipment at all under your system?

Really, your choices are so limited, it seems, that you might as well just reduce the monster's casting and attack stat by 2 points per 4 levels, and then not have any of this crap that means nothing. Zero bookwork for a net loss of nothing.

Really, why am I going to care at all about a system that binds me to just an X amount of +anything crap? If I can't spend my points on anything good I'm not even going to bother. It'll be a whole "Oh right, K forgot to upgrade his +AC item again. We should check his character sheet to see if he's done anything with his stat boosting equipment in the past four or five levels."

[Username17]

Why even have +anything equipment at all under your system?

Because that's the part of the equipment which actually matters and makes sense from a wealth by level standpoint. The AC boosting stuff and the potions is the thing that makes sense when you try to write wealth by level systems.

As soon as you try to fit a Bronze Griffon into that system, the wealth by level sysem completely breaks down for a number of reasons. So we take all the Ebony Flys, all the Rings of Invisibility, all the really cool swag which makes absolutely no sense at all in a wealth by level system out of the wealth by level system altogether.

There's no price approximation on a bottle of air. There's no amount of armor class you can give up which will be a fair trade for it - it's a plot device through and through.

On the other hand, pure bonuses from equipment are important for a number of reasons. When people have to fight without their pants on because they've been taken prisoner or ambushed in the night - they should feel naked. And if people just have a defense bonus they don't.

When people loot enemy soldiers for armor and weapons to disguise themselves with (or protect themselves from heat or cold), this should have a cost. This cost can only come from the armor you were wearing having a bonus on it.

The entire wealth by level system makes sense - for all those little linear bonus items. And people having linear bonus items enhances the game. But making people give up cool stuff to get those linear bonus items because the two are on the same cost system simply makes characters less interesting.

The entire wealth by level concept was instituted to keep players from running around with +5 swords at 2nd level, and this system still does that. What it never should have done, is tied peoples' access to +5 swords to their lack of crystal balls - that's crap. And this system divorces the two so that people get the +x items they need when they need them without making them give up robes of eyes or amulets of the planes for the priviledge.

-Username17

[User3]

Four issues:

1. Basically, if you're handing out a short list of +crap to people vs a bunch of potions, you are going to have only guys who pick potions. Then they gack the first armored guy in magic armor and wear his armor until the end of the adventure, and your system falls apart.

That and the sword caddies they are going to have until the end of the adventure.

In fact, your game will be quite video game-ish. "Sorry, we have to go gack some of the King's men because they always carry +2 plate armor and swords, and then rob the wizard's lair for the wands and potions. Don't worry, they respawn each adventure. We always leave them alive. Then we can gith the lich’s minions"

2. The heroic adventure of this game is spoiled every time someone says "This magic ring is stuck on his finger. We're going to have to cut it off to get the swag" or "we loot all the swag on the bodies" or "we search the cess pit for the magic sword that fell into it" or "lets draw lots to see who gets the +2 cloak of resistance" or "we collect all the swag into a pile and ID it, and put on anything that's better than what we are using." Even having spells like Identify takes something away from the story.

Thats the bad cliche of DnD. Why do you want a system that encourages all the bad cliches?

At least in my system, you won't stumble across a field of dead elves and unicorns and say "let's go check the bodies for magic loot, yo!"

3. Just because you can't keep it doesn't mean you won't stuff every thing into your pocket, and in that way its just as bad as the current system because you can't give NPCs magic items without power inflation for the party. Once they defeat a party of even a few levels lower than themselves they just doubled their magic loot for the rest of the adventure. We’re back to the old “NPCs aren’t allowed any magic loot” system of every version of DnD I’ve ever played.

4. The party can and will combine their magic swag so that the party fighter can have the non-signature +3 sword, dagger, armor, shield, ring of protection, and amulet of natural armor, and the mage, rogue, and cleric each holds a few potions. Your system has fallen apart because its in the best interests of the other characters to spend their disposable magic item quota on making sure the fighter(s) stay alive rather than giving themselves a few extra pluses in combat. He might want that +stat item, but the wise wizard, cleric, and rogue can see the value in having an invincible tank taking all the attacks from the monster over three slightly tougher support characters who can and will reequip with slightly substandard stuff after the first few battles. Unless that fighter is getting +4 signature equipment for all of those kinds of equipment, he’s going to choose party equipment.


Magic items as technology will not work either as a story or as a mechanic.

[RandomCasualty]

Regardless of what system you're using I think it has to be set up where magic items are rare. In other words every NPC doesn't have to have magic items to compete. Rarely you'll come upon a boss NPC who has a magical sword, but mostly the NPCs are normal guys with normal or masterwork gear. If you can achieve that by granting various class based defense bonuses then you'll have won most of the battle right there.

If I can throw together an 8th level fighter with normal full plate and a normal longsword and have him be approx a CR 7 or 8 encounter, then that's pretty good. And I think that's what we should be aiming for. Regardless of if you're using K's system or Frank's system, if you've got people running around in full magic gear, the PCs will exploit it. Even if the magic items vanish at the end of the session or stop working after an encounter or two or require use magic device checks, PCs will always be looting them.

If you want to stop looting of minor encounters, your best bet is to just fix it so that class abilities replace many of the magical item's functions so you dont' need a laundry list of items all the time. That way most of the NPCs they encounter probably aren't going to have anything worth taking beyond normal gear anyway. If you want to limit people taking normal gear, then get rid of extradimensional spaces and spells like shrink item.

I'm all for just getting rid of the magic item shop idea entirely and making all magic items essentially signature and plot device items. It may also be possible to create items with feats, but that would simply be paying feats to gain more magical items, but having magical items be simply lying around is going to make the game into a looters game. Whenever you can commonly expect every foe you fight to be guarding some magic loot, people will constantly be trying to take that loot. You can make that loot vanish inbetween adventures, become inert after a while or require you spent item points to master properly, but people are still going to be taking it, even if it's just for the current quest or to save for a rainy day later when you can master it.

I'm not quite sure if either system is going to eliminate looting bodies. The only way you eliminate looting is to have magic items be few and far between, and when you see one you all look up in awe at it. Generic magic crap can't exist at all. There can't be +1 rings of protection, there can only be "the One Ring". There can't be +1 swords that are sold on the corner market, there's Excalibur and Stormbringer.

Once magic items are no longer on the gold standard, you can pretty much replace the wealth system at higher levels with something similar to White Wolf's wealth system, where you just have a rating from 1-5, telling roughly how rich the guy is. That way you aren't really concerned about scrounging every copper peice, but when you rake in a major dragon hoard that may increase your wealth rating.

[User3]

Under my system:

1. Signature items only last a few rounds after you take them, and one shot items lose power in a few months.

2. The power of your signature items increases with your level.

Based on those two facts, why would you ever loot stuff? The only item you are going to loot are intelligent items that drive the plot, one shot items that (lets face it) suck, and items that you like because of their look or meaning in the story. If you only have like five signature items your whole career, regular guys can have all the stuff and once every three or four levels you might take one item.

[Username17]

I'm going to start ignoring K's system, because I've already said why I think it's crap.

--

In a world where people fight with "a sword" out until 12th level or something, you could actually have a game where people didn't have magic weapons and NPcs didn't have magic weapons, and you didn't loot bodies and everything proceded apace.

But that's not D&D. People are allowed to be "a wizard" as a starting character. A world where magic is rare and special just doesn't jive with that. Low Magic D&D is bullshit, because most of the playable characters can use magic every day whether they actually have magical objects or not.

If you want to make things low magic to the point where any magical item is special, you have to not have basic player character spellcasters. Hell, you can't even have gnomes.

D&D is based from top to bottom on magic being a simple everyday occurance, and pretending it isn't doesn't help anything. Shadows are immune to non-magic weapons, and wizards can magically put people to sleep at level 1. A system by which magic is rare enough that people get by without magic swords would require a complete scrapping of all of the character classes, and all of the magic system, the entire monster manual, and most of the PC races.

You could do that, but that doesn't even count as redesigning the magic item system anymore - that's scrapping the entire game and starting over with a humanocentric medeival combat game.

-Username17

[Lago_AM3P]

Where did the idea that a +2 sword being the bee's knees, in low magic worlds, come from anyway?

I mean, if you listen to these people, entire armies have clashed to gain possession of this thing, when, in D&D terms, it's an additional ten percent to hit on the d20. As in, that's not all that impressive for something that changes the history of the world. As opposed to The One Ring.